What is Germany doing right that we're not? And why?

What is Germany doing right that we're not? And why?

Author
Discussion

oyster

Original Poster:

12,577 posts

247 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Germany has managed, yet again, to produce a government surplus. It has also managed to lead the G7 in 2016 GDP growth.
Therefore, Germany must be a capitalist's dream.

BUT
So a generous public sector, an open immigration policy (including a million refugees recently), high union representation in corporates.
Therefore, Germany must be a socialist's dream.

paulrockliffe

15,639 posts

226 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Tied it's currency to a basket-case economy to artificially devalue it while selling goods to the basket-case. Effectively sucking wealth out of most of the rest of the Eurozone. Argued against the fiscal integration that would allow this to be balanced out. Sorted.

FN2TypeR

7,091 posts

92 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
Tied it's currency to a basket-case economy to artificially devalue it while selling goods to the basket-case. Effectively sucking wealth out of most of the rest of the Eurozone. Argued against the fiscal integration that would allow this to be balanced out. Sorted.
Ah the old vampire squid economics eh? I like it.

Otispunkmeyer

12,557 posts

154 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
oyster said:
Germany has managed, yet again, to produce a government surplus. It has also managed to lead the G7 in 2016 GDP growth.
Therefore, Germany must be a capitalist's dream.

BUT
So a generous public sector, an open immigration policy (including a million refugees recently), high union representation in corporates.
Therefore, Germany must be a socialist's dream.
A surplus you say? Will the EU be coming knocking asking them to cough up for doing better than expected? Like they did to us? (and call me davey-boy folded like a cheap suit).

Guvernator

13,105 posts

164 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that withthe stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin

loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
Tied it's currency to a basket-case economy to artificially devalue it while selling goods to the basket-case. Effectively sucking wealth out of most of the rest of the Eurozone. Argued against the fiscal integration that would allow this to be balanced out. Sorted.
Of course they haven't actually got the money from selling goods to the basket case, so it could all yet turn out to be a false dawn...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARGET2

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
And it's not just a small surplus, it's the biggest surplus since 1990.

"Germany's budget surplus hit a post-reunification high of nearly 24bn euros (£20bn) in 2016 boosted by a higher tax take and increased employment."

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/am...

And their trade surplus is also at an all time high.

"Germany's trade surplus hit an all time high last year as the country continued to export significantly more than it imported."

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/am...

Mama Merkel is obviously doing something right.



markcoznottz

7,155 posts

223 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Halb said:
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that withthe stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin
Indeed. And we got more Marshall aid than them, and decided to build a welfare state.

Hayek

8,969 posts

207 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Can't remember the exact details but following the war we had to repay loans, they got a far better deal and/or loans written off.

Also the German government got destroyed during the war, we expanded ours.

Edit: Basically agree with the above few posts.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
markcoznottz said:
Halb said:
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that withthe stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin
Indeed. And we got more Marshall aid than them, and decided to build a welfare state.
ANd nuclear weapons.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Halb said:
markcoznottz said:
Halb said:
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that withthe stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin
Indeed. And we got more Marshall aid than them, and decided to build a welfare state.
ANd nuclear weapons.
The Germans have an absurdly generous welfare state. You get 60% of net salary as unemployment benefit for a year.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Zod said:
Halb said:
markcoznottz said:
Halb said:
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that withthe stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin
Indeed. And we got more Marshall aid than them, and decided to build a welfare state.
ANd nuclear weapons.
The Germans have an absurdly generous welfare state. You get 60% of net salary as unemployment benefit for a year.
That is nice and generous.

Guvernator

13,105 posts

164 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
So it was better to lose two wars then win? That doesn't sound right at all does it?

Edited by Guvernator on Thursday 23 February 16:35

oyster

Original Poster:

12,577 posts

247 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Halb said:
Zod said:
Halb said:
markcoznottz said:
Halb said:
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that withthe stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin
Indeed. And we got more Marshall aid than them, and decided to build a welfare state.
ANd nuclear weapons.
The Germans have an absurdly generous welfare state. You get 60% of net salary as unemployment benefit for a year.
That is nice and generous.
This is my original question.
They have a generous welfare state, they have a generous health service. They have big government.

They also have a very productive economy which generates lots of tax.


The only difference I can imagine exists is an inability of Britain to capture the right level (and type) of tax.

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
The article below from 2015 states that they've only recently started to balance their books.


Telegraph said:
Angela Merkel's government achieves 'schwarze Null' a year early thanks to strong tax revenues and rock-bottom interest rates

Germany has balanced its budget for the first time in more than 40 years, and pressed eurozone partners to follow its austere example rather than try to stimulate their stagnant economies with borrowing or central bank money-printing.

Berlin had aimed to achieve the so-called "schwarze Null" (zero deficit) this year, but strong tax revenues and lower debt service costs due to rock-bottom interest rates helped it meet the goal a year early in 2014, the finance ministry said.

It is the first time Germany has balanced its budget since 1969.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11343836/Germany-balances-budget-for-first-time-in-more-than-40-years.html

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
So it was better to loose two wars then win? That doesn't sound right at all does it?
I'm not sure really, depends on your view point. Is winning important? By losing the Second World War, the Germans were rid of a vile establishment (the west bit that is), and were given lots of cash and support to set themselves up very nicely, and turn their existence around from aggressive militarism to something much more human. The sorry lot in the East had to go on and endure pretty rubbish times though.
The Brits still had to pretend they were a big deal, with trying to maintain a grip on empire and their own brand of militarism.

Guvernator

13,105 posts

164 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
I think the big difference is they spent the years since World War 2 building up their manufacturing and export economies rather than systematically dismantling them or shipping them all overseas like the UK has done. We essentially don't make anything anymore while they make and sell cars plus lots of other stuff to most of the world.

Exporting goods are one of the best ways for a countries economy to make money.

eyebeebe

2,962 posts

232 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Halb said:
That is nice and generous.
Switzerland is 70% (or 80% with kids) of gross salary for 400 working days. All paid for by an insurance scheme which costs 2.2% of gross salary, split equally between employee and employer. Works as a true safety net, but by god they make you work for the money - minimum number of job applications per week, mandatory courses etc. It really is on your interest to get another job, and social security that starts after the 400 days is pretty grim. I think it's a very well designed system.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
oyster said:
Halb said:
Zod said:
Halb said:
markcoznottz said:
Halb said:
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that withthe stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin
Indeed. And we got more Marshall aid than them, and decided to build a welfare state.
ANd nuclear weapons.
The Germans have an absurdly generous welfare state. You get 60% of net salary as unemployment benefit for a year.
That is nice and generous.
This is my original question.
They have a generous welfare state, they have a generous health service. They have big government.

They also have a very productive economy which generates lots of tax.


The only difference I can imagine exists is an inability of Britain to capture the right level (and type) of tax.
I think it comes back down to the 'profit from any margin' mindprint. Buy a business to gut it and make a profit. Look at sorts like Phil Green and his ilk, greed beyond fantasy. It's a culture (sub or main) that seems to be what the UK/USA is all aboutthese days, don't make anything, sell all the good stuff for a fast cheap buck, with no idea on what makes a culture thrive for the masses, making something, taking pride in making quality, customer loyalty, it's just shareholder profit profit profit. I think you can see it it in everything fro trains to chocolate.