Huge mistake Nokia
Discussion
Pr1964 said:
What ever you think is fine
more of my waffle....
BB have made the bold 9700 9780 9900 etc etc etc a normal line of product development one improvement after another a normal product development strategy.
And BB sell all their products and they are available for upto a year or longer after they first come to the market
So why doesn’t Nokia do the same ???
It’s not about a Phone for ME it’s about Nokia’s weird business strategy …..
Totally Odd it make zero sense……
more of my waffle....
BB have made the bold 9700 9780 9900 etc etc etc a normal line of product development one improvement after another a normal product development strategy.
And BB sell all their products and they are available for upto a year or longer after they first come to the market
So why doesn’t Nokia do the same ???
It’s not about a Phone for ME it’s about Nokia’s weird business strategy …..
Totally Odd it make zero sense……
BB are on their arse, go Nokia, follow another failure.PS, I love my 6303 classic. Battery lasts a week and it is far better for general phone and text use than my iPhone (which I also love for entirely different reasons).
Pr1964 said:
No I'm serious.
How about this……… which man is more likely to be an alcoholic …?
Man 1 drinks and has loads of booze in his home?
Or
Man 2 who drinks but has none or very little booze in his home?
Im guessing man 3 who argues on and on about iPhones and supermarkets, refusing to be told, even by people with direct experience or knowledge How about this……… which man is more likely to be an alcoholic …?
Man 1 drinks and has loads of booze in his home?
Or
Man 2 who drinks but has none or very little booze in his home?
While I can appreciate your POV on there not being a phone that matches what you want (and I hear you on the battery issues) the "what you want" is probably less than 5% of the market. However, let's leave at that 5% and work from there.
I'd guess that the R&D costs for making a phone are probably broadly similar for any range of phones, but the more of a particular phone you make, the more that cost is amortised across the range and equally, on a smaller range the cost is a far greater proportion. Now factor in the old economies of scale and again things aren't looking great for the smaller range of phones, very quickly the actual margin on the smaller phones is looking pretty thin. The only way to claw that back is to ramp up the price, but once you start doing that you're inevitably going to chip away at that 5% of the market that's interested in the phone in the first place and you're rapidly into a vicious circle.
Gnash your teeth all you want, and rail at Nokia's "incompetence" but if I were a shareholder I'd be placing my money on Nokia knowing more about the successful route to balancing their P&L than you. You might not like the outcome of their decision making but I'd hazard a guess there's a hell of a lot more profit in a small slice of a very, very, very large steak and kidney pie than there is in the whole of an amuse bouche of a quails egg quiche that only a few people in the world want.
ETA and the whole "there's a big market for this because me and all my friends would buy one" is possibly/probably just because collectively you're all a broadly similar subset of the population so you're inevitably going to want/like broadly similar things. It doesn't change the fact that you're likely a very, very small subset (IYSWIM) and one that Nokia have consciously chosen to leave behind.
I'd guess that the R&D costs for making a phone are probably broadly similar for any range of phones, but the more of a particular phone you make, the more that cost is amortised across the range and equally, on a smaller range the cost is a far greater proportion. Now factor in the old economies of scale and again things aren't looking great for the smaller range of phones, very quickly the actual margin on the smaller phones is looking pretty thin. The only way to claw that back is to ramp up the price, but once you start doing that you're inevitably going to chip away at that 5% of the market that's interested in the phone in the first place and you're rapidly into a vicious circle.
Gnash your teeth all you want, and rail at Nokia's "incompetence" but if I were a shareholder I'd be placing my money on Nokia knowing more about the successful route to balancing their P&L than you. You might not like the outcome of their decision making but I'd hazard a guess there's a hell of a lot more profit in a small slice of a very, very, very large steak and kidney pie than there is in the whole of an amuse bouche of a quails egg quiche that only a few people in the world want.
ETA and the whole "there's a big market for this because me and all my friends would buy one" is possibly/probably just because collectively you're all a broadly similar subset of the population so you're inevitably going to want/like broadly similar things. It doesn't change the fact that you're likely a very, very small subset (IYSWIM) and one that Nokia have consciously chosen to leave behind.
Edited by DrTre on Wednesday 16th May 23:09
clonmult said:
I had no problems with my N95
My main issues were :-No PBAP support. Made in-car hands free painfull.
No internal GPS support. Having to use a hack to get TomTom working.
Poor build quality. Slider became loose in a week, matt covering peeling in a month, screen covered in scratches as it was plastic.
Poor browser. Trying to move a pointer with up/down/left/right pad was a nightmare and typing in web addresses with a numeric keypad.
Very clunky interface generally (trying to find 1 pic in 1000s was a royal pain).
I'm finished with what could have been a fairly interesting topic.
I'm bored of listening to your 'selective' anecdotes, that fly in the face of actual data which you could find with a quick search (but seem intent on ignoring). Smartphones make up over 50% of the UK's mobile phones, and touchscreen smartphones absolutely dominate new phone sales, and continue to increase their market influence.
Whether the "5%" is the future or not is impossible to predict. However, any mobile manufacturer who would target such a niche (particularly those not already in trouble) would be idiotic.
I'm bored of listening to your 'selective' anecdotes, that fly in the face of actual data which you could find with a quick search (but seem intent on ignoring). Smartphones make up over 50% of the UK's mobile phones, and touchscreen smartphones absolutely dominate new phone sales, and continue to increase their market influence.
Whether the "5%" is the future or not is impossible to predict. However, any mobile manufacturer who would target such a niche (particularly those not already in trouble) would be idiotic.
Pr1964 said:
... Still waiting for sales figures for touch over keypad input......... 
It's not about sales figures. It's about profit. Apple are doing rather well. They don't need to make a £100 phone because it's not their bag, and other people do it better (and cheaper). If only 1 in 4 people (have no idea what the actual figure is) buy a £500 phone, then that's a heck alot of profit. Actually, it's incredible to think the amount of computing power that the average person carries around with them.Edited by fido on Friday 18th May 09:13
Hi guys, just saw this thread and it reminded me of something else close to my heart.
I was in the pub the other day in a middle class area of South-West London with mainly guys in their mid-20's and early-30's and we were all talking about our preference for black and white TV's!!
I spoke to everyone in the pub and only one guy had a colour TV! We all agreed that monochrome is a much neater solution than this modern obsession with colour, Full HD, 3D, LED b
ks.
And don't get me started on remote controls! A manual tuning knob is vastly superior and gives a much better feel when changing channel than touching a button on a remote control.
People keep bleating on about f*****g colour TV's like they are actually an improvement on monochrome. My old 12" portable B+W telly uses less electricity than a 60" colour smart TV and is vastly superior for common day-to-day tasks like watching the 10 o'clock news and Countdown. I don't want any of this new crap like BBC3, iPlayer or colour pictures that reproduce the normal spectrum visible to humans.
I went into Currys and they literally had no black and white analogue TV's with a tuning knob on sale. I spoke to the salesman and he said that nearly everyday people were coming in and asking for these, but he had nothing to sell them! How has nobody spotted this niche.
Next i went into a small independent electricals shop. They had one very old black and white TV on the shelf amongst dozens of colour TV's! I spoke to the shop assistant and asked why there was only one. He said that they didn't seem to sell many these days and they have a lot of colour TV's on the shelf instead. I just didn't get his logic. Surely if there aren't many B+W TV's left on the shelf its because they've almost sold out and they are in demand, right?!?!? He had no riposte to my business acumen.
Anyway, why aren't Sony making these anymore? They have vast expertise in CRT technology and could be exploiting this profitable niche! AT LEAST 5% of people out there want a B+W TV. Sony is in big trouble with its TV business and trying to catch-up on OLED. They could be on the road to recovery if only they focussed on making good margins in B+W TV's. Fools!
I think i know the answer to why nobody is doing this. Its because of the current obsession with ****** ****** **** colour TV nonsense! People are just idiots and buy this colour crap because they are told to.
WHY WON'T THEY JUST INVEST MILLIONS IN MAKING SOMETHING BASED ON OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY THAT NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO BUY, JUST FOR SOME ECCENTRIC GUY ON THE INTERNET?!?!?
I was in the pub the other day in a middle class area of South-West London with mainly guys in their mid-20's and early-30's and we were all talking about our preference for black and white TV's!!
I spoke to everyone in the pub and only one guy had a colour TV! We all agreed that monochrome is a much neater solution than this modern obsession with colour, Full HD, 3D, LED b
ks.And don't get me started on remote controls! A manual tuning knob is vastly superior and gives a much better feel when changing channel than touching a button on a remote control.
People keep bleating on about f*****g colour TV's like they are actually an improvement on monochrome. My old 12" portable B+W telly uses less electricity than a 60" colour smart TV and is vastly superior for common day-to-day tasks like watching the 10 o'clock news and Countdown. I don't want any of this new crap like BBC3, iPlayer or colour pictures that reproduce the normal spectrum visible to humans.
I went into Currys and they literally had no black and white analogue TV's with a tuning knob on sale. I spoke to the salesman and he said that nearly everyday people were coming in and asking for these, but he had nothing to sell them! How has nobody spotted this niche.
Next i went into a small independent electricals shop. They had one very old black and white TV on the shelf amongst dozens of colour TV's! I spoke to the shop assistant and asked why there was only one. He said that they didn't seem to sell many these days and they have a lot of colour TV's on the shelf instead. I just didn't get his logic. Surely if there aren't many B+W TV's left on the shelf its because they've almost sold out and they are in demand, right?!?!? He had no riposte to my business acumen.
Anyway, why aren't Sony making these anymore? They have vast expertise in CRT technology and could be exploiting this profitable niche! AT LEAST 5% of people out there want a B+W TV. Sony is in big trouble with its TV business and trying to catch-up on OLED. They could be on the road to recovery if only they focussed on making good margins in B+W TV's. Fools!
I think i know the answer to why nobody is doing this. Its because of the current obsession with ****** ****** **** colour TV nonsense! People are just idiots and buy this colour crap because they are told to.
WHY WON'T THEY JUST INVEST MILLIONS IN MAKING SOMETHING BASED ON OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY THAT NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO BUY, JUST FOR SOME ECCENTRIC GUY ON THE INTERNET?!?!?
darth_pies said:
Hi guys, just saw this thread and it reminded me of something else close to my heart.
I was in the pub the other day in a middle class area of South-West London with mainly guys in their mid-20's and early-30's and we were all talking about our preference for black and white TV's!!
I spoke to everyone in the pub and only one guy had a colour TV! We all agreed that monochrome is a much neater solution than this modern obsession with colour, Full HD, 3D, LED bks.
And don't get me started on remote controls! A manual tuning knob is vastly superior and gives a much better feel when changing channel than touching a button on a remote control.
People keep bleating on about f*****g colour TV's like they are actually an improvement on monochrome. My old 12" portable B+W telly uses less electricity than a 60" colour smart TV and is vastly superior for common day-to-day tasks like watching the 10 o'clock news and Countdown. I don't want any of this new crap like BBC3, iPlayer or colour pictures that reproduce the normal spectrum visible to humans.
I went into Currys and they literally had no black and white analogue TV's with a tuning knob on sale. I spoke to the salesman and he said that nearly everyday people were coming in and asking for these, but he had nothing to sell them! How has nobody spotted this niche.
Next i went into a small independent electricals shop. They had one very old black and white TV on the shelf amongst dozens of colour TV's! I spoke to the shop assistant and asked why there was only one. He said that they didn't seem to sell many these days and they have a lot of colour TV's on the shelf instead. I just didn't get his logic. Surely if there aren't many B+W TV's left on the shelf its because they've almost sold out and they are in demand, right?!?!? He had no riposte to my business acumen.
Anyway, why aren't Sony making these anymore? They have vast expertise in CRT technology and could be exploiting this profitable niche! AT LEAST 5% of people out there want a B+W TV. Sony is in big trouble with its TV business and trying to catch-up on OLED. They could be on the road to recovery if only they focussed on making good margins in B+W TV's. Fools!
I think i know the answer to why nobody is doing this. Its because of the current obsession with ****** ****** **** colour TV nonsense! People are just idiots and buy this colour crap because they are told to.
WHY WON'T THEY JUST INVEST MILLIONS IN MAKING SOMETHING BASED ON OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY THAT NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO BUY, JUST FOR SOME ECCENTRIC GUY ON THE INTERNET?!?!?
fI was in the pub the other day in a middle class area of South-West London with mainly guys in their mid-20's and early-30's and we were all talking about our preference for black and white TV's!!
I spoke to everyone in the pub and only one guy had a colour TV! We all agreed that monochrome is a much neater solution than this modern obsession with colour, Full HD, 3D, LED b
ks.And don't get me started on remote controls! A manual tuning knob is vastly superior and gives a much better feel when changing channel than touching a button on a remote control.
People keep bleating on about f*****g colour TV's like they are actually an improvement on monochrome. My old 12" portable B+W telly uses less electricity than a 60" colour smart TV and is vastly superior for common day-to-day tasks like watching the 10 o'clock news and Countdown. I don't want any of this new crap like BBC3, iPlayer or colour pictures that reproduce the normal spectrum visible to humans.
I went into Currys and they literally had no black and white analogue TV's with a tuning knob on sale. I spoke to the salesman and he said that nearly everyday people were coming in and asking for these, but he had nothing to sell them! How has nobody spotted this niche.
Next i went into a small independent electricals shop. They had one very old black and white TV on the shelf amongst dozens of colour TV's! I spoke to the shop assistant and asked why there was only one. He said that they didn't seem to sell many these days and they have a lot of colour TV's on the shelf instead. I just didn't get his logic. Surely if there aren't many B+W TV's left on the shelf its because they've almost sold out and they are in demand, right?!?!? He had no riposte to my business acumen.
Anyway, why aren't Sony making these anymore? They have vast expertise in CRT technology and could be exploiting this profitable niche! AT LEAST 5% of people out there want a B+W TV. Sony is in big trouble with its TV business and trying to catch-up on OLED. They could be on the road to recovery if only they focussed on making good margins in B+W TV's. Fools!
I think i know the answer to why nobody is doing this. Its because of the current obsession with ****** ****** **** colour TV nonsense! People are just idiots and buy this colour crap because they are told to.
WHY WON'T THEY JUST INVEST MILLIONS IN MAKING SOMETHING BASED ON OUTDATED TECHNOLOGY THAT NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO BUY, JUST FOR SOME ECCENTRIC GUY ON THE INTERNET?!?!?
king huge LOL
Pr1964 said:
Still waiting fot those sales numbers of touch v's keypad. yawnnnnnn
Er, that's a figure you're supposed to be providing, to support your contention that every phone manufacturer on the planet has somehow overlooked this hugely lucrative niche inhabited by you and your three mates.CEO of AT&T Mobility pleased with Windows Phone and the future
Windows Phone marketshare reportedly overtakes the iPhone in China
Windows Phone sales nearly double in the US passing RIM, according to Kantar Worldpanel
Maybe not such a huge mistake then - still a long way to go of course.
Windows Phone marketshare reportedly overtakes the iPhone in China
Windows Phone sales nearly double in the US passing RIM, according to Kantar Worldpanel
Maybe not such a huge mistake then - still a long way to go of course.
fido said:
It's not about sales figures. It's about profit. Apple are doing rather well. They don't need to make a £100 phone because it's not their bag, and other people do it better (and cheaper).
You can get a pretty decent (effectively) SIM free android phone for ~£100 or a basic SIM free dumbphone for £9.97 which means that a feature phone probably has to retail, SIM free, for £20-80.
That means you probably need to sell 50-100 phones to approach the profit yielded by a single iPhone...
fluffnik said:
You can get a pretty decent (effectively) SIM free android phone for ~£100 or a basic SIM free dumbphone for £9.97 which means that a feature phone probably has to retail, SIM free, for £20-80.
That means you probably need to sell 50-100 phones to approach the profit yielded by a single iPhone...
Enjoyed reading your posts Pr1964 but now rather than posting all these articles perhaps you could just agree that the lower/volume end of the phone market is highly commoditized and thin on profits?
Nokia simply has to generate the profits available from smartphones to fund the billions in R&D it will take to even stay in the market vs. Apple and Samsung over the coming years.
Push-button feature phones still outsell touchscreen smartphones globally 2:1, but for example Samsung (who just overtook Nokia in absolute handset sales last quarter) make 70% of their total profits from smartphones. That's 70% of total profits for all products they sell just from Galaxy phones.
Meantime do you think by any chance all the developing markets might develop a taste for touchscreen smartphones over the next few years? No offence but you seem to be trying to command the tide not to come in.
Hold up, you're not Al Ries are you? http://adage.com/article/al-ries/iphone-fail/11735...
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