BT's relic-grade broadband

Author
Discussion

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
AOL:
Not available
O2 / Be:
Not available
C&W:
Not available
Edge Telecom:
Not available
Entanet:
Not available
Fluency:
Not available
KC (Kingston):
Not available
Lumison:
Not available
Timico Partners:
Not available
Node4:
Not available
Pipex:
Not available
Redcentric:
Not available
Rutland Telecom:
Not available
Sky:
Not available
Smallworld:
Not available
Spectrum:
Not available
TalkTalk (CPW):
Not available
Tiscali:
Not available
Tiscali TV:
Not available
WB Internet:
Not available
Zen Internet:
Not available



Nothing from anyone.

But BT managed to stuff their Fibre into it... but not to my cabinet.


So it's a full on BT monopoly around here, and shafting the ADSL users with almost identical costs to the Fibre.


Like I say, BT are my last choice ever.

Dave

gpo746

3,397 posts

129 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Virgin have just upped their prices by around £3.60 odd or so a month

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
It's inflation innit.

Salaries stood still, infrastructure investment not significantly higher.

You can only imagine that the money must just be going to the directors who want to self-congratulate their ability to hike prices and customers be dumb enough to let them hehe


Ah UK telecoms. Yet over in South Korea you'd probably get a Gigabit connection for the same prices we pay for st ADSL here... (probably, I have no idea, I just hear it's very good there because they invest in their long term prosperity and not just short-term profit grabs)

Dave

bimsb6

8,034 posts

220 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
[quote=Mr


The only reason they got my business this time was because of their own failing in LLU and database management!
[/quote]



Do you seriously think it is bt's fault that nobody else considers your exchange as a viable site to put their kit in to enable you to have an option of llu ?

Edited by bimsb6 on Tuesday 25th November 17:42

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
bimsb6 said:
[quote=Mr


The only reason they got my business this time was because of their own failing in LLU and database management!



Do you seriously think it is bt's fault that nobody else considers your exchange as a viable site to put their kit in to enable you to have an option of llu ?
BT managed to put Fibre there, so how did they deem it viable to even do that?

It'll have cost them a fortune to offer Fibre here, if they can charge people the same price for the existing ADSL connections without competition.

To me something doesn't stack up.

Why did they do that unless there wasn't competition? Or if there isn't competition why have they just wasted money on something that will probably never repay for the investment?




And it still doesn't forgive their completely useless response to simply turning on a telephone line and making the internet work on it... which apparently it had done perfectly fine just months before they deactivated it when the previous home owners left!

They're idiots. Expensive monopolistic useless idiots.


Sadly, all the actual real people I get to meet have been great... but they're backed up by central policy and call centre staff who are less use than a chocolate fire guard.

Dave

bimsb6

8,034 posts

220 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
That is a bizarre argument chap ! Llu has nothing to do with fibre , all exchanges are linked together with fibre anyway . Fttc is partly funded by government money so may never give a return on the FULL cost which is why all the other companies that originaly bid for the work pulled out , try getting virgin to provide you with a service that will never return any revenue .

bimsb6

8,034 posts

220 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Didn't I read somewhere that BT's liabilities for operation are something like 50-75% for promised benefits/pensions?

There is no surprise they can't compete to save their lives.




Dave
Britains biggest broadband supplier can't compete ?

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
bimsb6 said:
That is a bizarre argument chap ! Llu has nothing to do with fibre , all exchanges are linked together with fibre anyway . Fttc is partly funded by government money so may never give a return on the FULL cost which is why all the other companies that originaly bid for the work pulled out , try getting virgin to provide you with a service that will never return any revenue .
Have virgin ever actually expanded their service area? Rather than their spending on 'new infrastructure'being upgrading or replacing service all ready in place from the original cablecos?

And i see the usual confusion between BT retail and Openreach has come into play

MissChief

7,095 posts

167 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
FTTC rollout is partly funded by the government where not commercially viable to do it anyway. Openreach have been rolling out FTTC in high population areas for several years now.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
bimsb6 said:
That is a bizarre argument chap ! Llu has nothing to do with fibre , all exchanges are linked together with fibre anyway . Fttc is partly funded by government money so may never give a return on the FULL cost which is why all the other companies that originaly bid for the work pulled out , try getting virgin to provide you with a service that will never return any revenue .
Following that logic, wired data transmission is dead, and so by definition is BT.

If I can get a 3G signal here with an aerial, it only needs a 4G upgrade and why would you even bother with ADSL on BT, or Fibre even?


I know LLU is nothing to do with fibre, but there was a business model for Fibre at that exchange, so surely there is sufficient business for other ADSL providers, or Fibre providers, to put their kit in the exchange too?

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 26th November 12:46

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
bimsb6 said:
Mr Whippy said:
Didn't I read somewhere that BT's liabilities for operation are something like 50-75% for promised benefits/pensions?

There is no surprise they can't compete to save their lives.




Dave
Britains biggest broadband supplier can't compete ?
Britains biggest provider because of ownership of the infrastructure at inception.

Yes, they can't compete once competition exists.


I'm sure I'm not the only consumer with them because there is no viable alternative. And that isn't because of some savvy BT management, it's because BT inherited amazingly wide coverage infrastructure and all the local exchanges.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
MissChief said:
FTTC rollout is partly funded by the government where not commercially viable to do it anyway. Openreach have been rolling out FTTC in high population areas for several years now.
Yes, much the same was said for ADSL, but it did come to rural areas eventually...

But back then there wasn't 3G and mobile phones/internet. The best you had was some 28.8k WAP or something similar in the early days of ADSL.


Even now 3G is faster in most cases than ADSL, and 4G matches FTTC.

Given that competition that didn't exist back in the ADSL rollout days it does make you wonder how long BT will be able to provide it's very expensive services for in rural areas!


Dave

thescamper

920 posts

225 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
You lot should count yourself lucky, I can throw stones at the local upgraded exchange, both my neighbours have BT Infinity, but I can never have infinity because I have what is called an exchange line so I am limited to 6m on a good day, there is no hope of better without a new wire from my house to the box in the street ££££££££££££

trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
But back then there wasn't 3G and mobile phones/internet. The best you had was some 28.8k WAP or something similar in the early days of ADSL.
Kind of. Domestic ADSL rollout (512k) was mid-2000. CSD WAP (dialup, 9.6k!) was the mobile standard at that time, but wasn't long before it was supplanted by GPRS (35-115k) in about 2001. It was then quite some time before anything faster was widely adopted.

Mr Whippy said:
Even now 3G is faster in most cases than ADSL, and 4G matches FTTC.
I think that's a stretch. The fastest 3G product in the UK is HSPA+, potentially 42Mbps but I would be very surprised indeed if you ever saw that at the sharp end. It's comparatively easy to get a 20Mbps ADSL connection that you can actually max out in practice. I have one in a large village/small town.

Ofcom say average 4G performance is 15Mbps, which is about the worst case scenario for FTTC - up to 100Mbps there. In anywhere properly served (which I appreciate is the point of all this, but is also the average) there's no contest between fixed line and mobile.

Edited by trashbat on Wednesday 26th November 13:21

trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
thescamper said:
You lot should count yourself lucky, I can throw stones at the local upgraded exchange, both my neighbours have BT Infinity, but I can never have infinity because I have what is called an exchange line so I am limited to 6m on a good day, there is no hope of better without a new wire from my house to the box in the street ££££££££££££
Same for me in that I have an exchange-only (EO) line. No FTTC when you don't have the C. Anyway BT have got a plan to deal with these in general, so in time the problem will go away, but they're not being very specific about it for now.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
trashbat said:
Mr Whippy said:
But back then there wasn't 3G and mobile phones/internet. The best you had was some 28.8k WAP or something similar in the early days of ADSL.
Kind of. Domestic ADSL rollout (512k) was mid-2000. CSD WAP (dialup, 9.6k!) was the mobile standard at that time, but wasn't long before it was supplanted by GPRS (35-115k) in about 2001. It was then quite some time before anything faster was widely adopted.

Mr Whippy said:
Even now 3G is faster in most cases than ADSL, and 4G matches FTTC.
I think that's a stretch. The fastest 3G product in the UK is HSPA+, potentially 42Mbps but I would be very surprised indeed if you ever saw that at the sharp end. It's comparatively easy to get a 20Mbps ADSL connection that you can actually max out in practice. I have one in a large village/small town.

Ofcom say average 4G performance is 15Mbps, which is about the worst case scenario for FTTC - up to 100Mbps there. In anywhere properly served (which I appreciate is the point of all this, but is also the average) there's no contest between fixed line and mobile.

Edited by trashbat on Wednesday 26th November 13:21
I suppose cities are different. But in most cities you can get fibre now any way.

But all the rurally type areas the best you'll get is probably 2-6mb ADSL with 0.4mb upload.

3G is about 8mb download in most places where ADSL is poor, and upload is many times as fast, say around 3-4mb iirc.


Of course if we say all rural areas just stop getting served with wires, then fine, but it's silly when 3G mobile supersedes actual wire based infrastructure in rural areas, infrastructure that is mostly very old with only exchange upgrades over a decade ago that have even provided something near to 3G which is more a by-product service aside mobile phone coverage.

Rural areas are being ignored quite a bit which is sad. It's amazing we ever got phone lines out here to begin with the way people go on about the costs... which as I've alluded to, seem tremendously high. But as noted if this is because BT/OpenReach have billions in pension/benefit liabilities it's no wonder progress costs so much!

Dave

bimjim

249 posts

162 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
wiffmaster said:
- Parent's house, in the middle of the countryside, cannot even see the nearest neighbour - a little under 50 Mbps.

- My flat, in the middle of Islington in Central London - a little under 8 Mbps.

It's not just rural areas where the broadband speeds are shocking - it's really luck of the draw. My 4G mobile can give me 35 Mbps in my flat. I'm very tempted to give Relish Broadband a go, as it should be much faster and cheaper without the line rental.
We're in a similar situation, as our office is in Islington. The BT connection was poor, circa 3.5Mb/s, as we're on a direct link to the exchange at King's Cross, so no street side cabinets. Virgin's offering had better speed but was too flaky.

We went with Relish three months ago and so far it's all working well. Currently running around 30 Mb/s. It's definitely worth looking into, if you're in range.


Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
trashbat said:
thescamper said:
You lot should count yourself lucky, I can throw stones at the local upgraded exchange, both my neighbours have BT Infinity, but I can never have infinity because I have what is called an exchange line so I am limited to 6m on a good day, there is no hope of better without a new wire from my house to the box in the street ££££££££££££
Same for me in that I have an exchange-only (EO) line. No FTTC when you don't have the C. Anyway BT have got a plan to deal with these in general, so in time the problem will go away, but they're not being very specific about it for now.
Do you actually share a line with a few homes?

If that line has all it's connections used up, and you had a new one fitted, would it still be suffering with this same issue.

Perhaps get a new line and then retire the old one, with overlap of course.

Dave

Rosscow

8,723 posts

162 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
Since our exchange was upgraded by BT in the summer, we have now upgraded to BT Infinity 2.

We are fairly rural, and are about 3 miles from the exchange. We used to get 1mbps.

We are now enjoying approximately 75mbps download and 18mbps upload on our wired connections (PC, PS3 and Sky box). It's a revelation.

The BT HomeHub 5 wireless however, is a joke. So I bought a TP Link wireless access point which is much more stable and I get between 45mbps and 68mbps over the wifi network (I'm guessing the fluctuation is due to how many wireless devices are being used and how strong the signal is).

Rosscow

8,723 posts

162 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
Interestingly I can play golf on my golf course (which is hemmed in by the sea on one side and not a lot else on the other) and get 40mbps+ on my 4G connection.

Walk the dog in the orchards? Minimum is a 3G connection but often I'm lucky to also get a 20mbps+ 4G connection.