Downloading to be made illegal?
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7240234.stm
They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
buggalugs said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7240234.stm
They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
Remember, home taping is killing the music industry.. They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
I wonder how 'they' can detect a so called 'illegal download' especially with torrents.
buggalugs said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7240234.stm
They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
Downloading, receiving, buying and distributing pirated material has always been illegal be it mp3, audio cassetter or vhs tapes. The fact that you could easily get away with it didn't ever make it legal. The government aren't supporting a business model, they are trying to stop theft.They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
JustinP1 said:
"Business model"!?
Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
Dod eat dog, evolve or die.Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
buggalugs said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7240234.stm
They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
Support an industry "Business model"!?They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
Silverbullet767 said:
JustinP1 said:
"Business model"!?
Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
Dod eat dog, evolve or die.Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
JustinP1 said:
Silverbullet767 said:
JustinP1 said:
"Business model"!?
Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
Dod eat dog, evolve or die.Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
Silverbullet767 said:
JustinP1 said:
Silverbullet767 said:
JustinP1 said:
"Business model"!?
Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
Dod eat dog, evolve or die.Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
Problem with this is there's already been many cases of people receiving complaints for downloading things like OpenOffice - which is NOT illegal, or mp3's that aren't protected by copyright.
What rights of appeal will a customer have to an ISP wanting to shut down their connection? I'll give you a clue. It's a number less than or equal to 0.
So, this is going to turn into another way for ISPs to get rid of customers who they no longer want (high usage) whether they're doing anything wrong or not.
No, there's easy-enough ways to see who is sharing massive amounts of data (ermm...a quick look on Pirate Bay etc). Continue to go after people providing that level of data, not "home tapers".
"Home Taping is Killing Music" - is it
...shit music, on heavily restricted media, that doesn't allow me to listen to it where and when I want to, and degrades (badly) over time is killing music
What rights of appeal will a customer have to an ISP wanting to shut down their connection? I'll give you a clue. It's a number less than or equal to 0.
So, this is going to turn into another way for ISPs to get rid of customers who they no longer want (high usage) whether they're doing anything wrong or not.
No, there's easy-enough ways to see who is sharing massive amounts of data (ermm...a quick look on Pirate Bay etc). Continue to go after people providing that level of data, not "home tapers".
"Home Taping is Killing Music" - is it
...shit music, on heavily restricted media, that doesn't allow me to listen to it where and when I want to, and degrades (badly) over time is killing musictigger1 said:
Problem with this is there's already been many cases of people receiving complaints for downloading things like OpenOffice - which is NOT illegal, or mp3's that aren't protected by copyright.
What rights of appeal will a customer have to an ISP wanting to shut down their connection? I'll give you a clue. It's a number less than or equal to 0.
So, this is going to turn into another way for ISPs to get rid of customers who they no longer want (high usage) whether they're doing anything wrong or not.
No, there's easy-enough ways to see who is sharing massive amounts of data (ermm...a quick look on Pirate Bay etc). Continue to go after people providing that level of data, not "home tapers".
"Home Taping is Killing Music" - is it...shit music, on heavily restricted media, that doesn't allow me to listen to it where and when I want to, and degrades (badly) over time is killing music
I would have thought that any kind of system like this would go after the big downloaders first. I would also have thought each of the record lablels/publishers would employ someone to inform the ISPs of offending files that they were the copyright holder of, or employ an outside agency to do this. What rights of appeal will a customer have to an ISP wanting to shut down their connection? I'll give you a clue. It's a number less than or equal to 0.
So, this is going to turn into another way for ISPs to get rid of customers who they no longer want (high usage) whether they're doing anything wrong or not.
No, there's easy-enough ways to see who is sharing massive amounts of data (ermm...a quick look on Pirate Bay etc). Continue to go after people providing that level of data, not "home tapers".
"Home Taping is Killing Music" - is it
...shit music, on heavily restricted media, that doesn't allow me to listen to it where and when I want to, and degrades (badly) over time is killing musicThat system already works well for artists who don't want their tracks/videos distributed through the net. It is costly, yes, but the other option is to quickly see the industry reduced to music created in peoples bedrooms as the bigger record labels cannot survive.
dern said:
Downloading, receiving, buying and distributing pirated material has always been illegal be it mp3, audio cassetter or vhs tapes. The fact that you could easily get away with it didn't ever make it legal. The government aren't supporting a business model, they are trying to stop copyright infringement.
EFAAs always the "millions" in lost revenue argument is used to support over zealous measures that inhibit all our freedoms - does anyone actually believe that people would purchase the material they have downloaded without permission of the copyright holder?
Jinx said:
dern said:
As always the argument that our freedom is being inhibited is used to make petty theft seem somehow acceptable.
Copyright infringement please. Nothing has been removed from the possession of anyone. JustinP1 said:
buggalugs said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7240234.stm
They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
Support an industry "Business model"!?They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
We're not talking about some poor humble shopkeeper having his stock stolen.
Jinx said:
As always the "millions" in lost revenue argument is used to support over zealous measures that inhibit all our freedoms - does anyone actually believe that people would purchase the material they have downloaded without permission of the copyright holder?
It works both ways though, doesn't it? I've got loads of CDs that I've bought because they sounded promising, then discovered I only actually liked one or two tracks on them. With "illegal" downloading, it's possible to get albums, have a listen and then decide whether or not to buy the CD. If I don't like it, I delete it. If I like it, I buy it. But what they propose will stop all that. So personally, I'll stop buying CDs (got too many of the things anyway
). Maybe I won't be the only one.As someone else noted above - maybe if the record companies started promoting decent music, they'd sell more. Rap, Pop Idol and music for the hard of thinking - where's the fun in that??
Edited by SGirl on Tuesday 12th February 11:07
Whilst I am dead against stealing copyrighted material and thereby denying the authors their legitimate royalties and am FOR "fair use". At the moment the digital rights management schemes being put in place do not allow fair use of fairly purchased digital material.
For example: if I want to rip the DVD I bought and play it on my Archos (or similar) on the train in the morning? Not allowed. Fair use? In my view. And SlySoft will help me do it should I be foolish enough to break the law - which I wouldn't, of course.
I buy a CD - that I can rip. Is it legal? Dodgy. And yet my media center is designed to play MP3s I made of music I bought and paid for. Should that be illegal? No. Fair use.
If I download an MP3 it may or may not play on my device. And if I buy a new device and dump the old one it's extremely unlikely to play on my new one. Should that be the case? No.
I have NO PROBLEM with downloads being "marked" as "for me". I have little problem being taken to task if they find the files all over the net with my name on it. But I should jolly well be allowed to use my bought and paid for music, TV, and DVD films how I like, when I like. I paid to be allowed to use 'em. That right is mine.
If they want to sell me some DRM'd crap that I can watch for a while and then have to delete - well I might just buy it - but I don't expect to pay full price for it...because the use I can have of it is so much less.
DRM just isn't right yet. So in the meantime? I try my best to encourage it as little as possible by buying as little as possible DRM'd material.
For example: if I want to rip the DVD I bought and play it on my Archos (or similar) on the train in the morning? Not allowed. Fair use? In my view. And SlySoft will help me do it should I be foolish enough to break the law - which I wouldn't, of course.
I buy a CD - that I can rip. Is it legal? Dodgy. And yet my media center is designed to play MP3s I made of music I bought and paid for. Should that be illegal? No. Fair use.
If I download an MP3 it may or may not play on my device. And if I buy a new device and dump the old one it's extremely unlikely to play on my new one. Should that be the case? No.
I have NO PROBLEM with downloads being "marked" as "for me". I have little problem being taken to task if they find the files all over the net with my name on it. But I should jolly well be allowed to use my bought and paid for music, TV, and DVD films how I like, when I like. I paid to be allowed to use 'em. That right is mine.
If they want to sell me some DRM'd crap that I can watch for a while and then have to delete - well I might just buy it - but I don't expect to pay full price for it...because the use I can have of it is so much less.
DRM just isn't right yet. So in the meantime? I try my best to encourage it as little as possible by buying as little as possible DRM'd material.
buggalugs said:
JustinP1 said:
buggalugs said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7240234.stm
They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
Support an industry "Business model"!?They're talking about a law to obligate ISP's to terminate your contract if you do an 'illegal download' whatever one of those is.
Personaly I'm not sure that it's the governments job to support an industry's business model but I guess they have deep pockets, and took a lot of politicians out to lunch or something.
They bleated on that cassette tapes would kill the industry, and VHS FFS. Nobody banned those did they? And the world did not end.... and we all enjoyed the use of these things for a very long time. How is this any different?
Looking at it bluntly its theft, and the industry is asking the government for legislative support.
Look at it this way: Lets say for the sake of argument you work hard all week making a commodity - food, plants, beer, whatever. You sell some and you do OK, however recently you have not been doing so well, in fact you don't have much money to do it any more. You find that in the night, those items you were spending your own money to produce were being stolen, blatantly. As much as you can try you can't stop the thieves though. You are running close to the breadline and often losing money and working for nothing, and you don't know how long you can last...
In that situation would you be asking the government to give the authorities 'teeth' to protect *your* business model? Or is that example fine by you?
We're not talking about some poor humble shopkeeper having his stock stolen.
OK, so if you dont steal a physical item, then its not stealing? And items that do not have weight in your had are 'virtual' and irrelevant?
Consider my previous analogy, where it was *your* work that was being stolen. This time instead of your cakes, trees, or beer that you have worked hard to produce, you work in IT from home and the 'potential customer' lists that you spent your day working on and selling to business were copied from under your nose, and given out to the companies for free?
Is that right, or is it stealing?
Or is it technologies fault, and just a matter of evolution, as the burglars now have jamming devices which mean they can sneak into your house at night, and take your work without your alarm going off...
So that would be your fault for not keeping up with the burglars? Or would you ask the government for help?
SGirl said:
Jinx said:
As always the "millions" in lost revenue argument is used to support over zealous measures that inhibit all our freedoms - does anyone actually believe that people would purchase the material they have downloaded without permission of the copyright holder?
It works both ways though, doesn't it? I've got loads of CDs that I've bought because they sounded promising, then discovered I only actually liked one or two tracks on them. With "illegal" downloading, it's possible to get albums, have a listen and then decide whether or not to buy the CD. If I don't like it, I delete it. If I like it, I buy it. But what they propose will stop all that. So personally, I'll stop buying CDs (got too many of the things anyway
). Maybe I won't be the only one.As someone else noted above - maybe if the record companies started promoting decent music, they'd sell more. Rap, Pop Idol and music for the hard of thinking - where's the fun in that??
Edited by SGirl on Tuesday 12th February 11:07
Whilst I went the 'independant' way into the music industry after uni, my good friend went to work for a London based major label. They have done focus groups of kids and teenagers to find out how much they think music is 'worth' and how much they would pay for a download.
The astonishing - but not surprising findings of the research is that many young people have *never* purchased a piece of music, either CD or download. So when they are asked how much they would pay for an MP3 download they say 'sweet FA' I can just download for free anyway.
Of course, if you don't like rap or music made in someones bedroom, I wouldnt stop buying CDs or paying for downloads. This is the only income stream for not only the artist, but also affect the budgets of the record labels. The label my mate works for is cutting 40% of its staff - and its a major, major player. As well as the record labels, less money means the good, top quality studios can't run any more. The Townhouse in London closed just last week. As well as that the people that work in those studios and the freelancers don't have a job.
Put simply, the loss in income is not just cutting a load of 'fat cats' dividends, it is seriously affecting the number of new artists taken on, and also how much can be spent in the quality in production of new music.
I don't think that is good for anyone who enjoys music.
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