Discussion
ZesPak said:
twinturboz said:
If you don't think the Apple pay system is innovative then you haven't really looked deep into the workings imo. Apple isn't using their position to enforce their own standard it's just the banks realise that Apples way is a hell of alot better than whats currently out there. Google has had NFC payment since 2011 why has it never caught on? Why is it only when Apple gets to the game it will take off.
I'm well aware of the workings.The reason it hasn't caught on is because of market position. Android has done many things first, but a lot of iPhone users always found them a gimmick, when they are released on the iPhone everyone seems to suddenly think they are innovating and you should use them somehow. Same for this, NFC payments work good and the security systems are there and work well as well. Most people just don't see a need for this, and thus retailers don't either. Apple markets this as a new function in all their ads, with the global release of their new phone (which still grabs headlines in the press!), people become aware of it and want to use this new magical way of paying with their brand new phone.
Apple does have a very good strategy of releasing a few new functions at a time, so they could market them better. NFC payments with Android was an "also ran" in the function list. As said above, Apple is clearly doing something right in the marketing department. Look at this thread alone, the number of people buying a new iPhone without ever having even seen one from a distance.
All in all, it still has to be seen if it catches on now. Like I said, "trendy" chains will adopt first and the rest will follow, it'll still be a process of years 'till it's common ground. The NFC tech is in place not because Apple decided to have a swing at it, but it'll be used because Apple markets it very well.
Their release to market and marketing is commendable, as always, but nothing more than that. Their implementation is the same or very similar to everyone else's and the payment process will be very similar for the user.
Android basically isn't marketed - handsets are, the OS isn't. Google don't need to market it, its just a tool to facilitate their business model.
Apple market IOS like they do because its one of the key drivers for their products.
twinturboz said:
If you don't think the Apple pay system is innovative then you haven't really looked deep into the workings imo. Apple isn't using their position to enforce their own standard it's just the banks realise that Apples way is a hell of alot better than whats currently out there. Google has had NFC payment since 2011 why has it never caught on? Why is it only when Apple gets to the game it will take off.
Not really. The technology for contactless/NFC is fairly easy and been around for a while. The biggest problem in implementing it is the business argument on who is in control and who is taking a cut.The banks and the carriers have been arguing for years about this which has allowed the payments processors and Apple with it's itunes back end to sneak up on them.
ZesPak said:
twinturboz said:
If you don't think the Apple pay system is innovative then you haven't really looked deep into the workings imo. Apple isn't using their position to enforce their own standard it's just the banks realise that Apples way is a hell of alot better than whats currently out there. Google has had NFC payment since 2011 why has it never caught on? Why is it only when Apple gets to the game it will take off.
I'm well aware of the workings.The reason it hasn't caught on is because of market position. Android has done many things first, but a lot of iPhone users always found them a gimmick, when they are released on the iPhone everyone seems to suddenly think they are innovating and you should use them somehow. Same for this, NFC payments work good and the security systems are there and work well as well. Most people just don't see a need for this, and thus retailers don't either. Apple markets this as a new function in all their ads, with the global release of their new phone (which still grabs headlines in the press!), people become aware of it and want to use this new magical way of paying with their brand new phone.
Apple does have a very good strategy of releasing a few new functions at a time, so they could market them better. NFC payments with Android was an "also ran" in the function list. As said above, Apple is clearly doing something right in the marketing department. Look at this thread alone, the number of people buying a new iPhone without ever having even seen one from a distance.
All in all, it still has to be seen if it catches on now. Like I said, "trendy" chains will adopt first and the rest will follow, it'll still be a process of years 'till it's common ground. The NFC tech is in place not because Apple decided to have a swing at it, but it'll be used because Apple markets it very well.
Their release to market and marketing is commendable, as always, but nothing more than that. Their implementation is the same or very similar to everyone else's and the payment process will be very similar for the user.
You said yourself: Most people just don't see a need for this, and thus retailers don't either.
If most people don't see a need for something it better be damn painless for them to bother to use it. Apple know this, don't make your users have to think. Limits on payment amounts without a pin vs is putting a pin in when it's over £20 easier than just using my trusty card (never goes flat) combined with confused branding and therefore uncertainty as to whether it will work is too big a hurdle for anyone who is not a geek to bother with something that they don't see the need for.
Apple Pay is what it sounds like (vs NFC wtf?! - yes I know what it stands for), and there is one process to use it that is secure regardless of the payment amount, just needs a finger not a pin.
What it comes down to is most companies start from a technical end and make something technically workable. Apple starts from the users end (after all what is the point of tech that works that nobody wants to use) and then comes up with a technical solution that comes in below the users effort barrier. If they're not sure it comes in below the max effort required for 99% of users, they don't bother releasing it.
Esseesse said:
You are blinded by thinking it's just Apple marketing combined with idiots loving this 'new magical way of paying'.
What it comes down to is most companies start from a technical end and make something technically workable. Apple starts from the users end (after all what is the point of tech that works that nobody wants to use) and then comes up with a technical solution that comes in below the users effort barrier. If they're not sure it comes in below the max effort required for 99% of users, they don't bother releasing it.
What? Like copy and paste?What it comes down to is most companies start from a technical end and make something technically workable. Apple starts from the users end (after all what is the point of tech that works that nobody wants to use) and then comes up with a technical solution that comes in below the users effort barrier. If they're not sure it comes in below the max effort required for 99% of users, they don't bother releasing it.
Before you get defensive I'm actually looking to pick up a 6+ in a few weeks once the IOS bugs have been ironed out.
Apple sat back and waited for other people to develop the tech before deciding to utilise it themselves. Bit like the "We'll never make a phablet" announcements over the last few years and yet lo and behold...
The only innovation to come out of Cupertino of late is the design of the handset, not any of the tech incorporated within it.
HRL said:
Esseesse said:
You are blinded by thinking it's just Apple marketing combined with idiots loving this 'new magical way of paying'.
What it comes down to is most companies start from a technical end and make something technically workable. Apple starts from the users end (after all what is the point of tech that works that nobody wants to use) and then comes up with a technical solution that comes in below the users effort barrier. If they're not sure it comes in below the max effort required for 99% of users, they don't bother releasing it.
What? Like copy and paste?What it comes down to is most companies start from a technical end and make something technically workable. Apple starts from the users end (after all what is the point of tech that works that nobody wants to use) and then comes up with a technical solution that comes in below the users effort barrier. If they're not sure it comes in below the max effort required for 99% of users, they don't bother releasing it.
Before you get defensive I'm actually looking to pick up a 6+ in a few weeks once the IOS bugs have been ironed out.
Apple sat back and waited for other people to develop the tech before deciding to utilise it themselves. Bit like the "We'll never make a phablet" announcements over the last few years and yet lo and behold...
The only innovation to come out of Cupertino of late is the design of the handset, not any of the tech incorporated within it.
Esseesse said:
As mentioned above. Apple A8 just for starters? Probably the hardest part in the phone by some margin to design, and is a huge and growing strength (difficult to replicate by others).
An incremental improvement over the A7, and?In fact if you look at the tech specs with any scrutiny you'll discover that it may perform "up to" 50% better in the 6, but it loses that advantage with the higher res display on the 6+.
As I said, I'll likely be getting a 6+ soon myself but I've never understood peoples need to be either for or against Apple in general. It's just another Tech company, even if it does have rather large purse strings these days.
With regards to Apple Pay - I agree NFC has been around for ages, I've had it on my old Note 2 for 2 years but can say I have never once used it. And more to the point I wouldn't know how to use to buy something.
What makes Apple so much more likely to pull it off is partly due to the marketing etc but it is also due to the fact that they have millions of people and users, myself included, who already have bank details linked up to Apple through iTunes and the App store - Google doesn't have this infrastructure in the back end. Even banks are impressed with Apples payment and security systems and number of users.
Therefore they can make Apple pay work simply by switching on NFC and not have to worry about setting up Google Wallet etc which never really took off and trying to get people to understand it and sign up to something - they already have!
On top of that they spent the time to get other brands like Starbucks etc on board before they released it.
What makes Apple so much more likely to pull it off is partly due to the marketing etc but it is also due to the fact that they have millions of people and users, myself included, who already have bank details linked up to Apple through iTunes and the App store - Google doesn't have this infrastructure in the back end. Even banks are impressed with Apples payment and security systems and number of users.
Therefore they can make Apple pay work simply by switching on NFC and not have to worry about setting up Google Wallet etc which never really took off and trying to get people to understand it and sign up to something - they already have!
On top of that they spent the time to get other brands like Starbucks etc on board before they released it.
Crafty_ said:
ZesPak said:
twinturboz said:
If you don't think the Apple pay system is innovative then you haven't really looked deep into the workings imo. Apple isn't using their position to enforce their own standard it's just the banks realise that Apples way is a hell of alot better than whats currently out there. Google has had NFC payment since 2011 why has it never caught on? Why is it only when Apple gets to the game it will take off.
I'm well aware of the workings.The reason it hasn't caught on is because of market position. Android has done many things first, but a lot of iPhone users always found them a gimmick, when they are released on the iPhone everyone seems to suddenly think they are innovating and you should use them somehow. Same for this, NFC payments work good and the security systems are there and work well as well. Most people just don't see a need for this, and thus retailers don't either. Apple markets this as a new function in all their ads, with the global release of their new phone (which still grabs headlines in the press!), people become aware of it and want to use this new magical way of paying with their brand new phone.
Apple does have a very good strategy of releasing a few new functions at a time, so they could market them better. NFC payments with Android was an "also ran" in the function list. As said above, Apple is clearly doing something right in the marketing department. Look at this thread alone, the number of people buying a new iPhone without ever having even seen one from a distance.
All in all, it still has to be seen if it catches on now. Like I said, "trendy" chains will adopt first and the rest will follow, it'll still be a process of years 'till it's common ground. The NFC tech is in place not because Apple decided to have a swing at it, but it'll be used because Apple markets it very well.
Their release to market and marketing is commendable, as always, but nothing more than that. Their implementation is the same or very similar to everyone else's and the payment process will be very similar for the user.
Android basically isn't marketed - handsets are, the OS isn't. Google don't need to market it, its just a tool to facilitate their business model.
Apple market IOS like they do because its one of the key drivers for their products.
Without going into detail and I'm no expert, on the specific details of the inner workings i.e. token authentication etc you can basically say that Apple and Google have a similar system in that your card number is never revealed. The innovation with Apple's system is who has access to these.
If we look at the card payment system as it is, the banks are essentially trusting the retailer to verify you are who you say you are, and you use a pin to verify that. Thats great in person but online how do they know that the person who has inputted these card details is actually the card holder? Your still inputting your card number and security number things that companies keep records of. In essence the banks are relying on the online merchant to verify that you are who you are and then also trusting them to keep that information safe.
With Apple however, it creates a secure connection from your device directly to your bank, so all of a sudden now the bank is in control of the identification and verification process. Once they've verified you they electronically place a token and key into the secure enclave on your Apple device.
The innovation again with Apple's custom chip, the token lets just say its your credit card, can't be seen, transferred or modified it can only be deleted. So in effect no one can get your credit card details they can't clone your card or try and obtain your details. The only way to access that information is via your fingerprint in the same regard the only way the payment process works is with your fingerprint and physical access to the device. The banks in essence now only have to rely on Apple's security to be confident that the person making payment is really you.
Apple's recent move on privacy now makes sense, what they are saying to the banks are we have a system where it's truly secure, we don't keep copies of encryption keys so there is no way in. The card details are never uploaded to Apple's server.
It's this part that is the revolutionary part, the fact that your card can't be cloned, theres no network to compromise someone can't read your details when you hand over your card, and the end consumer simply can't be stupid enough to compromise the system either.
Could be mistaken but think it was Zespack who was talking about another terminal, Apple won't do this there's too much work there to build their own infrastructure the ones who have the most work to do in this system is the banks. They have to create this system where they can electronically verify, but then they are the ones who stand to gain the most from this system.
Now the small banks well you can argue how will they get onto this system that's where Apple becomes the token issuer. Pay with Apple means the transaction will go to Apple to approve who will look up those 800 million cards they have on file and again without going into specific details they process the payment on behalf of the small banks in the same way as they process your card when you buy an app or song.
I think I mentioned in the share tip thread that potentially this system goes past just payments. Apple have a secure system all based around touch id and the secure enclave and in effect they are renting this system out to the banks for a charge. This could go further and be rented out to business instead as a way to replace the username and password combo, or to the healthcare providers to access your health records.
If you really take the idea further what's to say eventually they won't be able to virtualise your passport or drivers licence in the same way you just need the person issuing those tokens to be trusted by multiple agencies.
The competition can't copy this, Samsung can make a version of Apple's secure enclave but they would need to get a fingerprint reader into their phones. There's one company who made these relatively cheap.. Apple bought them. Secondly they would need control of the OS they don't have that Google does. Google can't compete because they simply don't make enough hardware to implement the system themselves.
Anderoid just has too many players in the puzzle and and would need to form partnerships across all of them
Edited by twinturboz on Tuesday 30th September 13:27
Eddw86 said:
What makes Apple so much more likely to pull it off is partly due to the marketing etc but it is also due to the fact that they have millions of people and users, myself included, who already have bank details linked up to Apple through iTunes and the App store - Google doesn't have this infrastructure in the back end. Even banks are impressed with Apples payment and security systems and number of users.
Hmm, I must be the exception having both Apple and Android products yet google has my bank details.Both platforms "request" it, but neither enforces it (until you make a purchase).
From my POV, NFC payments will be nearly identical on iOS as they are on Android.
Get the device, set up bank/card details, hold phone to payment terminal, confirm.
ZesPak said:
Eddw86 said:
What makes Apple so much more likely to pull it off is partly due to the marketing etc but it is also due to the fact that they have millions of people and users, myself included, who already have bank details linked up to Apple through iTunes and the App store - Google doesn't have this infrastructure in the back end. Even banks are impressed with Apples payment and security systems and number of users.
Hmm, I must be the exception having both Apple and Android products yet google has my bank details.Both platforms "request" it, but neither enforces it (until you make a purchase).
From my POV, NFC payments will be nearly identical on iOS as they are on Android.
Get the device, set up bank/card details, hold phone to payment terminal, confirm.
Blown2CV said:
except with the added PIN/finger step on iPhone, so it's genuinely 2-factor.
? Not trying to be obtuse here, but here's how it works on the Android devices we tested:- You'll have to unlock your phone as per your settings, might be pin/pattern/fingerprint or no lock
- The NFC payment will trigger the opening of your payment app, with the security set. Low payments (sub £20 in the UK) can be set to need no extra pin, higher payments will require extra identification
TheJimi said:
Zes, seriously, why do you bother with threads related to Apple kit, and in particluar, iOS devices?
All you've done in this thread is tubthump for android - same way you always do in any apple related thread.
When you gave the rofles an outing over the article about password suggestion, I could almost sense your glee from here.
Give it a rest man.
Sorry, I forgot you have to look out and these threads really can't take some criticism. The reason is that these phones and platforms, for the time being, are my bread and butter. I think my post above as to how the Apple payment is different is hardly uncalled for?All you've done in this thread is tubthump for android - same way you always do in any apple related thread.
When you gave the rofles an outing over the article about password suggestion, I could almost sense your glee from here.
Give it a rest man.
On top of that, I own Apple kit and I've owned more, I'm always on the lookout for new and interesting gear. But apparently you have to be ignoring the competition when looking at Apple stuff?
Oh yes, the password suggestion thing. Some people like to place Apple on some sort of pedestal, while they can easily make some sleazy 3rd party app manufacturer wouldn't. It's always good to have a reminder of that every now and then.
TL;DR
Apple is great, can't wait till this new fangled magic payment thing comes at my local starbucks!
ZesPak said:
Blown2CV said:
except with the added PIN/finger step on iPhone, so it's genuinely 2-factor.
? Not trying to be obtuse here, but here's how it works on the Android devices we tested:- You'll have to unlock your phone as per your settings, might be pin/pattern/fingerprint or no lock
- The NFC payment will trigger the opening of your payment app, with the security set. Low payments (sub £20 in the UK) can be set to need no extra pin, higher payments will require extra identification
Blown2CV said:
ZesPak said:
Blown2CV said:
except with the added PIN/finger step on iPhone, so it's genuinely 2-factor.
? Not trying to be obtuse here, but here's how it works on the Android devices we tested:- You'll have to unlock your phone as per your settings, might be pin/pattern/fingerprint or no lock
- The NFC payment will trigger the opening of your payment app, with the security set. Low payments (sub £20 in the UK) can be set to need no extra pin, higher payments will require extra identification
HRL said:
Esseesse said:
As mentioned above. Apple A8 just for starters? Probably the hardest part in the phone by some margin to design, and is a huge and growing strength (difficult to replicate by others).
An incremental improvement over the A7, and?In fact if you look at the tech specs with any scrutiny you'll discover that it may perform "up to" 50% better in the 6, but it loses that advantage with the higher res display on the 6+.
HRL said:
As I said, I'll likely be getting a 6+ soon myself but I've never understood peoples need to be either for or against Apple in general. It's just another Tech company, even if it does have rather large purse strings these days.
I am certainly not for or against Apple in general, their lead in SOC design is just a matter of fact (as is normally Intels over AMD in the x86 desktop space).twinturboz said:
Without going into detail and I'm no expert, on the specific details of the inner workings i.e. token authentication etc
Clearly not, as evidenced by what you've written below.twinturboz said:
With Apple however, it creates a secure connection from your device directly to your bank, so all of a sudden now the bank is in control of the identification and verification process. Once they've verified you they electronically place a token and key into the secure enclave on your Apple device.
The innovation again with Apple's custom chip, the token lets just say its your credit card, can't be seen, transferred or modified it can only be deleted. So in effect no one can get your credit card details they can't clone your card or try and obtain your details. The only way to access that information is via your fingerprint in the same regard the only way the payment process works is with your fingerprint and physical access to the device. The banks in essence now only have to rely on Apple's security to be confident that the person making payment is really you.
Apple's recent move on privacy now makes sense, what they are saying to the banks are we have a system where it's truly secure, we don't keep copies of encryption keys so there is no way in. The card details are never uploaded to Apple's server.
It's this part that is the revolutionary part, the fact that your card can't be cloned, theres no network to compromise someone can't read your details when you hand over your card, and the end consumer simply can't be stupid enough to compromise the system either.
Could be mistaken but think it was Zespack who was talking about another terminal, Apple won't do this there's too much work there to build their own infrastructure the ones who have the most work to do in this system is the banks. They have to create this system where they can electronically verify, but then they are the ones who stand to gain the most from this system.
.....
The competition can't copy this, Samsung can make a version of Apple's secure enclave but they would need to get a fingerprint reader into their phones. There's one company who made these relatively cheap.. Apple bought them. Secondly they would need control of the OS they don't have that Google does. Google can't compete because they simply don't make enough hardware to implement the system themselves.
Anderoid just has too many players in the puzzle and and would need to form partnerships across all of them
It's clear you have some basic knowledge, but it just shows how assumptions can be dangerous if you don't know how things really work.The innovation again with Apple's custom chip, the token lets just say its your credit card, can't be seen, transferred or modified it can only be deleted. So in effect no one can get your credit card details they can't clone your card or try and obtain your details. The only way to access that information is via your fingerprint in the same regard the only way the payment process works is with your fingerprint and physical access to the device. The banks in essence now only have to rely on Apple's security to be confident that the person making payment is really you.
Apple's recent move on privacy now makes sense, what they are saying to the banks are we have a system where it's truly secure, we don't keep copies of encryption keys so there is no way in. The card details are never uploaded to Apple's server.
It's this part that is the revolutionary part, the fact that your card can't be cloned, theres no network to compromise someone can't read your details when you hand over your card, and the end consumer simply can't be stupid enough to compromise the system either.
Could be mistaken but think it was Zespack who was talking about another terminal, Apple won't do this there's too much work there to build their own infrastructure the ones who have the most work to do in this system is the banks. They have to create this system where they can electronically verify, but then they are the ones who stand to gain the most from this system.
.....
The competition can't copy this, Samsung can make a version of Apple's secure enclave but they would need to get a fingerprint reader into their phones. There's one company who made these relatively cheap.. Apple bought them. Secondly they would need control of the OS they don't have that Google does. Google can't compete because they simply don't make enough hardware to implement the system themselves.
Anderoid just has too many players in the puzzle and and would need to form partnerships across all of them
Edited by twinturboz on Tuesday 30th September 13:27
. I have no experience in this field simply an Apple shareholder who does a bit of research. Where did I go wrong?Suffice it to say that your assumption that a secure token or similar concept being located on the device is an Apple innovation, is incorrect. I'm not going to go into it in depth (sorry to be all PH) however that is also how android devices work with NFC, albeit using the SIM card and secure communication with various systems and infrastructure provided by both the mobile operator and the banking 'system' or provider. The SIM card is then tied to the device so it cannot be used in any other device. The SIM is then protected by a PIN decided by the user much like your bank card.
You are right to say however that the fact that Android is a universal OS being used by different device manufacturers presents a degree of complexity (and development cost) in the implementation of the above.
However some have correctly alluded to the fact that a major barrier is retailers upgrading their terminals to NFC (and indeed all getting compatible terminals, as there are different types).
You are right to say however that the fact that Android is a universal OS being used by different device manufacturers presents a degree of complexity (and development cost) in the implementation of the above.
However some have correctly alluded to the fact that a major barrier is retailers upgrading their terminals to NFC (and indeed all getting compatible terminals, as there are different types).
Fair enough I stand corrected.
ZesPak said:
How will the Apple implementation be different?
As far as I'm aware doesn't the iPhone just require you to be near the nfc terminal and then finger on the touch id to process payment. Don't think you need to open apps or unlock the actual device. twinturboz said:
Fair enough I stand corrected.
That's a bit semantics really, the fingerprint, however easy and well implemented, is still an "unlock".ZesPak said:
How will the Apple implementation be different?
As far as I'm aware doesn't the iPhone just require you to be near the nfc terminal and then finger on the touch id to process payment. Don't think you need to open apps or unlock the actual device. You don't need to open an app either, it "triggers" the opening of the app, so all you get is a pop up with the amount/payment type/...:
Here's an example of it on a Galaxy S2:
Anyway, a lot of these terminals have big displays so you could read off the amount from there so there's indeed no need for the amount to show up on your phone.
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