PRS / PPL Music licence issue for a small business.
Discussion
Bump!
The PPL police have started on me now.
I received the standard letter today stating that have contacted me already and that they are pursuing the £50 admin surcharge and a years licence.
I have rang them up and asked them what gives them the idea that I am playing music to the public? And how have they contacted me previously in regards to issuing me with a surcharge etc etc.
They have stated they they rang the shop to enquire if we had a licence or not and from that conversation they heard background noise coming from our radio.
I corrected them and told them that we do not have a radio, but instead we have a TV with Freeview channels that is for staff only. (Me+Mrs)
Our shop is a cafe that we started from scratch just over two years ago, at first business was poor as you can imagine and we had a TV fitted to pass time. The TV is rarely even switched on anymore apart from the odd time when the mrs will have the radio on it whilst cleaning or stock taking out of hours.
The place is that busy these days theres no other time for it.
I find it absolutely disgusting they they just issue letters out with surcharges etc etc with no actual evidence. The telephone call they are referring to was a simple is the business owner there and can you get him to call us. Next news we have the letter through the door.
Nathan
The PPL police have started on me now.
I received the standard letter today stating that have contacted me already and that they are pursuing the £50 admin surcharge and a years licence.
I have rang them up and asked them what gives them the idea that I am playing music to the public? And how have they contacted me previously in regards to issuing me with a surcharge etc etc.
They have stated they they rang the shop to enquire if we had a licence or not and from that conversation they heard background noise coming from our radio.
I corrected them and told them that we do not have a radio, but instead we have a TV with Freeview channels that is for staff only. (Me+Mrs)
Our shop is a cafe that we started from scratch just over two years ago, at first business was poor as you can imagine and we had a TV fitted to pass time. The TV is rarely even switched on anymore apart from the odd time when the mrs will have the radio on it whilst cleaning or stock taking out of hours.
The place is that busy these days theres no other time for it.
I find it absolutely disgusting they they just issue letters out with surcharges etc etc with no actual evidence. The telephone call they are referring to was a simple is the business owner there and can you get him to call us. Next news we have the letter through the door.
Nathan
Miguel Alvarez said:
Are they taking the piss? That "music" could have come from anywhere, car outside, mobile phone, the missus singing her favourite song.
They would claim that if the shop staff and/or customers could hear music from a car parked outside, they should pay.Cretins, the whole lot.
nath69uk said:
Bump!
I find it absolutely disgusting they they just issue letters out with surcharges etc etc with no actual evidence. The telephone call they are referring to was a simple is the business owner there and can you get him to call us. Next news we have the letter through the door.
Nathan
HeyI find it absolutely disgusting they they just issue letters out with surcharges etc etc with no actual evidence. The telephone call they are referring to was a simple is the business owner there and can you get him to call us. Next news we have the letter through the door.
Nathan
They've been chasing me for about 2 years now on the basis they called, spoke with a memeber of staff and asked if we play the radio and whether our premises were bigger or smaller than a football pitch. When we got the first 3 sets of invoices i just threw them in the bin, then I got the legal letters. Insidently these are from a firm (?) of solicitors asscocaited with PPL and in the same premises!!!
PPL also advised they recorded the conversation, however they have not been able to provide a copy of this to me, not did they advise during the initial conversation that the call would be recorded which I am sure is illegal!!!
I wrote and advised PPL we didnt have any radio played in the premises and that as they had not informed that the call would be recorded they could basically F@ck Off!!! I then got a call from their soliciutors who asked if I was going to pay to which I advised I had written to their client to displute their invoices and claims without reply. The solicitor asked if I could send them a copy of the correspondence, to which I replied why dont you just ask PPL they are in the same building to which I heard him shout across an office if they had the correspondence relating to us!!!!!!
Basically every time I now get a demand I post it back with b
ks stamped all over it and until they can prove we use broadcasting equipment, which they cant, they can whistle!!!!The absurdity of this situation is what makes it so perverse. If you play the radio, you must pay. If, instead, you issue every visitor to your premises a personal FM radio (50p from China), no payment need be made, despite all those people listening to the same music in the same room 
I can, to a degree, appreciate the issue surrounding individual tracks. But radio? What part of 'broadcast' is not understood?
Perhaps a fairer approach would be to enforce the old radio licence principle, but administered in the manner of the old German sop to the record industry over cassette recorders, i.e. levy a surcharge on every device capable of playing music sold in the UK to pay into a PRS / PPL 'pot'? Surely this would have to be cheaper than the ludicrously labour-intensive system we now have?
I can, to a degree, appreciate the issue surrounding individual tracks. But radio? What part of 'broadcast' is not understood?
Perhaps a fairer approach would be to enforce the old radio licence principle, but administered in the manner of the old German sop to the record industry over cassette recorders, i.e. levy a surcharge on every device capable of playing music sold in the UK to pay into a PRS / PPL 'pot'? Surely this would have to be cheaper than the ludicrously labour-intensive system we now have?
nath69uk said:
Bump!
The PPL police have started on me now.
I received the standard letter today stating that have contacted me already and that they are pursuing the £50 admin surcharge and a years licence.
I have rang them up and asked them what gives them the idea that I am playing music to the public? And how have they contacted me previously in regards to issuing me with a surcharge etc etc.
They have stated they they rang the shop to enquire if we had a licence or not and from that conversation they heard background noise coming from our radio.
I corrected them and told them that we do not have a radio, but instead we have a TV with Freeview channels that is for staff only. (Me+Mrs)
Our shop is a cafe that we started from scratch just over two years ago, at first business was poor as you can imagine and we had a TV fitted to pass time. The TV is rarely even switched on anymore apart from the odd time when the mrs will have the radio on it whilst cleaning or stock taking out of hours.
The place is that busy these days theres no other time for it.
I find it absolutely disgusting they they just issue letters out with surcharges etc etc with no actual evidence. The telephone call they are referring to was a simple is the business owner there and can you get him to call us. Next news we have the letter through the door.
Nathan
Hi Nathan,The PPL police have started on me now.
I received the standard letter today stating that have contacted me already and that they are pursuing the £50 admin surcharge and a years licence.
I have rang them up and asked them what gives them the idea that I am playing music to the public? And how have they contacted me previously in regards to issuing me with a surcharge etc etc.
They have stated they they rang the shop to enquire if we had a licence or not and from that conversation they heard background noise coming from our radio.
I corrected them and told them that we do not have a radio, but instead we have a TV with Freeview channels that is for staff only. (Me+Mrs)
Our shop is a cafe that we started from scratch just over two years ago, at first business was poor as you can imagine and we had a TV fitted to pass time. The TV is rarely even switched on anymore apart from the odd time when the mrs will have the radio on it whilst cleaning or stock taking out of hours.
The place is that busy these days theres no other time for it.
I find it absolutely disgusting they they just issue letters out with surcharges etc etc with no actual evidence. The telephone call they are referring to was a simple is the business owner there and can you get him to call us. Next news we have the letter through the door.
Nathan
I have dealt with these a
holes a few times in the past, their criteria for a public performance is one person being able to hear it in a public place. They threatened me with legal action on the basis 'I MUST have a radio somewhere on the premises', they try to intimidate as much as possible.The problem you have now is you have admitted to having a TV (I assume you have a licence) but any music broadcast through it comes under a PPL (or so they say).
They will try to extort money in any way, I never paid a penny (never needed to), let me know if they come back to you though.
Cheers
Dave
It's a bullst business model. Threaten people with legal action if they don't pay 'fees', hoping most people will roll over because they don't want the hassle. It's utterly stupid - by definition, radio broadcasts are intended to be heard by the public, it's their entire purpose. The radio stations have already paid money for using the music they broadcast but these graspers want more. They are scum, and it's about time the entire greedy media industry collapses under the weight of their own irrelevance.
t business model. Threaten people with legal action if they don't pay 'fees', hoping most people will roll over because they don't want the hassle. It's utterly stupid - by definition, radio broadcasts are intended to be heard by the public, it's their entire purpose. The radio stations have already paid money for using the music they broadcast but these graspers want more. They are scum, and it's about time the entire greedy media industry collapses under the weight of their own irrelevance.The BBC used similar bullying tactics [ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2699593/Tel... ] to harvest its licence fee up until recently but a widespread and vociferous public backlash saw them soften their approach.
It used to be the same with the DVLA who used to show ads on tv of your car getting crushed if you failed to pay, but it seems these have disappeared too as a result of complaints over this negative and overly threatening approach.
It used to be the same with the DVLA who used to show ads on tv of your car getting crushed if you failed to pay, but it seems these have disappeared too as a result of complaints over this negative and overly threatening approach.
Edited by rog007 on Thursday 3rd May 07:10
mark165 said:
I don't have an issue with the licence! She didn't have one, she has to get one. Fair enough.
It's the 50% surcharge that's put on not once, but twice- to me the whole surcharge thing is quite unjustified.
If they didn't add a surcharge no one would bother paying for the license and just wait until they were caught though.It's the 50% surcharge that's put on not once, but twice- to me the whole surcharge thing is quite unjustified.
D1ckie said:
I wrote and advised PPL we didnt have any radio played in the premises and that as they had not informed that the call would be recorded they could basically F@ck Off
Same here, pretty much.The speculative invoice arrived, they then called to chase it and I told them that they could see me in court as they have no evidence.
I followed that up with a letter stating that they were not welcome on the premises and that any further contact by any means would be deemed harassment and treated accordingly.
I haven't heard from them since then (last September).
BoRED S2upid said:
They take this money to compensate artisits I believe.
Compensate? I'd be interested to learn for what reason. My assumption is is that the artist sells their product via physical or digital downloads. If we're saying they should get paid again everytime someone listens to their song, I wonder if this could be applied to other industries? Could the developer who built my home for example charge everytime a visitor walked through my front door? I'm just trying to understand better what is different with music compared to other products where a one-off payment seems to suffice, or has everyone else been short-changing themselves?BoRED S2upid said:
They take this money to compensate artisits I believe. It would be interesting to see how much goes to artisits and how much gets taken by the organisations costs is this data published?
Last year 88% went to the artists. It's an organisation accountable to it's members, who are the artists.The remaining amount went on costs, which of course ironically the majority is chasing up non-payers.
Info is freely available and linked to the front page of their site.
rog007 said:
Compensate? I'd be interested to learn for what reason. My assumption is is that the artist sells their product via physical or digital downloads. If we're saying they should get paid again everytime someone listens to their song, I wonder if this could be applied to other industries? Could the developer who built my home for example charge everytime a visitor walked through my front door? I'm just trying to understand better what is different with music compared to other products where a one-off payment seems to suffice, or has everyone else been short-changing themselves?
Quick lesson in intellectual property rights, and the law:This is to do with the Copyright, Designs, and Patents Act. It basically says that a copyright holder of a work has the right to decide if he wants his work copied, publicly performed, broadcast, use it for commercial use, a derivative work made of, and so on and so forth.
This is not just about music, it is all industries where the 'value' in the work is the work itself, not the medium it comes on.
As homework, have a look at a CD. A message about the rights you have and don't have when you buy a CD is on the CD face. Essentially, it is the copyright holder giving you the right to play it, but not in public, not to broadcast it, and not to make copies of it.
The same will be on the packaging of a DVD, on the inside page of a book, and in the packaging of computer software. Essentially, in all cases it says that the 'value' is in the work itself, and although you own the medium it comes on, you only have the licence for what you have paid for - personal use - not the permission to publicly perform it, copy it or broadcast it. If you want to do those things you have to ask permission.
This is where it relates to playing the radio, or CDs, or digital downloads (legally obtained or not) in public. The law is you don't have the right to play that music in public - you don't have the copyright holder's permission. Furthermore, if you are playing it in a business for the benefit of your staff, or customers, you are also gaining a commercial benefit from doing so.
Legally, to do that, you would have to ask the copyright holder. They can either say yes, or no, or yes as long as you pay me X. Songwriters are almost always represented by the PRS, because clearly they cannot be fielding calls from Power Cutz Salon in Brentford every day to negotiate a rate for their commercial use and public performance. So, the PRS works on behalf of all of the songwriters as a bloc, so you need one licence - based on approximately what your commercial use is worth.
We get that, but it still doesn't negate the two bites of the apple. If I buy a CD (or whatever medium) and wish to "perform" it for my commercial gain then yep fairy muff I should pass on some of that gain in the form of payment to the artist that facilitates it. Which is my understanding of how radio stations operate.
Radio Stations "buy" their music and then pay an additional charge to the rights holder each time they "perform" that music, their commercial gain comes in the form of advertising revenue (with the exception of the BBC and the unique way it is funded
) which funds the operating costs and rights payments. Both the advertising revenue and rights payments are directly derived from the exposure or number of listeners who hear either the adverts or the music.
So by that logic if I allow a commercial radio station to broadcast into my place of business and be heard by my staff and customers then they are gaining by the increased listener figures to be able to earn more advertising revenue and equally pass on a % per listener figure for the music played. I admit that I too gain commercially by playing the radio station and giving my staff and customers a nicer ambience, the flip side of this gain for me is that I do not charge the radio station for the benefit they derive from me broadcasting their advertising into the area of which I have control.
Maybe I should start sending the Capital Radio Group a speculative invoice?
Radio Stations "buy" their music and then pay an additional charge to the rights holder each time they "perform" that music, their commercial gain comes in the form of advertising revenue (with the exception of the BBC and the unique way it is funded
) which funds the operating costs and rights payments. Both the advertising revenue and rights payments are directly derived from the exposure or number of listeners who hear either the adverts or the music. So by that logic if I allow a commercial radio station to broadcast into my place of business and be heard by my staff and customers then they are gaining by the increased listener figures to be able to earn more advertising revenue and equally pass on a % per listener figure for the music played. I admit that I too gain commercially by playing the radio station and giving my staff and customers a nicer ambience, the flip side of this gain for me is that I do not charge the radio station for the benefit they derive from me broadcasting their advertising into the area of which I have control.
Maybe I should start sending the Capital Radio Group a speculative invoice?
What your missing is that at the end of the day. If a customer/employer is hearing music then they are hearing music. It matters not whether its radio, mp3, cd etc. You have in effect become the person broadcasting it. They are hearing it via you.
This however is where I have an issue.
I listen to BBC 1xtra you listen to Capital. We both pay "fees" at what point is the question asked what music you've actually listened to so that it can be correctly distributed to the artist's music you've heard. Never.
Things appear to have changed but when I did a few records I looked into PRS/PPL etc and decided it was a big con. I had music being played on a lot of urban radio shows at the time. Choice FM, 1xtra, Kiss FM, Galaxy etc. I thought cool free money coming in. I phoned up and asked how I would be renumerated. Their response was that they audit set stations on set days. National radio stations such as Radio 1 are audited every day and I would receive a payment if I had a song played any day of the year. Regional stations however were audited on limited days in the year. I think from memory Kiss FM for example was audited 16 random days of the year so if my song was played on one of those 16 days of the year I got the best part of £5. I didn't bother registering as I couldn't see how I could possibly make my money back.
This however is where I have an issue.
I listen to BBC 1xtra you listen to Capital. We both pay "fees" at what point is the question asked what music you've actually listened to so that it can be correctly distributed to the artist's music you've heard. Never.
Things appear to have changed but when I did a few records I looked into PRS/PPL etc and decided it was a big con. I had music being played on a lot of urban radio shows at the time. Choice FM, 1xtra, Kiss FM, Galaxy etc. I thought cool free money coming in. I phoned up and asked how I would be renumerated. Their response was that they audit set stations on set days. National radio stations such as Radio 1 are audited every day and I would receive a payment if I had a song played any day of the year. Regional stations however were audited on limited days in the year. I think from memory Kiss FM for example was audited 16 random days of the year so if my song was played on one of those 16 days of the year I got the best part of £5. I didn't bother registering as I couldn't see how I could possibly make my money back.
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