Apple bricking iPhones that have been 3rd party repaired
Discussion
Jonesy23 said:
There is also a world of difference between losing trust on a Samsung specific security feature that doesn't affect any normal usage and bricking the entire device beyond the point of data or device recovery.
I agree (although it does affect normal usage - tripped Knox means no BYOD for work for example). The point of Knox is that it guarantees end-to-end security, Apple are claiming the replacement of the Touch ID breaks that security. I still don't see why they couldn't simply say, "You've replaced your Touch ID with a non-certified one, you can no longer use Touch ID to unlock or for Apple Pay..." etc.To brick the whole phone seems vindictive, especially with no warning that it will happen during an IOS update.
George111 said:
rscott said:
George111 said:
A new screen on an iPhone 6 is only £86.44 not £236.
https://www.apple.com/uk/support/iphone/repair/scr...
As usual, Apple do something to help and protect users and everybody moans but think about the alternative - they permit third party replacements and somebody finds a way to use the old security data to access your account, Apple really would be screwed then wouldn't they !
Would your credit card provider permit you to fix your own credit card using a third party chip ? Because that's effectively what the direct comparison is with the Apple Pay data held by the phone, it's effectively a credit card.
Admittedly there should be better communications regarding the fitting of non-authorised parts or at non-authorised repair companies, but I agree with Apple in principle.
It is £236 for a new touchid sensor. The £86 is just for screen replacement https://www.apple.com/uk/support/iphone/repair/scr...
As usual, Apple do something to help and protect users and everybody moans but think about the alternative - they permit third party replacements and somebody finds a way to use the old security data to access your account, Apple really would be screwed then wouldn't they !
Would your credit card provider permit you to fix your own credit card using a third party chip ? Because that's effectively what the direct comparison is with the Apple Pay data held by the phone, it's effectively a credit card.
Admittedly there should be better communications regarding the fitting of non-authorised parts or at non-authorised repair companies, but I agree with Apple in principle.
It's nothing like fitting a third party chip to a card anyway - who would do that when the bank will replace it foc.
Still don't see why they can't just disable the touchid support and leave the rest of the phone working.
In any case, there's no need for a new touch sensor if the screen is damaged - Apple will replace a screen without having to replace the touch sensor.
I think this is really a non-storey, some people get their phones repaired by a non-authorised source who can't pair the sensor to the phone so Apple has to disable it to protect the data . . . sounds OK to me and if some tow rag had stolen my phone then accessed all my data simply by installing his touch sensor into my phone I'd be seriously pissed off with Apple and I bet you would too ?
In the situation you mention of a stolen phone, I'd expect the phone to pop up a message that the TouchID could not be verified and request I use alternate authentication methods.
By the way, it's all very well suggesting we all use Apple for repairs, but when there is no Apple store for 60+ miles (my nearest is in Westfield Stratford or Norwich), why shouldn't I be able to use an alternative?
I suspect Apple will revise their behaviour with a future update.
Incidentally I'm no fanboy, never had an iPhone, use Android, typing this on a Macbook but admin Windows and Linux at work so I suspect I have exposure to more IT stuff than many on this thread and tbh I get a little fed up of the word fanboy being trotted out every f
king Apple thread where someone says something in favour of them that someone disagrees with - it's tiresome.
Incidentally I'm no fanboy, never had an iPhone, use Android, typing this on a Macbook but admin Windows and Linux at work so I suspect I have exposure to more IT stuff than many on this thread and tbh I get a little fed up of the word fanboy being trotted out every f
king Apple thread where someone says something in favour of them that someone disagrees with - it's tiresome.rscott said:
By the way, it's all very well suggesting we all use Apple for repairs, but when there is no Apple store for 60+ miles (my nearest is in Westfield Stratford or Norwich), why shouldn't I be able to use an alternative?
If you want Apple to repair it (or give you a quote) they will send you a little box to put it in so you can post it to them - it then comes back a few days or a week later. Simples 
Firstly, if Apple knew that a 3rd party repair would compromise their security of their system then their Security Engineers have been incredibly short sighted if they didn't think this would impact the consumer. I actually believe they did this with full corporate backing to ensure that the 3rd party repair industry is squashed.
Also, we need to defeat this idea that finger prints are secure. They are inherently insecure. You wouldn't randomly shout your PIN number as you go about your day, so what happens you leave finger prints everywhere? What happens when all 10 fingerprints have been compromised? What do you change it to then? A toe? Would you use the same password for your phone as you do for your house? Your bank account?
Also, we need to defeat this idea that finger prints are secure. They are inherently insecure. You wouldn't randomly shout your PIN number as you go about your day, so what happens you leave finger prints everywhere? What happens when all 10 fingerprints have been compromised? What do you change it to then? A toe? Would you use the same password for your phone as you do for your house? Your bank account?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I suspect Apple will revise their behaviour with a future update.
Incidentally I'm no fanboy, never had an iPhone, use Android, typing this on a Macbook but admin Windows and Linux at work so I suspect I have exposure to more IT stuff than many on this thread and tbh I get a little fed up of the word fanboy being trotted out every fking Apple thread where someone says something in favour of them that someone disagrees with - it's tiresome.
I think it's a fair term when people are completely unsympathetic to genuine owners who have had a third-party repair falling foul of this, or where it's clear that they believe Apple simply cannot err. Incidentally I'm no fanboy, never had an iPhone, use Android, typing this on a Macbook but admin Windows and Linux at work so I suspect I have exposure to more IT stuff than many on this thread and tbh I get a little fed up of the word fanboy being trotted out every f
king Apple thread where someone says something in favour of them that someone disagrees with - it's tiresome.Like you I've had exposure to plenty of stuff - use an iMac at work (by choice, don't need it for my job), MacBook Pro at home, various Windows stuff elsewhere, and have an Android phone. So no automatic allegiance to any brand. Strictly speaking I think brand allegiance is self-defeating.
Edited by Durzel on Sunday 7th February 09:52
As the resident Apple fanboy, I must stay this surprises me.
Apple would never do anything of the sort, nor has it ever done. The iPhone 7 sales will definitely reflect this.
Point in case.
Apple would never do anything of the sort, nor has it ever done. The iPhone 7 sales will definitely reflect this.
Durzel said:
Gonna sound like I'm on a crusade now..
The absolute worst thing about this in my opinion is that it will not change anything. Tomorrow it'll be yesterday's chip paper. People will buy the iPhone 7 in droves, never pausing to think about how this and other behaviours (we all know how anti-jailbreaking Apple is) restricts their own choices to do what they want with what they own.
There is a depressingly high number of people who are accepting of this kind of behaviour, worse - they champion it. It's like some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, various forums awash with people criticising anyone who takes issue with this behaviour. "You shouldn't have taken it to anywhere other than Apple to get repaired", "so what if it costs £236 for Apple to do the same job as a third party charging a fraction of this, it's a premium phone ", etc. People welcome their civil liberties being curtailed by a huge corporation, on a device they bought and paid for.
Absolutely spot no.The absolute worst thing about this in my opinion is that it will not change anything. Tomorrow it'll be yesterday's chip paper. People will buy the iPhone 7 in droves, never pausing to think about how this and other behaviours (we all know how anti-jailbreaking Apple is) restricts their own choices to do what they want with what they own.
There is a depressingly high number of people who are accepting of this kind of behaviour, worse - they champion it. It's like some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, various forums awash with people criticising anyone who takes issue with this behaviour. "You shouldn't have taken it to anywhere other than Apple to get repaired", "so what if it costs £236 for Apple to do the same job as a third party charging a fraction of this, it's a premium phone ", etc. People welcome their civil liberties being curtailed by a huge corporation, on a device they bought and paid for.
Stupeo said:
I don't think Apple are doing anything wrong with this. I've had several phones over the years and last week, I dropped one for the first time and smashed the screen. Took it to a few local repair places, all wanted £60 for iPhone 6 screen replacement where as apple only wanted £76. The only annoying thing is trying to get a damn genius bar appointment!
Point in case.
HUGE thread here if you've got a couple of hours:
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/users-facing-e...
I bought a new iPad Air 2 which has ID Touch on Christmas Eve. Went on holiday without a case. Dropped it. Screen smashed.
Apple wanted £286 for a repair. Had it done by quickmobilefix.com in 72 hours good as new for £100 less. I've probably invalidated the warranty but I'm not going to chuck £100 extra into Tim Cook's pension if I don't have to.
So far no Error Code.
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/users-facing-e...
I bought a new iPad Air 2 which has ID Touch on Christmas Eve. Went on holiday without a case. Dropped it. Screen smashed.
Apple wanted £286 for a repair. Had it done by quickmobilefix.com in 72 hours good as new for £100 less. I've probably invalidated the warranty but I'm not going to chuck £100 extra into Tim Cook's pension if I don't have to.
So far no Error Code.
Edited by audidoody on Sunday 7th February 10:32
otolith said:
I would prioritise ensuring that my phone cannot be hacked by replacing the security hardware over cheapness of repair at some backstreet phone shop. Fuss over nothing from partisan phone nerds.
Would this attitude that it's a fuss over nothing survive your £xxx phone being reduced to a paperweight? Stopping your phone being hacked is one thing but this doesn't really do that beyond making the entire thing useless and inaccessible to anyone including the owner.
The security would have been a bit crap if replacing a component could have got around it. Which it wouldn't have. So the whole argument about this being for 'security' is a bit weak anyway, and even weaker when the outcome goes well beyond just the thing refusing fingerprint unlock or access to Apple Pay which is what might have possibly been affected.
And why 'error 53' instead of a meaningful message?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/16/gummi_bear...http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/09/fake-finge...
Edited by marshalla on Sunday 7th February 11:25
This is at best annoying for a personal user of Apple phones, but it really reinforces our decision to stop using Apple kit at work.
We run around 200 smart phones, all of which were Apple since the 3GS through to the 5S, but we are about half way through switching to Android as we have found Apple utterly useless when it comes to business accounts. I suppose we aren't big enough to warrant better service, but none of our other suppliers come close to making life as difficult as Apple do. I suppose they don't want our business, but it seems strange that any company can be so confident in their product that losing a customer that purchases 200+ phones every 2 years is not a problem for them.
Quite often we have had anything up to 10 phones needing to be repaired for various reasons, and Apple would not accept a purchase order and then invoice us for the work, despite having purchased literally hundreds of phones from them on that basis, and having been through all of their rigorous credit checks, AND committing to spend £10K or over with them in the first year, which we did easily. We had even paid for the Apple partner account upgrade that would give us immediate Genius bar appointments, fat lot of use that turned out to be.
Where repairs were concerned we were told we had to pre-pay into an account to allow us to submit a purchase order, which we did. Then, when we tried to do our first repairs using this method, we were told that our nominated authorised IT person and all the users of the phones must be present, in person, and that we could not submit a PO until they had assessed the repair, despite there being sufficient in the account to cover their maximum replacement fee for all the phones needing repair.
So to get a phone repaired we would need the person 'authorised' to request the repair, plus the person to whom the phone was assigned, then they would assess the phone within 48 hours and we would have to return with the PO filled in to carry out the repair. If we wanted the repair carried out right away then we would need to turn up with a company credit card, so in our organisation that would be one of the directors needing to be present as well. At one point we were even asked to provide a copy of our bank statement to prove that we had transferred our pre-payment to them several weeks earlier as it was held by a different part of the business! Madness.
So needless to say we use third party repairers to do our repair work, who can turn around phones in 24 hours, and who will invoice us for the work. They will even pick them up and deliver them back to us, all for much less than Apple charge, and they don't use phrases like "we will reach out to you when you need support" like all the Apple 'geniuses' do.
This phone bricking malarkey for unauthorised repairs is just another way to generate revenue, It's the non-replaceable iPod battery all over again. It has absolutely nothing to do with security, there are plenty of ways Apple could mitigate the security risks, but they are so arrogant and people so much in love with their products, that they can, and will get away with this. However we simply could not run our business with such a gun to our heads.
If we hadn't already decided to dump Apple products, this would certainly tip the balance.
It's pointless complaining about it, we did and it was a waste of time, we simply were not important enough to them as a customer and they have such confidence in their product that they thought we would put up with it. And for a while we did, the phones are really very good, especially for less IT literate people like the majority of our company phone users, they are just so intuitive and nice to use. However, they were just so bad at keeping our phone fleet running that we just couldn't work with them any more.
People put up with a lot from Apple, they are like no other supplier that I know, but it seems to work for them. I wish they weren't because I like their devices very much. But sadly for me the devices are no longer that much better than the competition to make me put up with all their nonsense. We voted with our feet and my advice to people who don't like this latest move is to do the same.
We run around 200 smart phones, all of which were Apple since the 3GS through to the 5S, but we are about half way through switching to Android as we have found Apple utterly useless when it comes to business accounts. I suppose we aren't big enough to warrant better service, but none of our other suppliers come close to making life as difficult as Apple do. I suppose they don't want our business, but it seems strange that any company can be so confident in their product that losing a customer that purchases 200+ phones every 2 years is not a problem for them.
Quite often we have had anything up to 10 phones needing to be repaired for various reasons, and Apple would not accept a purchase order and then invoice us for the work, despite having purchased literally hundreds of phones from them on that basis, and having been through all of their rigorous credit checks, AND committing to spend £10K or over with them in the first year, which we did easily. We had even paid for the Apple partner account upgrade that would give us immediate Genius bar appointments, fat lot of use that turned out to be.
Where repairs were concerned we were told we had to pre-pay into an account to allow us to submit a purchase order, which we did. Then, when we tried to do our first repairs using this method, we were told that our nominated authorised IT person and all the users of the phones must be present, in person, and that we could not submit a PO until they had assessed the repair, despite there being sufficient in the account to cover their maximum replacement fee for all the phones needing repair.
So to get a phone repaired we would need the person 'authorised' to request the repair, plus the person to whom the phone was assigned, then they would assess the phone within 48 hours and we would have to return with the PO filled in to carry out the repair. If we wanted the repair carried out right away then we would need to turn up with a company credit card, so in our organisation that would be one of the directors needing to be present as well. At one point we were even asked to provide a copy of our bank statement to prove that we had transferred our pre-payment to them several weeks earlier as it was held by a different part of the business! Madness.
So needless to say we use third party repairers to do our repair work, who can turn around phones in 24 hours, and who will invoice us for the work. They will even pick them up and deliver them back to us, all for much less than Apple charge, and they don't use phrases like "we will reach out to you when you need support" like all the Apple 'geniuses' do.
This phone bricking malarkey for unauthorised repairs is just another way to generate revenue, It's the non-replaceable iPod battery all over again. It has absolutely nothing to do with security, there are plenty of ways Apple could mitigate the security risks, but they are so arrogant and people so much in love with their products, that they can, and will get away with this. However we simply could not run our business with such a gun to our heads.
If we hadn't already decided to dump Apple products, this would certainly tip the balance.
It's pointless complaining about it, we did and it was a waste of time, we simply were not important enough to them as a customer and they have such confidence in their product that they thought we would put up with it. And for a while we did, the phones are really very good, especially for less IT literate people like the majority of our company phone users, they are just so intuitive and nice to use. However, they were just so bad at keeping our phone fleet running that we just couldn't work with them any more.
People put up with a lot from Apple, they are like no other supplier that I know, but it seems to work for them. I wish they weren't because I like their devices very much. But sadly for me the devices are no longer that much better than the competition to make me put up with all their nonsense. We voted with our feet and my advice to people who don't like this latest move is to do the same.
Funk said:
rscott said:
Still don't see why they can't just disable the touchid support and leave the rest of the phone working.
That's the crux of it really. I could understand disabling Touch ID if it detects a different sensor but to brick the whole phone into an unrecoverable state? That's just malicious in my opinion.Samsung have a security protocol called Knox which trips when you root the device. It's a one-way trip as well, once activated it's permanent and irreversible. The reason is that Samsung say they can't verify the end to end security on a rooted device any more which is fair enough. The problem is that without rooting and adbocking, my tablet was almost unusable - shocking for such a powerful device hardware-wise.
What it has done is ensure I'll never buy another Samsung device in future though, it's not been a great experience.
Edited by Funk on Saturday 6th February 23:57
1.) Possible issue with warranty claims (if they wish to raise an issue as it will show in firmware) and
2.) Disable the KNOX secure container.
The rest of the phone/tablet should work fine unless it is an app that accesses the KNOX API. If the carrier (vodafone, ee etc) wants then it use this to prevent customised roms from loading.
In (probably incorrect terms
) a one time programmable bit changes from 0 to 1, this is then registered at boot time. funkyrobot said:
I started a thread about Apple a while ago because I simply could not understand why people love and champion their products. The fanboys came out in force 
To me, Apple are a pile of arse. I cannot stand the way they try to trap you in their eco system and I find the iTunes concept utterly bizarre. They are quite a controlling company and think that it they make something shiny, it's worth a lot of money and is great.
Each to their own of course and if people want to spend money on Apple, then so be it. But this news is quite bad and bricking the whole unit is ridiculous. As others have said above, rendering a device useless and then saying it is because of security is an absolute farce. If a security option has been circumvented, just disable it.
Who am I to say anything though. People keep throwing money at Apple and some people even consider their device a fashion accessory. Sad fkers.
It's only the same as BMW owners, I cannot understand why people love and champion their products. To me, Apple are a pile of arse. I cannot stand the way they try to trap you in their eco system and I find the iTunes concept utterly bizarre. They are quite a controlling company and think that it they make something shiny, it's worth a lot of money and is great.
Each to their own of course and if people want to spend money on Apple, then so be it. But this news is quite bad and bricking the whole unit is ridiculous. As others have said above, rendering a device useless and then saying it is because of security is an absolute farce. If a security option has been circumvented, just disable it.
Who am I to say anything though. People keep throwing money at Apple and some people even consider their device a fashion accessory. Sad f
kers. People like different things, I like apple products they work for me, I'm a person who goes into a restaurant and prefers a smaller menu, to me android is a big menu with far too much choice.
Stupeo said:
damn genius bar appointment!
This is the thing I dislike about Apple. I don't really like or dislike the company (it's another consumer electronics brand to me - not something to love or hate)But walking into an Apple shop to be told I couldn't just ask questions or buy a MacBook without an appointment is unacceptable to me.
I was so staggered by the arrogance of that approach (as if the person with a red polo shirt and an iPad is a GP or something) that I was put off using Apple shops. If I buy any more Apple products, it'll be from another retailer like Currys or wherever sells it.
wsurfa said:
Funk said:
rscott said:
Still don't see why they can't just disable the touchid support and leave the rest of the phone working.
That's the crux of it really. I could understand disabling Touch ID if it detects a different sensor but to brick the whole phone into an unrecoverable state? That's just malicious in my opinion.Samsung have a security protocol called Knox which trips when you root the device. It's a one-way trip as well, once activated it's permanent and irreversible. The reason is that Samsung say they can't verify the end to end security on a rooted device any more which is fair enough. The problem is that without rooting and adbocking, my tablet was almost unusable - shocking for such a powerful device hardware-wise.
What it has done is ensure I'll never buy another Samsung device in future though, it's not been a great experience.
Edited by Funk on Saturday 6th February 23:57
1.) Possible issue with warranty claims (if they wish to raise an issue as it will show in firmware) and
2.) Disable the KNOX secure container.
The rest of the phone/tablet should work fine unless it is an app that accesses the KNOX API. If the carrier (vodafone, ee etc) wants then it use this to prevent customised roms from loading.
In (probably incorrect terms
) a one time programmable bit changes from 0 to 1, this is then registered at boot time. Sounds like the iPhone backlash has begun - on this forum at least! Apple recently predicted that iPhone sales are likely to fall for the first time - at this rate I reckon they might have accelerated that statement if they don't offer some sort of solution to those bricked phones.
As someone who's mainly interested in the Apple computer side of things rather than phones, it's easy to forget how incredibly important the iPhone product range has become.
As someone who's mainly interested in the Apple computer side of things rather than phones, it's easy to forget how incredibly important the iPhone product range has become.
rscott said:
wsurfa said:
Funk said:
rscott said:
Still don't see why they can't just disable the touchid support and leave the rest of the phone working.
That's the crux of it really. I could understand disabling Touch ID if it detects a different sensor but to brick the whole phone into an unrecoverable state? That's just malicious in my opinion.Samsung have a security protocol called Knox which trips when you root the device. It's a one-way trip as well, once activated it's permanent and irreversible. The reason is that Samsung say they can't verify the end to end security on a rooted device any more which is fair enough. The problem is that without rooting and adbocking, my tablet was almost unusable - shocking for such a powerful device hardware-wise.
What it has done is ensure I'll never buy another Samsung device in future though, it's not been a great experience.
Edited by Funk on Saturday 6th February 23:57
1.) Possible issue with warranty claims (if they wish to raise an issue as it will show in firmware) and
2.) Disable the KNOX secure container.
The rest of the phone/tablet should work fine unless it is an app that accesses the KNOX API. If the carrier (vodafone, ee etc) wants then it use this to prevent customised roms from loading.
In (probably incorrect terms
) a one time programmable bit changes from 0 to 1, this is then registered at boot time. The other was that Samsung's Touchwiz and bloatware slows the tablet down so horrendously it's almost unusable, especially when it's downloading oodles of ads as well.
I have a Nexus 7 tablet as well and that's been fantastic, I pick it up in preference to the Tab S 8.4 now. Getting 6.0 on the N7 also influenced my choice to go with the Nexus 6P when my phone came round for an upgrade.
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