Discussion
feef said:
I think that is the root of any disagreement we might have over disk based systems
NAS are, as their name suggests, Network Attached Storage, it's not a backup tape or a simple backup device that is written to once a night and left forever, it's used as online, realtime storage as much as the harddrive in the desktop and laptop machines in use
Certainly, when NAS devices were expensive and relatively new technologies to the consumer market, your assertion that they are used more for archiving would have been true, but these days, they are in use as much as the desktop drives of the machines accessing them
No, I'm fully aware of how you would use them. We have one here sitting on the desk. All the computers in the office use it as the place to store files so that they are accessible to everyone else. When we shut the NAS will go into a standby as it will do during the day when no one is asking for or sending it information. The vast majority of information is stored for a long period of time & the drives aren't getting constantly over written.NAS are, as their name suggests, Network Attached Storage, it's not a backup tape or a simple backup device that is written to once a night and left forever, it's used as online, realtime storage as much as the harddrive in the desktop and laptop machines in use
Certainly, when NAS devices were expensive and relatively new technologies to the consumer market, your assertion that they are used more for archiving would have been true, but these days, they are in use as much as the desktop drives of the machines accessing them
Henry
MrCheese said:
Does anyone know whether it is possible to buy different lenses for the Hikvision cameras? I don't mind taking the cameras apart and invalidating warranty etc but I can't find anywhere that sells replacement lenses
http://www.amazon.co.uk/HIKVISION-DS-2CD2032-1-Nig...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/HIKVISION-DS-2CD2032-1-Nig...
Magic919 said:
You're going about things totally the wrong way. Buy cameras with a vari-focal lens which allows you to balance detail capture with area covered during installation. The reality is you won't end up using a setting which is available as a fixed lens, it will be somewhere in between. Besides to work out the exact lens is really hard. It's all well and good coming up with a theoretical number but in reality you zoom in and out until you are happy with the detail captured. It's a bit like trying to decide which gear you want fitting to a single gear car. Better to fit a 5 speed gearbox. What we do when looking at people's sites is decide what ratios they will need in that gearbox for each camera location. A car driving in town up to 40mph will, in CCTV terms, be different to one used on main roads and that in turn will be different to one blasting down the Autobahn at 150mph plus. Cameras aren't as versatile as the gearbox in a car.
Henry
Henry-F said:
feef said:
I think that is the root of any disagreement we might have over disk based systems
NAS are, as their name suggests, Network Attached Storage, it's not a backup tape or a simple backup device that is written to once a night and left forever, it's used as online, realtime storage as much as the harddrive in the desktop and laptop machines in use
Certainly, when NAS devices were expensive and relatively new technologies to the consumer market, your assertion that they are used more for archiving would have been true, but these days, they are in use as much as the desktop drives of the machines accessing them
No, I'm fully aware of how you would use them. We have one here sitting on the desk. All the computers in the office use it as the place to store files so that they are accessible to everyone else. When we shut the NAS will go into a standby as it will do during the day when no one is asking for or sending it information. The vast majority of information is stored for a long period of time & the drives aren't getting constantly over written.NAS are, as their name suggests, Network Attached Storage, it's not a backup tape or a simple backup device that is written to once a night and left forever, it's used as online, realtime storage as much as the harddrive in the desktop and laptop machines in use
Certainly, when NAS devices were expensive and relatively new technologies to the consumer market, your assertion that they are used more for archiving would have been true, but these days, they are in use as much as the desktop drives of the machines accessing them
I've been tempted to add CCTV for the last year or so, but the confusion about what I really need means I've never got around to it. However - last night I discovered that the weirdo a couple of doors down from me is involved in.... less than legal activities - which means I now really do want to add CCTV.
I think 4 cameras would be more than sufficient, I would want HD and the camera range should be up to about 20-30m. Plus I need a DVR obviously (although I do have a 20TB Synology NAS so in theory I guess I could use that). Think I may talk to Henry - although it might be useful for others on the thread if he suggested which items from his company would meet these requirements?
I think 4 cameras would be more than sufficient, I would want HD and the camera range should be up to about 20-30m. Plus I need a DVR obviously (although I do have a 20TB Synology NAS so in theory I guess I could use that). Think I may talk to Henry - although it might be useful for others on the thread if he suggested which items from his company would meet these requirements?
Henry-F said:
DVRs are different to NAS in that you have a relatively short term storage of maybe 3-4 weeks which is rolled over. Your NAS tends to store things on a very long term archive basis.
NAS drives can do whatever you like, they can do exactly the same as a DVR plus lots more due to the various software options. They are just a computer after all and you can configure it to do anything.I am not clear why you feel a DVR is better than a modern NAS, its simply not true. Take a look at this for example that is free with any synology NAS: https://www.synology.com/en-us/surveillance/7.1
I didn't get around to ordering anything last year - because there are so many options, I found it difficult to make a choice. And in fact, the drug dealing neighbour moved out several months ago.
However, a couple of days ago my neighbours were broken into and sounds like the house was fairly trashed while the thieves were looking for stuff worth stealing. I assume my alarm put them off trying my house, but for peace of mind I decided I definitely needed some kind of camera system.
It was a bit of a snap decision - I decided that I didn't want something that recorded to NAS, because then I'd have to find somewhere to put the NAS where it couldn't be stolen. So I wanted something that recorded to the cloud.
I've gone with a couple of Y-CAM IP cameras. Not particularly cheap (~£160 each from Amazon) but you do get 7 days free cloud storage per camera and can pay for more (relatively cheaply) if you want. There are mixed reviews on the picture quality - but in reality, I'm not really expecting to be able to identify faces since these days they'd only get a slap on the wrist anyway. It's more of a visual deterrent and to see what happened if anything does.
They should arrive today, so I'll probably fit them at the weekend. If I'm happy with them, I may get a couple more - maybe even some internals.
Will update once I've tried them.
However, a couple of days ago my neighbours were broken into and sounds like the house was fairly trashed while the thieves were looking for stuff worth stealing. I assume my alarm put them off trying my house, but for peace of mind I decided I definitely needed some kind of camera system.
It was a bit of a snap decision - I decided that I didn't want something that recorded to NAS, because then I'd have to find somewhere to put the NAS where it couldn't be stolen. So I wanted something that recorded to the cloud.
I've gone with a couple of Y-CAM IP cameras. Not particularly cheap (~£160 each from Amazon) but you do get 7 days free cloud storage per camera and can pay for more (relatively cheaply) if you want. There are mixed reviews on the picture quality - but in reality, I'm not really expecting to be able to identify faces since these days they'd only get a slap on the wrist anyway. It's more of a visual deterrent and to see what happened if anything does.
They should arrive today, so I'll probably fit them at the weekend. If I'm happy with them, I may get a couple more - maybe even some internals.
Will update once I've tried them.
The Y-Cams are OK. I had a Y-Cam Black some time ago - it was pretty good. I'd positioned it by our back gate where you'd need to actively do something to avoid hiding your appearance.
Henry-F is right on the lens thing - you can see that there are people at the furthest edge of the pic, but it's only when they get to a certain distance that you can get proper facial recognition.
I put together a system with ZoneMinder open source software, some ebay cameras and an old PC with a 1TB drive. I can FTP stuff to a NAS on a batch basis.
There's more Open Source stuff now. Might be better than ZoneMinder, who knows....
Henry-F is right on the lens thing - you can see that there are people at the furthest edge of the pic, but it's only when they get to a certain distance that you can get proper facial recognition.
I put together a system with ZoneMinder open source software, some ebay cameras and an old PC with a 1TB drive. I can FTP stuff to a NAS on a batch basis.
There's more Open Source stuff now. Might be better than ZoneMinder, who knows....
I added a few cheap (not Y-cam) internal IP cameras to my order today, since the Y-Cams won't let me view live video. They should let me check the house remotely if / when the alarm goes off to see whether it's a genuine or false alarm.
(ETA : Actually, Y-Cam do let you view live video)
(ETA : Actually, Y-Cam do let you view live video)
Edited by davek_964 on Friday 30th September 12:30
Henry-F said:
Cameras that only record on motion run the risk of missing potentially important footage. You want the trigger patch to be as small as possible to reduce the number of false triggers. Sometimes the gaps are as important as the footage. When someone claims they turned around and went away but didn't you can't prove it because you don't have footage for that time.
As an industry CCTV is terrible for incorrect and misleading information to the point where peoples expectations are often a country mile away from reality. Spend a bit of time in the planning stage though and you can get a very effective system. Have a look at our CCTV help and advice pages. It will hopefully make you a more educated buyer and if you do have any questions please feel free to get in touch either directly or via PH without obligation.
Henry
Any of your systems do face tracking, or automatically move the PTZ cameras to face track or zoom in?As an industry CCTV is terrible for incorrect and misleading information to the point where peoples expectations are often a country mile away from reality. Spend a bit of time in the planning stage though and you can get a very effective system. Have a look at our CCTV help and advice pages. It will hopefully make you a more educated buyer and if you do have any questions please feel free to get in touch either directly or via PH without obligation.
Henry
So, had a play about with my new cameras last night - the external Y-cams, and the internal cheapo ones (Vstarcam). Here are some first impressions :
I'm a little underwhelmed by the Y-cam. It can be quite slow to connect to the camera remotely to view live video (and for some reason last night, I couldn't connect live), although since it uploads recordings to the cloud that isn't a particularly big deal.
Image quality seems OK in daylight and at night via IR.
Zone triggering is useless - it triggers even when motion is clearly outside the zone, which makes the alerts pointless.
I didn't check the focal length, but at least for my house the field of vision is narrower than I would have liked. I did mount one of the cameras last night, but think I'm going to move it so that it looks across the front of the house rather than out from the house - and then order another camera which can look across the house from the other side.
All in all, it's adequate, but I am not stunned by it at all.
The (internal) Vstarcam on the other hand (£35 on Amazon) is brilliant. Excellent image quality, records continuously to SD card, can be remote controlled, and allows 5 preset positions to be stored - so you can quickly switch views. Obviously if somebody broke into my house they could be smashed to pieces or taken very easily - but for checking whether I have a problem when the alarm goes off, or for monitoring what's happening outside - they are brilliant. Of course, IR doesn't work through windows so they are limited at night.
I will probably need a 3rd external camera - since I already have 2, I will probably end up with another Y-cam. But I am tempted to give the Vstarcam external camera a go for half the price!
I'm a little underwhelmed by the Y-cam. It can be quite slow to connect to the camera remotely to view live video (and for some reason last night, I couldn't connect live), although since it uploads recordings to the cloud that isn't a particularly big deal.
Image quality seems OK in daylight and at night via IR.
Zone triggering is useless - it triggers even when motion is clearly outside the zone, which makes the alerts pointless.
I didn't check the focal length, but at least for my house the field of vision is narrower than I would have liked. I did mount one of the cameras last night, but think I'm going to move it so that it looks across the front of the house rather than out from the house - and then order another camera which can look across the house from the other side.
All in all, it's adequate, but I am not stunned by it at all.
The (internal) Vstarcam on the other hand (£35 on Amazon) is brilliant. Excellent image quality, records continuously to SD card, can be remote controlled, and allows 5 preset positions to be stored - so you can quickly switch views. Obviously if somebody broke into my house they could be smashed to pieces or taken very easily - but for checking whether I have a problem when the alarm goes off, or for monitoring what's happening outside - they are brilliant. Of course, IR doesn't work through windows so they are limited at night.
I will probably need a 3rd external camera - since I already have 2, I will probably end up with another Y-cam. But I am tempted to give the Vstarcam external camera a go for half the price!
Edited by davek_964 on Friday 30th September 12:41
An update for anybody else thinking of buying CCTV :
I did order an outside Vstarcam - but it went straight back. The connection for the power was on a block which also contained an ethernet port. So even if you used it wirelessly, you either had to make the connection weather proof (the connection was clearly meant to be made internally) - or drill a rectangular 3cm x 2cm hole in your wall to get the connector inside.
It's a shame, because the internal cameras continue to be great.
The much more expensive Y-cams.... don't. At the start of this week, the front one appeared to have crashed - I couldn't connect to it and it hadn't uploaded any videos all day. I powered it off / on and it seemed happy again.
But not for long. I noticed yesterday it hadn't uploaded any videos all day. I could view live video remotely, but there were no recordings. Last night I tried deleting it, resetting it and adding it to my account again - but it's not solved the problem. It has a strong wi-fi connection (it's outside the bedroom window and there is a wireless point in the bedroom) and according to speed tests should have about 3Mb/s uplink speed.
When there is movement, it flashes as if it is recording - but doesn't upload anything.
The one at the back of the house still seems to be working fine - tree movement / moths / birds etc. are all enough to cause it to upload videos. But the one at the front only managed to work for a week.
I am currently debating whether to ask Amazon to replace the front one, or send them both back and look for another solution. They haven't really impressed me that much - but IF a replacement works reliably, then they do the basic job (but Amazon reviews suggest I am not the first person to have this problem).
I did order an outside Vstarcam - but it went straight back. The connection for the power was on a block which also contained an ethernet port. So even if you used it wirelessly, you either had to make the connection weather proof (the connection was clearly meant to be made internally) - or drill a rectangular 3cm x 2cm hole in your wall to get the connector inside.
It's a shame, because the internal cameras continue to be great.
The much more expensive Y-cams.... don't. At the start of this week, the front one appeared to have crashed - I couldn't connect to it and it hadn't uploaded any videos all day. I powered it off / on and it seemed happy again.
But not for long. I noticed yesterday it hadn't uploaded any videos all day. I could view live video remotely, but there were no recordings. Last night I tried deleting it, resetting it and adding it to my account again - but it's not solved the problem. It has a strong wi-fi connection (it's outside the bedroom window and there is a wireless point in the bedroom) and according to speed tests should have about 3Mb/s uplink speed.
When there is movement, it flashes as if it is recording - but doesn't upload anything.
The one at the back of the house still seems to be working fine - tree movement / moths / birds etc. are all enough to cause it to upload videos. But the one at the front only managed to work for a week.
I am currently debating whether to ask Amazon to replace the front one, or send them both back and look for another solution. They haven't really impressed me that much - but IF a replacement works reliably, then they do the basic job (but Amazon reviews suggest I am not the first person to have this problem).
davek_964 said:
Yep - the ads etc. are a bit corny, and the translation from Chinese isn't the best. I expected them to be fairly rubbish but they are actually very good! Of course, they may not last - but they're doing better than the expensive cameras so far.
Wasn't laughing at your choice, just the dodgy ads as you mention.Can you send a link to the exact model you are using, for money I might just get one to try out. Thx
This is what I have internally :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01DU59PJ8/ref...
I've decided to return the broken Y-cam for a refund, but I will keep the one that currently works. Vstarcam do make an outside dome camera which also has remote pan / tilt and the preset positions like the internal ones, so I am probably going to give one of them a try (and hope the power connector is a tad more sensible!).
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01DU59PJ8/ref...
I've decided to return the broken Y-cam for a refund, but I will keep the one that currently works. Vstarcam do make an outside dome camera which also has remote pan / tilt and the preset positions like the internal ones, so I am probably going to give one of them a try (and hope the power connector is a tad more sensible!).
That does look newer - but twice the price.
If the camera is stolen then you do lose the recording - that's why I have / want outside cameras too. The internal ones are really to allow me to check whether it's genuine when my house alarm goes off - and to keep an eye on the property (and more importantly, cars) outside assuming people are not breaking into the house.
ETA : the video quality of the ones I have is very good. Probably wouldn't allow identification at 20m but much better than I expected.
If the camera is stolen then you do lose the recording - that's why I have / want outside cameras too. The internal ones are really to allow me to check whether it's genuine when my house alarm goes off - and to keep an eye on the property (and more importantly, cars) outside assuming people are not breaking into the house.
ETA : the video quality of the ones I have is very good. Probably wouldn't allow identification at 20m but much better than I expected.
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