A Contractor that wants more! Give me an online Accountancy!
Discussion
SquareEyes,
I'm a little confused how you can espouse the benefits of a service that doesn't even exist yet, but anyway....
There are plenty of accountants out there who specialise in IT contractors business (say, Darren @ Upton or Simon @ SJD). I've used Darren for over 5 years now and never met him, doing everything by email and phone. Oh, and a shoebox of recipts through the post every month. I run all my invoices/spreadsheets/calendar and so on using free OpenOffice. He sends info back in pdf. Most importantly he makes (or saves, I suppose) more money than he costs. I'm not sure how much easier you think it can be doing things online exclusively.
If you miss regular payments (VAT, PAYE, corp tax, company house fees, whatever) you deserve a slap for lack of forethought and for not putting a bloody great X on your calendar
I'm a little confused how you can espouse the benefits of a service that doesn't even exist yet, but anyway....
There are plenty of accountants out there who specialise in IT contractors business (say, Darren @ Upton or Simon @ SJD). I've used Darren for over 5 years now and never met him, doing everything by email and phone. Oh, and a shoebox of recipts through the post every month. I run all my invoices/spreadsheets/calendar and so on using free OpenOffice. He sends info back in pdf. Most importantly he makes (or saves, I suppose) more money than he costs. I'm not sure how much easier you think it can be doing things online exclusively.
If you miss regular payments (VAT, PAYE, corp tax, company house fees, whatever) you deserve a slap for lack of forethought and for not putting a bloody great X on your calendar
I'm only going on what I've seen on their website so far.
What appeals is that everything is in one place so no more moving info back and forth to the accountant via email, no more spreadsheets of invoices, expenses, etc, proper records such as payslips & dividend slips, bookkeeping online. To me this would tidy things up nicely. What appeals a lot is the dividend manager - ok you can't tell for sure what it does from the site but it seems to show a live overview of the businesses finances which is a great concept in my mind.
As for the big X on the calendar and the slap, I'm more than happy to punish myself if I screw up but again, everything in one place just removes some of the hassle of ltd company.
Life is just too busy and I've been limited for over 7 years and frankly it is a pain in the backside. I'd love the convenience of an Umbrella but with the benefits of limited and this seems like a half way house.
Do you really have a shoebox full each month?!
What appeals is that everything is in one place so no more moving info back and forth to the accountant via email, no more spreadsheets of invoices, expenses, etc, proper records such as payslips & dividend slips, bookkeeping online. To me this would tidy things up nicely. What appeals a lot is the dividend manager - ok you can't tell for sure what it does from the site but it seems to show a live overview of the businesses finances which is a great concept in my mind.
As for the big X on the calendar and the slap, I'm more than happy to punish myself if I screw up but again, everything in one place just removes some of the hassle of ltd company.
Life is just too busy and I've been limited for over 7 years and frankly it is a pain in the backside. I'd love the convenience of an Umbrella but with the benefits of limited and this seems like a half way house.
Do you really have a shoebox full each month?!
Well, "shoebox"... no But maybe 20odd days worth of parking tickets, mileage, grub, train tickets, and whatnot mount up.
I guess I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I see no real difference between doing it online, and doing it in your own software on your own machine and talking to a 'real' accountant. I'm far from being a Luddite. Nothing wrong with early adoption, and nothing wrong with using the virtual world not the real world (my business is built on tinterwebnet technologies) but....the advantage of using an established accountant is their reputation. Using a new online service will be (I would suggest) at least a year before you know whether they're good or not... ie whether they've made or saved your business money by offering their service, and not just charged a fee for 'convenience'.
Anyway you asked for other's opinions and they're mine
But maybe 20odd days worth of parking tickets, mileage, grub, train tickets, and whatnot mount up.I guess I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I see no real difference between doing it online, and doing it in your own software on your own machine and talking to a 'real' accountant. I'm far from being a Luddite. Nothing wrong with early adoption, and nothing wrong with using the virtual world not the real world (my business is built on tinterwebnet technologies) but....the advantage of using an established accountant is their reputation. Using a new online service will be (I would suggest) at least a year before you know whether they're good or not... ie whether they've made or saved your business money by offering their service, and not just charged a fee for 'convenience'.
Anyway you asked for other's opinions and they're mine
I've lost count!
Why can't an online service not provide the personal touch? They are probably established accountants branching into something new so probably no different.
Personal touch is never meeting your accountant but having long chats on the phone? I don't want to meet these people but I'm sure these guys would love to chat!
Do contractors rank the personal touch high on the list of priorities for choosing an accountant? A quality and useful service in a language that makes sense is top of my list.
Do the tens of thousands that used MSCs and use Umbrella services worry about the personal touch?
Why can't an online service not provide the personal touch? They are probably established accountants branching into something new so probably no different.
Personal touch is never meeting your accountant but having long chats on the phone? I don't want to meet these people but I'm sure these guys would love to chat!
Do contractors rank the personal touch high on the list of priorities for choosing an accountant? A quality and useful service in a language that makes sense is top of my list.
Do the tens of thousands that used MSCs and use Umbrella services worry about the personal touch?
square-eyes said:
Do contractors rank the personal touch high on the list of priorities for choosing an accountant? A quality and useful service in a language that makes sense is top of my list.
Clearly, some do. I don't think Eric's being particularly defensive, as you imply. If you go back through the mists of time you'll see he's given a lot of advice, for free, to lots of people here. I get the impression he would care about your books if you used him as your accountant. I use Darren Upton because I trust him and he understands the various complexities that make up my particular accountancy requirements. He also happens to explain things in words of one syllable which is handy for a nerk like me.square-eyes said:
Do the tens of thousands that used MSCs and use Umbrella services worry about the personal touch?
Dunno. Personally, I'd rather be in charge of my own business and take advice from people I trust than be treated as a drone, but there you go.And I still don't see what this online thing will do better, or any more efficiently, than a normal IT contractor accountant. Out of interest though, do you have any indicative costs? Couldn't see anything on the website.
Eric Mc said:
zippy3x said:
I think its very much a horses for courses thing - contractor accounts are hardly complex,these sort of accounts can surely be done by relatively junior accountants and book keepers.
I'm tempted to say that you sound extremely naieve - so I won't.The topic completely bores me to death. tbh i'd rather (and do) sacrifice some financial savings to NOT have to learn about accountancy.
I mean no malice - but i'm tempted to think you are making things sound more complex than they are - i recognise it, because i do it - nothing deflects a difficult question from a project manager faster than an overly technical answer about how difficult something is.
I find it hard to believe that doing my books would require anything more than "basic" accountancy skills
Edited by zippy3x on Wednesday 27th February 11:33
bigandclever said:
And I still don't see what this online thing will do better, or any more efficiently, than a normal IT contractor accountant. Out of interest though, do you have any indicative costs? Couldn't see anything on the website.
AccountsNet charge £780 pa (thats for up to 2 employees and a turnover of less the 150k) - I'd be interested to know what your more traditional account charges you?and they have definately saved me more than they charge. They would have saved me even more if i bothered to keep receipts for everything.
I had not intended to post any further on this thread felt I had to respond to the previous post. Unfortunately, once you do go down the limited company route for your business, you are entering a world where the accounts become much more complex compared to a sole trader. That's just the way it is.
All limited company accounts (no matter how small) must comply with the reporting requirements of the Companies Act (which are in the process of massive changes at the moment). Of course, the trader need not be TOO concerned about these things but it absolutely VITAL that the accountant they are using is completely up to speed on disclosure requitrements, layouts and formats required under Company Law.
Just to demonstrate the complexity of company accounts, every time I complete a set of statutory accounts for one of my clients, I have to plough through a fifteen page, six hundred point checklist before they are finalised. This checklist changes every year due to amendments to Company Law and/or new accountancy institute directives or Corporation Tax changes - so I can never rely on last year's checklist to "speed matter along". I have to go through a new list every year for every company client.
Corporation Tax is also fairly complex compared to Income Tax.
In addition to all this, there must be the linking of the individual's personal tax affairs with his corporate tax affairs.
There are good and bad accountants out there. I have picked up so many clients who have been left in an awful mess by poor service fgrom their previous accountants. I like to think that my clients are kept in the know as to what they are doing and what they should be doing. I try to arrange meeting with them BEFORE their financial year ends and/or BEFORE the end of the tax year so we can review where they are and what they need to do to ensure the accounts will be "legal" and fully compliant and that their tax position is optimised.
That is the MINIMUM service an accountancy firm should provide.
All limited company accounts (no matter how small) must comply with the reporting requirements of the Companies Act (which are in the process of massive changes at the moment). Of course, the trader need not be TOO concerned about these things but it absolutely VITAL that the accountant they are using is completely up to speed on disclosure requitrements, layouts and formats required under Company Law.
Just to demonstrate the complexity of company accounts, every time I complete a set of statutory accounts for one of my clients, I have to plough through a fifteen page, six hundred point checklist before they are finalised. This checklist changes every year due to amendments to Company Law and/or new accountancy institute directives or Corporation Tax changes - so I can never rely on last year's checklist to "speed matter along". I have to go through a new list every year for every company client.
Corporation Tax is also fairly complex compared to Income Tax.
In addition to all this, there must be the linking of the individual's personal tax affairs with his corporate tax affairs.
There are good and bad accountants out there. I have picked up so many clients who have been left in an awful mess by poor service fgrom their previous accountants. I like to think that my clients are kept in the know as to what they are doing and what they should be doing. I try to arrange meeting with them BEFORE their financial year ends and/or BEFORE the end of the tax year so we can review where they are and what they need to do to ensure the accounts will be "legal" and fully compliant and that their tax position is optimised.
That is the MINIMUM service an accountancy firm should provide.
zippy3x said:
AccountsNet charge £780 pa (thats for up to 2 employees and a turnover of less the 150k) - I'd be interested to know what your more traditional account charges you?
http://www.uptonaccountants.com/contractors.htm said:
Our contractor package is an all encompassing service to include all the assistance you would normally require during the year including:-
Annual company accounts for tax purposes
Annual abbreviated accounts for Companies House
Corporation tax return
Directors self assessment return including online filing
Monthly payslips & PAYE reports
Online filing of PAYE returns, including registration with the Inland Revenue
Preparation of VAT returns
Production of dividend vouchers
Tax planning
In addition, should you require a mortgage reference, we do not charge clients for this service.
All of the above services come with our service level guarantees and are available at £60 per month plus VAT (£70.50 inclusive).
It happens that I pay annually, rather than on a monthly basis, and it also happens that I pay a couple of hundred less than £720 plus VAT. One difference I can see (and happy to be corrected) is AccountsNet makes no mention of doing the Self Assessment returns? http://www.accountsnet.com/limitedcompany.htmAnnual company accounts for tax purposes
Annual abbreviated accounts for Companies House
Corporation tax return
Directors self assessment return including online filing
Monthly payslips & PAYE reports
Online filing of PAYE returns, including registration with the Inland Revenue
Preparation of VAT returns
Production of dividend vouchers
Tax planning
In addition, should you require a mortgage reference, we do not charge clients for this service.
All of the above services come with our service level guarantees and are available at £60 per month plus VAT (£70.50 inclusive).
I've had a look at their site and there is no mention of the individual partners/directors involved nor is there any indication as to which professional body oversees their activities.
I may just have missed these items but they are usually quite prominent in a professional firm's website.
I may just have missed these items but they are usually quite prominent in a professional firm's website.
Eric Mc said:
I try to arrange meeting with them BEFORE their financial year ends and/or BEFORE the end of the tax year so we can review where they are and what they need to do to ensure the accounts will be "legal" and fully compliant and that their tax position is optimised.
That is the MINIMUM service an accountancy firm should provide.
Thats also the minimum i would expect and would be encompassed by the word "basic" i have been using - i'm a little shocked that a profession that has certification would not expect this to be a minimumThat is the MINIMUM service an accountancy firm should provide.
I guess this is my naivity
bigandclever said:
http://www.uptonaccountants.com/contractors.htm said:
Our contractor package is an all encompassing service to include all the assistance you would normally require during the year including:-
Annual company accounts for tax purposes
Annual abbreviated accounts for Companies House
Corporation tax return
Directors self assessment return including online filing
Monthly payslips & PAYE reports
Online filing of PAYE returns, including registration with the Inland Revenue
Preparation of VAT returns
Production of dividend vouchers
Tax planning
In addition, should you require a mortgage reference, we do not charge clients for this service.
All of the above services come with our service level guarantees and are available at £60 per month plus VAT (£70.50 inclusive).
It happens that I pay annually, rather than on a monthly basis, and it also happens that I pay a couple of hundred less than £720 plus VAT. One difference I can see (and happy to be corrected) is AccountsNet makes no mention of doing the Self Assessment returns? http://www.accountsnet.com/limitedcompany.htmAnnual company accounts for tax purposes
Annual abbreviated accounts for Companies House
Corporation tax return
Directors self assessment return including online filing
Monthly payslips & PAYE reports
Online filing of PAYE returns, including registration with the Inland Revenue
Preparation of VAT returns
Production of dividend vouchers
Tax planning
In addition, should you require a mortgage reference, we do not charge clients for this service.
All of the above services come with our service level guarantees and are available at £60 per month plus VAT (£70.50 inclusive).
zippy3x said:
I find it hard to believe that doing my books would require anything more than "basic" accountancy skills
Probably not, however, it's not just about 'doing your books'.If you had a good relationship with a good accountant, i'm sure you'd understand why. What people like Eric and myself do, certainly isn't simply giving you a piece of paper to sign once a year and telling you how much tax to pay.
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