Discussion
ZesPak said:
Also, what does it back up that the cloud doesn't these days?
Your pictures privately 
Also, my iPhone data comes to more than the free iCloud storage (even ignoring music/podcasts) so I'd not want to rely on iCloud - I don't know what it would omit.Had a play with a 6 yesterday and after fearing it would be too big, I was surprised to find it felt fine in the hand. It doesn't look much bigger than a 5 unless you put them together. Might get one but my nearly 2yr old 64GB 5 still has plenty of storage space, still feels snappy in use and still has decent battery life, so there's not a lot of point in spending £619 to replace it yet.
Blown2CV said:
ZesPak said:
Esseesse said:
Apple A8? Apple Pay is/will be significant IMO.
As significant as it might be (and I hope it'll finally get the ball rolling!), it's still just following the trend. NFC payments exists and they're as easy to use as can be, it's just widespread adoption in the stores that's lacking.The US needs to be a forerunner here, and Apple is still doing exceptionally well in the domestic market (which makes sense). So a couple of trendsetting chains (Starbucks) will be quick to adopt now that Apple finally has joined the crop.
It's not really following the trend, if it were simply that Apple would have rolled out some half baked NFC idea years ago when others put out their half baked offerings.
If Apple Pay catches on enough (and that means to the point where it's a rare annoyance when you can't use it, like a shop that doesn't take cards today) then Apple are the innovators and the rest just don't matter.
Esseesse said:
^^^ This.
It's not really following the trend, if it were simply that Apple would have rolled out some half baked NFC idea years ago when others put out their half baked offerings.
If Apple Pay catches on enough (and that means to the point where it's a rare annoyance when you can't use it, like a shop that doesn't take cards today) then Apple are the innovators and the rest just don't matter.
It's not really following the trend, if it were simply that Apple would have rolled out some half baked NFC idea years ago when others put out their half baked offerings.
If Apple Pay catches on enough (and that means to the point where it's a rare annoyance when you can't use it, like a shop that doesn't take cards today) then Apple are the innovators and the rest just don't matter.
Sorry, have you ever used NFC payments on other devices? It works great and I wouldn't call it "half baked" in any way, shape or form.
Yes, early windows tablets, those were half-baked, but NFC payments are fully functional and easy to use.
And just because their NFC payment solution "catches on", that makes them the "innovators"? Hey, their 5.5" display outsold any other 5.5" display phone in the opening weekend, talk about "innovation"!
I realise I'm in the wrong thread for this, but you really need to take off these glasses you're wearing.
ZesPak said:
Esseesse said:
^^^ This.
It's not really following the trend, if it were simply that Apple would have rolled out some half baked NFC idea years ago when others put out their half baked offerings.
If Apple Pay catches on enough (and that means to the point where it's a rare annoyance when you can't use it, like a shop that doesn't take cards today) then Apple are the innovators and the rest just don't matter.
It's not really following the trend, if it were simply that Apple would have rolled out some half baked NFC idea years ago when others put out their half baked offerings.
If Apple Pay catches on enough (and that means to the point where it's a rare annoyance when you can't use it, like a shop that doesn't take cards today) then Apple are the innovators and the rest just don't matter.
Sorry, have you ever used NFC payments on other devices? It works great and I wouldn't call it "half baked" in any way, shape or form.
Yes, early windows tablets, those were half-baked, but NFC payments are fully functional and easy to use.
And just because their NFC payment solution "catches on", that makes them the "innovators"? Hey, their 5.5" display outsold any other 5.5" display phone in the opening weekend, talk about "innovation"!
I realise I'm in the wrong thread for this, but you really need to take off these glasses you're wearing.
Esseesse said:
Isn't there a £20 limit on current implementations of NFC payments due to lack of security?
Limits are set for payments without verification (ie, no pin, fingerprint, ... needed), for obvious reasons.Higher payments can be done but you need to verify on your phone (eg pin code).
The initial draft didn't have this "no verification" option (again, obvious reasons), but they implemented it so that paying for example for a coffee could go much faster. You can disable this on the phones as well of course. Look at it this way:
- the "no verification" payments are your money in your pocket (get it out the pocket, everyone can use it to pay with), limited to £20 in the uk per payment, doing this several times
- and the "verification" payments are like card payments, on your phone, get it out of your pocket and you still have to enter a pin
Edited by ZesPak on Tuesday 30th September 09:57
ZesPak said:
Esseesse said:
Isn't there a £20 limit on current implementations of NFC payments due to lack of security?
Limits are set for payments without verification (ie, no pin, fingerprint, ... needed), for obvious reasons.Higher payments can be done but you need to verify on your phone (eg pin code).
The initial draft didn't have this "no verification" option (again, obvious reasons), but they implemented it so that paying for example for a coffee could go much faster. You can disable this on the phones as well of course. Look at it this way: the "no verification" payments are your money in your pocket (get it out the pocket, everyone can use it to pay with), and the "verification" payments are like card payments, on your phone.
Setting the limit to, for example £100, would make these phones an even bigger target as they are now for thieves.
Also some of the existing problems surrounding NFC may just be marketing, but may be real. I've just seen something (online) called Visa payWave NFC, then you have the various handset makers with their NFC implementations. Do they all work together or when you get to the till can you find that you have the 'wrong' type of NFC? As I say, this may be a perception problem for me, but as someone interested in tech it's a problem that it's not clear to me (so my parents have no hope, in fact they wouldn't know what 'NFC' is, but 'Apple Pay' would be obvious enough). Apple Pay will have an inherent advantage that it'll quickly be the most common payment method so you'll have the most certainty over compatibility. It might be 'unfair' that Apple has that position because of existing market position, but it'll be an advantage none the less.
Esseesse said:
So Apple touch id seems like a reasonable solution. Typing your pin in on the phone is halfway to typing it in to a card reader. I can't think of many instances where things I buy are less than £20, but I'm not a big (high street) shopper.
I can think of many instances, paying for a sandwich, coffee, vending machines,...Everything more would just require a pin, agreed, probably just as easy with a card but you don't need the card (on top of a camera, notebook, phone, internet device, calculator and many more, your phone becomes your wallet). On top of that, phone manufacturers can think off their own security alternatives like biometrics (touch id on the iPhone), pattern unlock,...
Esseesse said:
Also some of the existing problems surrounding NFC may just be marketing, but may be real. I've just seen something (online) called Visa payWave NFC, then you have the various handset makers with their NFC implementations. Do they all work together or when you get to the till can you find that you have the 'wrong' type of NFC? As I say, this may be a perception problem for me, but as someone interested in tech it's a problem that it's not clear to me (so my parents have no hope, in fact they wouldn't know what 'NFC' is, but 'Apple Pay' would be obvious enough). Apple Pay will have an inherent advantage that it'll quickly be the most common payment method so you'll have the most certainty over compatibility. It might be 'unfair' that Apple has that position because of existing market position, but it'll be an advantage none the less.
So basically, everything is in place, and this is what happens:
Your assessment that Apple makes it easier by creating yet another standard is really funny in my eyes.
We'll have to see for implementations, but for now one terminal can handle most, if not all, phone (and card!) NFC payments. Let's just hope shop keepers don't need an "Apple approved" terminal as well.
Apple is using their strong position to enforce not just a standard but their proprietary protocol, in the omniplatform world we're living in this is frustrating for people doing implementations of many devices like I do. If any other company would try this (Microsoft, Google,...) they would get slated to no end. Apple does this and you see this as a good thing?
Edited by ZesPak on Tuesday 30th September 10:11
ZesPak said:
BenM77 said:
Using iTunes is the best way to back up and also for updating IOS. For me anyway.
Agreed, but that's like once every year. Also, what does it back up that the cloud doesn't these days?Installed apps? The data of said apps?
Hardly worth the backup for me, but ymmv.
ZesPak said:
Esseesse said:
^^^ This.
It's not really following the trend, if it were simply that Apple would have rolled out some half baked NFC idea years ago when others put out their half baked offerings.
If Apple Pay catches on enough (and that means to the point where it's a rare annoyance when you can't use it, like a shop that doesn't take cards today) then Apple are the innovators and the rest just don't matter.
It's not really following the trend, if it were simply that Apple would have rolled out some half baked NFC idea years ago when others put out their half baked offerings.
If Apple Pay catches on enough (and that means to the point where it's a rare annoyance when you can't use it, like a shop that doesn't take cards today) then Apple are the innovators and the rest just don't matter.
Sorry, have you ever used NFC payments on other devices? It works great and I wouldn't call it "half baked" in any way, shape or form.
Yes, early windows tablets, those were half-baked, but NFC payments are fully functional and easy to use.
And just because their NFC payment solution "catches on", that makes them the "innovators"? Hey, their 5.5" display outsold any other 5.5" display phone in the opening weekend, talk about "innovation"!
I realise I'm in the wrong thread for this, but you really need to take off these glasses you're wearing.
i do think there has been method to how Apple have approached Apple Pay. Get the NFC tech in, get the touchID in, get the card secure chip in, get the partnerships in place with some decent players on-board THEN release it. There's more strategy to how they do things I think. TouchID wasn't meant just for payments, but the link was made early on.
Blown2CV said:
Missing the point a touch. The tech world isn't just about new and sexy featurez, it's about taking something which is good but hasn't gained traction or hasn't been applied properly and actually making it work. Apple are good at both, and not many other companies are. The latter is a lot harder to do as it doesn't just involve an army of development engineers, it also requires business development partnerships, agreements, it's far more market-driven than just "check this out!"
NFC doesn't need to be re-applied or improved, there is nothing wrong with it.Its just a case of retailers spending to put the machines in their shops.
Crafty_ said:
Blown2CV said:
Missing the point a touch. The tech world isn't just about new and sexy featurez, it's about taking something which is good but hasn't gained traction or hasn't been applied properly and actually making it work. Apple are good at both, and not many other companies are. The latter is a lot harder to do as it doesn't just involve an army of development engineers, it also requires business development partnerships, agreements, it's far more market-driven than just "check this out!"
NFC doesn't need to be re-applied or improved, there is nothing wrong with it.Its just a case of retailers spending to put the machines in their shops.
Esseesse said:
So Apple touch id seems like a reasonable solution. Typing your pin in on the phone is halfway to typing it in to a card reader. I can't think of many instances where things I buy are less than £20, but I'm not a big (high street) shopper.
I think you're missing the point of NFC payments in their current form. It was never intended to replace cards, it was designed for buying cheap things like beer, sandwiches, mars bars, coffee etc. It was intended to replace coins rather than cards.Remember the Barclays ad with the fella going home on his water slide? I believe that was the first major push for NFC, although it obviously wasn't on a phone. Bear in mind that was in 2008 - six years before Apple invented it.
That said, while Apple may just be catching up on the hardware side, it's very significant they're joining the party because of the massive influence they have. They, probably more than any other brand, have enough marketing power to put it in the mainstream.
Esseesse said:
Do they all work together or when you get to the till can you find that you have the 'wrong' type of NFC?
This is a good point. Apple have almost always ignored standards and gone their own way. The most relevant comparison I can think of is DLNA, which is supported by pretty much everyone but Apple, who have their own equivalent. Their system works great with Apple devices but not with anything else.If they take that approach with Apple Pay then I can't see how it would work. Is a merchant really going to pay twice so they have an Apple Pay machine and a machine for other NFC devices? Are customers going to be asked whether they have an iPhone before paying?
All in all I think it's ace.
I love this futuristic stuff and wish I could use NFC more often than I do.
Blown2CV said:
you don't need itunes to upgrade iOS anyway.
Indeed, but it's a lot faster and less prone to failing IME.Crafty_ said:
NFC doesn't need to be re-applied or improved, there is nothing wrong with it.
Its just a case of retailers spending to put the machines in their shops.
Not even that, over here almost all terminals we've installed in the past couple of years are NFC ready, the retailers just didn't see it as anything they "needed" to do. Like I said, some early adopters in the retail ("trendy" stores) will probably get the ball rolling, and the iPhone finally joining in might be the push they needed.Its just a case of retailers spending to put the machines in their shops.
ZesPak said:
Sorry, have you ever used NFC payments on other devices? It works great and I wouldn't call it "half baked" in any way, shape or form.
Yes, early windows tablets, those were half-baked, but NFC payments are fully functional and easy to use.
And just because their NFC payment solution "catches on", that makes them the "innovators"? Hey, their 5.5" display outsold any other 5.5" display phone in the opening weekend, talk about "innovation"!
I realise I'm in the wrong thread for this, but you really need to take off these glasses you're wearing.
AB said:
vescaegg said:
I have noticed since getting it that I can basically never go straight back to an internet tab without the whole page reloading. Could this be down to that? Dont remember this happening on my 5 to be honest.
This has been pissing me off with both iPhone 5 and iPad since the beginning of time! Edited by vescaegg on Monday 29th September 14:36
twinturboz said:
If you don't think the Apple pay system is innovative then you haven't really looked deep into the workings imo. Apple isn't using their position to enforce their own standard it's just the banks realise that Apples way is a hell of alot better than whats currently out there. Google has had NFC payment since 2011 why has it never caught on? Why is it only when Apple gets to the game it will take off.
I'm interested - can you expand on that please?Going back to bendgate for a moment, some more scientific results are in. They don't look good for the aluminium phones...
http://www.androidauthority.com/consumer-reports-b...
Slightly ironic that the phones considered the most "premium" in terms of build quality are actually the flimsiest. I'm surprised how tough the iPhone 5 is though given how thin it is.
I'm a little disappointed they didn't chuck a Nokia in there too though (especially an old one).
| Phone | Deformation | Case Separation |
|---|---|---|
| HTC One (M8) | 70 pounds | 90 pounds |
| Apple iPhone 6 | 70 pounds | 100 pounds |
| Apple iPhone 6 Plus | 90 pounds | 110 pounds |
| LG G3 | 130 pounds | 130 pounds |
| Apple iPhone 5 | 130 pounds | 150 pounds |
| Samsung Galaxy Note 3 | 150 pounds | 150 pounds |
http://www.androidauthority.com/consumer-reports-b...
Slightly ironic that the phones considered the most "premium" in terms of build quality are actually the flimsiest. I'm surprised how tough the iPhone 5 is though given how thin it is.
I'm a little disappointed they didn't chuck a Nokia in there too though (especially an old one
).twinturboz said:
If you don't think the Apple pay system is innovative then you haven't really looked deep into the workings imo. Apple isn't using their position to enforce their own standard it's just the banks realise that Apples way is a hell of alot better than whats currently out there. Google has had NFC payment since 2011 why has it never caught on? Why is it only when Apple gets to the game it will take off.
I'm well aware of the workings.The reason it hasn't caught on is because of market position. Android has done many things first, but a lot of iPhone users always found them a gimmick, when they are released on the iPhone everyone seems to suddenly think they are innovating and you should use them somehow. Same for this, NFC payments work good and the security systems are there and work well as well. Most people just don't see a need for this, and thus retailers don't either. Apple markets this as a new function in all their ads, with the global release of their new phone (which still grabs headlines in the press!), people become aware of it and want to use this new magical way of paying with their brand new phone.
Apple does have a very good strategy of releasing a few new functions at a time, so they could market them better. NFC payments with Android was an "also ran" in the function list. As said above, Apple is clearly doing something right in the marketing department. Look at this thread alone, the number of people buying a new iPhone without ever having even seen one from a distance.
All in all, it still has to be seen if it catches on now. Like I said, "trendy" chains will adopt first and the rest will follow, it'll still be a process of years 'till it's common ground. The NFC tech is in place not because Apple decided to have a swing at it, but it'll be used because Apple markets it very well.
Their release to market and marketing is commendable, as always, but nothing more than that. Their implementation is the same or very similar to everyone else's and the payment process will be very similar for the user.
J
Just my opinion but they needed to keep a premium 4" rather than drop it for the larger screen. If this meant 3 sizes then so be it.
As for innovation, I personally don't believe that is what most iPhone users are looking for. Certainly not me anyway.
Top build quality.
Small improvements on camera, screen and internals.
Better battery.
IOS updates that improve user experience.
These small and achievable upgrades would keep most iPhone users happy IMO.That's a very good point. As a fan of the iPhone and iPod, along with my wife and virtually all my friends that I can think of right now, I can say that I/we do not want innovation particularly as a priority in our next phone. The whole point of Apple devices surely is that they function in a clear logical way and excel at the basics of what people want to do, coupled with good build quality (not plastic for starters!) - they're the Porsche of the phone world I guess in that respect in that they have conservative design, good build quality and they wait for tech top be perfected before using it, rather than being flash or showy etc. I don't particularly want my phone to do anything cutting edge or fancy, I just want the bits of tech that work well to be presented in a logical and clear manner so I can use it in my daily life quickly and efficiently; I don't want to tinker with something like I might do the latest bit of software at work, my phone is a tool, not a development project. I find Android extremely confusing and un-intuitive and no doubt I'd find the latest bit of tech that only partly works quite frustrating (for the record, I think SIRI does work, despite criticisms, and I use it all the time).
So yes, like you, I wanted the iPhone 6 to be lighter, faster, slimmer and with incremental improvements in the screen, camera etc and that's about it. The increased size disappointed me, but I think I may grow to like it once I have one (I don't have much other choice as most other phones are bigger, and they run Android, which I don't get along with at all).
This is exactly how I feel along with other iPhone users I know.
Ranging from late teens to 60+, it is the ease of use and nice hardware that people like from their iPhone.
RobM77 said:
BenM77 said:
Chim said:
Totally, tied in to the brand now. Come upgrade time it is the easy option, they need to see the sales figures slide before they start putting the effort in again me thinks, that said, its not the easiest thing in the world to keep coming out with the next new thing, they could though have done a lot more with the technology that out there already though.
I have all Apple kit in my house but I don't feel tied in with their phones. I would never stop using their computers but that's a different thread.Just my opinion but they needed to keep a premium 4" rather than drop it for the larger screen. If this meant 3 sizes then so be it.
As for innovation, I personally don't believe that is what most iPhone users are looking for. Certainly not me anyway.
Top build quality.
Small improvements on camera, screen and internals.
Better battery.
IOS updates that improve user experience.
These small and achievable upgrades would keep most iPhone users happy IMO.
So yes, like you, I wanted the iPhone 6 to be lighter, faster, slimmer and with incremental improvements in the screen, camera etc and that's about it. The increased size disappointed me, but I think I may grow to like it once I have one (I don't have much other choice as most other phones are bigger, and they run Android, which I don't get along with at all).
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 29th September 22:49
Ranging from late teens to 60+, it is the ease of use and nice hardware that people like from their iPhone.
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