Macbook Pro (2016)
Discussion
ZesPak said:
That seems to be a risk, but even as it is today Apple as we know it would cease to exist if the iPhone sales stop. The share is just too big.
...
Maybe it could get back to being the Apple we knew....Innovative, high quality, top end priced computing gear with a phone sideline....it might not feel the need to sit on billions of dollars....
Murph7355 said:
ZesPak said:
That seems to be a risk, but even as it is today Apple as we know it would cease to exist if the iPhone sales stop. The share is just too big.
...
Maybe it could get back to being the Apple we knew....Innovative, high quality, top end priced computing gear with a phone sideline....it might not feel the need to sit on billions of dollars....
randlemarcus said:
Would that be the nearly bankrupt one that was 25% owned by Microsoft? Or the one a bit later where the profitable phone thingy was already outshining the computer sales? Its odd, as my perception is that Macs have a much greater market share than the old days, but do the numbers back that up, or has the corporate blackpoloneck segment declined while the consumer users have gone up?
I don't have the numbers, but amongst our customers the decline of the Pro market has been going on for a while. The 1st gen Mac Pro just took too long to replace, this gen is following suit. Our customers who need the raw processing power just can't justify it and have switched long ago. But, as you say, it feels as if Apple has gained a lot of market share amongst consumers, which is odd as they didn't used to be the people to buy £1000 laptops. That imho is a good thing, just look at the sheer number of great premium laptops these days.
As mentioned before, 6 or more years ago if you wanted a compact, reasonably powerful premium laptop, it was slim pickings. Nowadays it seems like every manufacturer makes some.
Edited by ZesPak on Saturday 26th November 08:04
Murph7355 said:
eps said:
Just so we're clear was that a 'new' XPS13 or not a 'new' XPS13 - you said 50% I asked you to prove it by providing links to both - then we can all see a direct comparison, you're still avoiding proving it, but never mind!
It was a new one. 7th gen, Core i7. I bought it 2 weeks ago. I really couldn't care less whether you believe me or not. John Lewis price matched PC World (edited to add - who at the time had 10% off).
You can go and get the Apple price on their website. A friend runs an Apple dealer and there is little to no room to pay anything other than the site price. Perhaps 5%-10% tops.
Regardless, ball park the Dells are about half the price. Even if you stuck religiously to the rrp because you do not wish to get the price down, like for like on the basis noted above the Dell is 56% the price of the Apple.
Over 15yrs or so I've had 4 mac laptops. 2 iMacs. 4 Mac Minis (3 still in use). We have a 13" MBA still in use (do you need the custard test on that too?). I am/was an Apple fan. But that level of price disparity is simply not justifiable on rational grounds.
Edited by Murph7355 on Thursday 24th November 23:52
Windows PCs are incredibly easy to upgrade.
You don't have to buy the highest spec XPS, you can just get the ram/SSD youself for way cheaper and spec the laptop with barely any HD capacity or Ram, saving yourself a bucketload, for what will take under 5 mins of your time to put in.
do that with a macbook pro?
Efbe said:
Murph, and others. You're numbers are wrong, because of the elephant in the room.
Windows PCs are incredibly easy to upgrade.
You don't have to buy the highest spec XPS, you can just get the ram/SSD youself for way cheaper and spec the laptop with barely any HD capacity or Ram, saving yourself a bucketload, for what will take under 5 mins of your time to put in.
do that with a macbook pro?
Most of the comparable models are sealed just like a MacBook Pro, soldered RAM etc.Windows PCs are incredibly easy to upgrade.
You don't have to buy the highest spec XPS, you can just get the ram/SSD youself for way cheaper and spec the laptop with barely any HD capacity or Ram, saving yourself a bucketload, for what will take under 5 mins of your time to put in.
do that with a macbook pro?
Efbe said:
Murph, and others. You're numbers are wrong, because of the elephant in the room.
Windows PCs are incredibly easy to upgrade.
You don't have to buy the highest spec XPS, you can just get the ram/SSD youself for way cheaper and spec the laptop with barely any HD capacity or Ram, saving yourself a bucketload, for what will take under 5 mins of your time to put in.
do that with a macbook pro?
No, it isn't wrong to compare the two as it ensures you're comparing apples with Apples, which is why both eps and I specified we were comparing the QHD touchscreen with the Touchbar Apple computer. Windows PCs are incredibly easy to upgrade.
You don't have to buy the highest spec XPS, you can just get the ram/SSD youself for way cheaper and spec the laptop with barely any HD capacity or Ram, saving yourself a bucketload, for what will take under 5 mins of your time to put in.
do that with a macbook pro?
The laptop being user serviceable is a very valid concern for a lot of people, but it is not a fair to compare a user upgraded Windows based laptop with a standard Apple one, not least because one has a warranty and one doesn't.
leglessAlex said:
The laptop being user serviceable is a very valid concern for a lot of people, but it is not a fair to compare a user upgraded Windows based laptop with a standard Apple one, not least because one has a warranty and one doesn't.
What are you talking about? Ugrading storage or memory etc on a laptop has no effect on warranty. Efbe said:
Murph, and others. You're numbers are wrong, because of the elephant in the room.
Windows PCs are incredibly easy to upgrade.
You don't have to buy the highest spec XPS, you can just get the ram/SSD youself for way cheaper and spec the laptop with barely any HD capacity or Ram, saving yourself a bucketload, for what will take under 5 mins of your time to put in.
Right and wrong Windows PCs are incredibly easy to upgrade.
You don't have to buy the highest spec XPS, you can just get the ram/SSD youself for way cheaper and spec the laptop with barely any HD capacity or Ram, saving yourself a bucketload, for what will take under 5 mins of your time to put in.
XPS ram is soldered and not upgradeable. SSD, however, is. Dell provide a full service manual(!) http://downloads.dell.com/Manuals/all-products/esu...
Also, it seems you can't order models with large ram but small SSD...
iFixit give the 13" XPS 7/10 for Repairability. Latest 13" Macbook Pro scores 2/10 and 15" 1/10.
But with Apple's aftercare being so good, and easy, why would it need to be serviceable? Main issue with the new ones is once out of warranty if the logic board goes, or the SSD or the RAM then it's all gotta be changed.
I imagine they did the research and found that the people actually buying the machines new didn't think about upgrading them themselves, so as part of space saving they removed the option. They aren't thinking about the 2nd or 3rd owner who might want to upgrade the RAM or SSD later on, or even the person who's owned in 5 years, they'd much rather have them buy a new one. It's a business. I don't even think about the fact I could upgrade my SSD, I could but I don't see the point, 512Gb is enough working space for me, photography is shifted to a NAS, video is put on scratch drives anyway.
I imagine they did the research and found that the people actually buying the machines new didn't think about upgrading them themselves, so as part of space saving they removed the option. They aren't thinking about the 2nd or 3rd owner who might want to upgrade the RAM or SSD later on, or even the person who's owned in 5 years, they'd much rather have them buy a new one. It's a business. I don't even think about the fact I could upgrade my SSD, I could but I don't see the point, 512Gb is enough working space for me, photography is shifted to a NAS, video is put on scratch drives anyway.
ZesPak said:
I don't have the numbers, but amongst our customers the decline of the Pro market has been going on for a while. The 1st gen Mac Pro just took too long to replace, this gen is following suit. Our customers who need the raw processing power just can't justify it and have switched long ago.
But, as you say, it feels as if Apple has gained a lot of market share amongst consumers, which is odd as they didn't used to be the people to buy £1000 laptops. That imho is a good thing, just look at the sheer number of great premium laptops these days.
As mentioned before, 6 or more years ago if you wanted a compact, reasonably powerful premium laptop, it was slim pickings. Nowadays it seems like every manufacturer makes some.
Could that be that the 'pro' suffix is turning into a marketing tool and the performance gap between the non 'pro' and air models is getting smaller?But, as you say, it feels as if Apple has gained a lot of market share amongst consumers, which is odd as they didn't used to be the people to buy £1000 laptops. That imho is a good thing, just look at the sheer number of great premium laptops these days.
As mentioned before, 6 or more years ago if you wanted a compact, reasonably powerful premium laptop, it was slim pickings. Nowadays it seems like every manufacturer makes some.
Edited by ZesPak on Saturday 26th November 08:04
As for market share, I suspect there will still be a demand from casual consumers who like the design of a MacBook and like to be seen with one, but who don't need high end performance. Apple is a respected and 'cool' brand is a way that Dell, for instance, isn't. It's not at all a scientific survey, but if you walk around London, the window seats in coffee shops are dominated by Apple laptop users!
And yes, the two hidden ones were Macs as well!
Digitalize said:
But with Apple's aftercare being so good, and easy, why would it need to be serviceable? Main issue with the new ones is once out of warranty if the logic board goes, or the SSD or the RAM then it's all gotta be changed.
I imagine they did the research ...
I imagine they did the research and found they'd make more money selling someone a whole new machine rather than an upgrade. I imagine they did the research ...
I've found Apple's aftercare poor. Brand new MPB 2012 failed terminally (SSD death) within 2 weeks of purchase. Apple wanted me to bring it in to a store (around 2 hours drive away...), where they would then have diagnosed that it needed sending away for repair, and they couldn't tell me how long that might take.
Luckily I'd bought it from Amazon who amazingly shipped a new MPB with next-day delivery before I'd even returned the old one. Dell's on-site support has been excellent when I've needed it.
RobDickinson said:
yeah thats the reason, no one ever really wants to upgrade. No one would want 32gb or a bigger SSD or even to be able to save their data from a dead motherboard.
f
k sake the reality distortion field is fully active.
Maybe I'm on the side of Apple, but to me it just seems like some people are actively intent on not liking Apple or their decisions.f
k sake the reality distortion field is fully active. They also have a tool to migrate the data off a dead logic board - http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/25/apple-ssd-data...
Digitalize said:
RobDickinson said:
yeah thats the reason, no one ever really wants to upgrade. No one would want 32gb or a bigger SSD or even to be able to save their data from a dead motherboard.
fk sake the reality distortion field is fully active.
Maybe I'm on the side of Apple, but to me it just seems like some people are actively intent on not liking Apple or their decisions.f
k sake the reality distortion field is fully active. They also have a tool to migrate the data off a dead logic board - http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/25/apple-ssd-data...
The most likely explanation IMHO for the current Pro lineup is that the design has been in place for some time, but the components haven't come on stream in the expected timeframe. I think it'll make much more sense in 18-24 months time. The Pro lineup will probably have beefier specs and there will be a more obvious Air substitute to slot in below. USB-C will be more widely used and much of the current disquiet will be forgotten about.
The biggest clue is the pricing. I think they have decided to take the hit from reduced sales over the next year rather than sell cheaper because they want the Pro range to remain at the high end of their offering. Expect a larger MacBook (Air) range to come in below and the Pro's to better justify their price in a year or so time.
For what it's worth I've had excellent support from Apple over the last 2 years. Granted it's been AppleCare related, but damn good over the phone and with machines being couriered away and back again.
The biggest clue is the pricing. I think they have decided to take the hit from reduced sales over the next year rather than sell cheaper because they want the Pro range to remain at the high end of their offering. Expect a larger MacBook (Air) range to come in below and the Pro's to better justify their price in a year or so time.
For what it's worth I've had excellent support from Apple over the last 2 years. Granted it's been AppleCare related, but damn good over the phone and with machines being couriered away and back again.
RobDickinson said:
leglessAlex said:
The laptop being user serviceable is a very valid concern for a lot of people, but it is not a fair to compare a user upgraded Windows based laptop with a standard Apple one, not least because one has a warranty and one doesn't.
What are you talking about? Ugrading storage or memory etc on a laptop has no effect on warranty. leglessAlex said:
This page seems to suggest otherwise for some manufacturers and it was written around this time last year so reasonably recent. Maybe I'm being cynical but even if the manufacturer 'allows' those basic modifications it seems like an easy way of avoiding an expensive repair for them should something break.
Well given microsoft hardware is all fixed like apple I'm not surprised they dont allow upgrades.. As for the rest just checking one, Samsung, from that chart..
"Upgrading the memory does not void the manufacturer's warranty."
http://www.samsung.com/ph/support/skp/faq/416629
So I'd call it bulls
t. RobDickinson said:
leglessAlex said:
This page seems to suggest otherwise for some manufacturers and it was written around this time last year so reasonably recent. Maybe I'm being cynical but even if the manufacturer 'allows' those basic modifications it seems like an easy way of avoiding an expensive repair for them should something break.
Well given microsoft hardware is all fixed like apple I'm not surprised they dont allow upgrades.. As for the rest just checking one, Samsung, from that chart..
"Upgrading the memory does not void the manufacturer's warranty."
http://www.samsung.com/ph/support/skp/faq/416629
So I'd call it bulls
t. t though is it?Samsung said:
Important: Upgrading the memory on the X360 or 9 Series Laptops voids the warranty, because you must open the notebook to access the memory.
So, to go back to the original point, I don't think it's reasonable to compare a user modified laptop to a standard one and I do think warranty has something to do with that (depending on the laptop in question).It's all a bit irrelevant anyway isn't it? Whether a MacBook Pro is more expensive by 20% or 50%, it's clear that if you are going to purchase a new Apple 'Pro' laptop then price probably isn't a concern.
I'll happily admit that I'm surprised that so many manufacturers allow you to upgrade their products while keeping the warranty intact, but I'm somewhat skeptical still that they wouldn't use it as an excuse to not fix it if it was a major/expensive problem. Maybe I'm just too used to Apple products as that's certainly what they do in my experience.
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