PRS / PPL Music licence issue for a small business.

PRS / PPL Music licence issue for a small business.

Author
Discussion

Mojooo

12,668 posts

179 months

Thursday 10th May 2012
quotequote all
Its not a tax, but I am surprised that PH, the bastion of capatlism would not support creative artists getting their just rewards.

Copyright is an odd one, because it does appear that you can make huge amounts of money by creating a song and get lots of money just by having your songs played.

Should there be a financial limit or time limit on how long an artist gets paid for a song and then itbecomes free (i.e a lot shorter than the current 70 odd years).

The current system is probably the most brutally fair way to pay an artist - i.e popular/quality stuff gets played and the artist gtes paid. But as I have said, it can create a seemingly unfair situation whereby royalty is paid over and over.

Perhaps the law should be changed that that you only pay royalty when broadcasting to a "very large" audience - that way it will take out many small timers from the scope.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Thursday 10th May 2012
quotequote all
What I object to is the very stretched definition of 'broadcast'. I bought a couple of CDs this week, delivered to work as usual. As In understand it, if I take the CDs home I can play them without paying anything to PRS/PPL, but if I play them in my office and someone else walks in then that is a broadcast? So I could invite everyone at work round to my house to listen to my CDs for free, but if they hear it playing at work then I'm broadcasting and need to pay extra? Crazy logic there.

528Sport

1,431 posts

233 months

Thursday 10th May 2012
quotequote all
We have a number of clients who use our audio service one is a amusment arcade business.

Their licence is different to a shop. A shop will pay the fee on the size of the floor space.
The amusment arcade have to pay per speaker even though each speaker has the same audio coming out of it.

work that one out

sinizter

3,348 posts

185 months

Thursday 10th May 2012
quotequote all
528Sport said:
We have a number of clients who use our audio service one is a amusment arcade business.

Their licence is different to a shop. A shop will pay the fee on the size of the floor space.
The amusment arcade have to pay per speaker even though each speaker has the same audio coming out of it.

work that one out
There must be some money in making one very large speaker that extends the full length of the room ?

scdan4

1,299 posts

159 months

Thursday 10th May 2012
quotequote all
528Sport said:
..... A shop will pay the fee on the size of the floor space......
the floorspace, the number of chairs, the colour of the assistants undies and the length of the piece of string behind the counter.

The pushy idiots who check up on you, or the offensive and rude telephone girls are not even singing from the same hymn sheet themselves. I swear that they make it up as they go along, armed with a standard set of menaces and a brace of thugettes.

We have no music and have removed their right of implied access. Doesn't stop the tw*t coming in and claiming i have to pay for the music that can be heard from the block of flats behind (TWICE thats happened)

Not an impressive organisation.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Thursday 10th May 2012
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528Sport said:
RedLeicester said:
You want to paint your lounge.

You want to use Dulux emulsion.

You buy Dulux from B&Q.

B&Q have already bought it from Dulux.

Why should you pay B&Q when they've already paid Dulux?
your not getting it.
Say I own a radio station and pay prs and PPL so I can transmit audio to the public (you) fair enough I pay. Why should you a shop owner have to pay to hear my station? I have already paid fees so you can hear my output...
You say this later:

528Sport said:
Having been in radio for 18+ years I know what i'm talking about.
If you've been in radio for 18 years, then surely you don't need someone to explain what a 'broadcast' is?

Or, what a 'public performance' is?

Or, how they legally and practically differ, or how they are separately defined in law?

In short - when you paid your radio licence, you paid a small percentage of your advertising income as a licence to broadcast music. That licence does not cover everyone, or indeed anyone that wants to use your broadcast for a public performance, or indeed any other use restricted in law.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Thursday 10th May 2012
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
What I object to is the very stretched definition of 'broadcast'. I bought a couple of CDs this week, delivered to work as usual. As In understand it, if I take the CDs home I can play them without paying anything to PRS/PPL, but if I play them in my office and someone else walks in then that is a broadcast? So I could invite everyone at work round to my house to listen to my CDs for free, but if they hear it playing at work then I'm broadcasting and need to pay extra? Crazy logic there.
What you are talking about is not 'broadcast', that is what a radio station does. What you would be doing is public performance. Totally different things.

What is considered 'public' comes down to case law. In short, of you are at home, that is a private place. You have you, your family there and friends you invite.

If you play your CD at work (unless you work at home) and there are a number of people there, then this is where the definition of where 'public' begins.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
RYH64E said:
What I object to is the very stretched definition of 'broadcast'. I bought a couple of CDs this week, delivered to work as usual. As In understand it, if I take the CDs home I can play them without paying anything to PRS/PPL, but if I play them in my office and someone else walks in then that is a broadcast? So I could invite everyone at work round to my house to listen to my CDs for free, but if they hear it playing at work then I'm broadcasting and need to pay extra? Crazy logic there.
What you are talking about is not 'broadcast', that is what a radio station does. What you would be doing is public performance. Totally different things.

What is considered 'public' comes down to case law. In short, of you are at home, that is a private place. You have you, your family there and friends you invite.

If you play your CD at work (unless you work at home) and there are a number of people there, then this is where the definition of where 'public' begins.
Sorry, my mistake as to the terminilogy. It's still just as daft though, why on earth should I not be able to listen to music, that I have bought and paid for, at work? Although as I understand it, I can listen to music at work if i use headphones, just not if I use speakers.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
JustinP1 said:
RYH64E said:
What I object to is the very stretched definition of 'broadcast'. I bought a couple of CDs this week, delivered to work as usual. As In understand it, if I take the CDs home I can play them without paying anything to PRS/PPL, but if I play them in my office and someone else walks in then that is a broadcast? So I could invite everyone at work round to my house to listen to my CDs for free, but if they hear it playing at work then I'm broadcasting and need to pay extra? Crazy logic there.
What you are talking about is not 'broadcast', that is what a radio station does. What you would be doing is public performance. Totally different things.

What is considered 'public' comes down to case law. In short, of you are at home, that is a private place. You have you, your family there and friends you invite.

If you play your CD at work (unless you work at home) and there are a number of people there, then this is where the definition of where 'public' begins.
Sorry, my mistake as to the terminilogy. It's still just as daft though, why on earth should I not be able to listen to music, that I have bought and paid for, at work? Although as I understand it, I can listen to music at work if i use headphones, just not if I use speakers.
The reason is you have not paid for the right to play the music in public.

All you've paid for is a disc with that music data on - with the specific warning on that disc that you have not paid for the right to play the disc in public. Or make a copy of it for example.

However, if you wish you *can* pay for the right to play that disc in public, or indeed pay for the right to make copies.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
The reason is you have not paid for the right to play the music in public.

All you've paid for is a disc with that music data on - with the specific warning on that disc that you have not paid for the right to play the disc in public. Or make a copy of it for example.

However, if you wish you *can* pay for the right to play that disc in public, or indeed pay for the right to make copies.
My office isn't public, and as I understand it, I can play it in public if i use headphones.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
JustinP1 said:
The reason is you have not paid for the right to play the music in public.

All you've paid for is a disc with that music data on - with the specific warning on that disc that you have not paid for the right to play the disc in public. Or make a copy of it for example.

However, if you wish you *can* pay for the right to play that disc in public, or indeed pay for the right to make copies.
My office isn't public, and as I understand it, I can play it in public if i use headphones.
As I mentioned before, the law is the private encompasses the home, and an office is not a 'private' space, thus falls into the definition of public as those people are not in your 'private' space.

Don't shoot the messenger - check the law.

You can of course listen to headphones wherever you like because the music is for your own personal use and you are not performing it in public...

CoolHands

18,496 posts

194 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
judge Someone needs to look up the definition of 'headphone'. Can you have headphones with really massive speakers on them (like 15") that are played really loudly?

In which case it's just headphone leakage and no fee to pay biggrin

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
As I mentioned before, the law is the private encompasses the home, and an office is not a 'private' space, thus falls into the definition of public as those people are not in your 'private' space.

Don't shoot the messenger - check the law.

You can of course listen to headphones wherever you like because the music is for your own personal use and you are not performing it in public...
I know that you don't make the rules, it just seems ridiculous to me that I can invite all of my colleagues round to my house to listen to music with no problems, yet I can't listen to music, that i have bought, in my office on my own, unless I use headphones (which I don't like). I enjoy a bit of background music whilst I work, in fact I'm currently listening to the latest Norah Jones, but the PPL/PRS people say that is perfectly ok if I'm working from home but not in the privacy of my office.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
^

Well that is just where the line is drawn to balance Joe Bloggs' individual rights and the rights of the copyright holder.

The copyright holder is not providing air, water or sustenance, you don't have a moral need for his product. Essentially the copyright holder can pick and choose what he wants done with his work, and you can choose whether to pay his price and use it for that stated purpose.

That is not the artist being greedy, that is simply the way that IP works. The biggest misconception about it, which rears it's head by a new poster on every page is that they can't get their head around that IP is not sold like an apple or an orange you can hold in your hand - because of course you can't hold IP in your hand!

The value of that IP whether it is a book, DVD or CD is defined simply by how the individual contracts between the artist and the user/business owner are agreed.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
Just reading what it actually says on the back of the CD cover, 'Unauthorised copying, public performance, broadcasting, hiring or rental of this recording prohibited'. To me, my playing the cd at work, in my office, for my own enjoyment is stretching the definition of 'public performance'. I can't believe that 'public performance' was ever intended to prohibit me listening to music that I have paid for, at work. If anyone walks into the office I turn the music off so as not to be distracted, and if I answer the phone I turn it off so as not to give the impression that I am working from home. It's no different to listening to the same music at home whilst catching up with a bit of work.

The PPL/PPS people are, in my opinion, distorting the term public performance for their own benefit.

GhostDriver

878 posts

191 months

Friday 11th May 2012
quotequote all
Im a small business owner who had real hassles with these clowns/vultures/pirates.

I explained to them that my workforce is multi cultural and each wants to listen to their own music, so I therefore banned radios from workfloor.

I got barraged, hassled & threatened via post emails and constant phone calls.
They wouldnt accept it.

So I threatened them with letters to my MP, ofcom (for the calls) and a whole load of ther stuff.

They dont call me anymore.

Also I asked if it was ok if I played my own productions. (I have released a couple of dance music EPs). They said no and I would have to pay for that too!

Great system for all of you lot backing up this concept.

frostystart

6 posts

172 months

Tuesday 15th May 2012
quotequote all
This is getting to be a big thread!!
Did you know the PRS/PPL are even charging charity shops that play music, just like any other retailer! Thats why charityshopradio.co.uk was created an off spin from the guys at imsradio.net A Totally PRS/PPL fee free music internet radio station and the charity shop radio is free to listen to as well, with the odd advert that helps keep it free.
Fully dj presented throughout so the unsigned bands get an airing and their websites mentioned so everyones happy, apart from the PRS/PPL people, but they will survive.
Thanks FS

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Tuesday 15th May 2012
quotequote all
frostystart said:
This is getting to be a big thread!!
Did you know the PRS/PPL are even charging charity shops that play music, just like any other retailer! Thats why charityshopradio.co.uk was created an off spin from the guys at imsradio.net A Totally PRS/PPL fee free music internet radio station and the charity shop radio is free to listen to as well, with the odd advert that helps keep it free.
Fully dj presented throughout so the unsigned bands get an airing and their websites mentioned so everyones happy, apart from the PRS/PPL people, but they will survive.
Thanks FS
A glowing reference, and a hidden ad to boot!

sinizter

3,348 posts

185 months

Tuesday 15th May 2012
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
A glowing reference, and a hidden ad to boot!
Well spotted.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Tuesday 15th May 2012
quotequote all
sinizter said:
JustinP1 said:
A glowing reference, and a hidden ad to boot!
Well spotted.
It's pretty easy if you follow the rules:

1) Usually a new poster, or one who has only a handful of posts, and

2) They will quote their full website address. PH is a very well travelled site, and naming their site on it gives their own site Google rankings.

That's why blatant advertisements are not allowed.... smile

Edited to add - to prove 2), if you Google 'PRS PPL' considering the popularity of such a search, this thread is on the front page of Google, twice.

Edited by JustinP1 on Tuesday 15th May 11:07