Huge mistake Nokia
Discussion
Pr1964 said:
You can get a pretty decent (effectively) SIM free android phone for ~£100 or a basic SIM free dumbphone for £9.97 which means that a feature phone probably has to retail, SIM free, for £20-80.
That means you probably need to sell 50-100 phones to approach the profit yielded by a single iPhone...
The iPhone is £500+That means you probably need to sell 50-100 phones to approach the profit yielded by a single iPhone...
I'm talking about the middle ground a mobile at £250-£350. Maybe even £450..
Pr1964 said:
That would still be a profitable product you would only need to sell 10 times as many to make the same profit and there's no reason why Nokia wouldn't be able to sell that many via converting existing dumb phone users who can afford or don't want a full blown smart phone .
Again there are heaps of feature-phones starting at very low prices, they may not offer quite the combination of features you ideally want but there's a huge choice...Pr1964 said:
The key is a product with a USP .
Nokia making a rival to the iPhone makes no sense there is nothing unique.
Indeed!Nokia making a rival to the iPhone makes no sense there is nothing unique.
Remember Palm?
I, like many, carried a phone and a PDA for a long time and was utterly delighted when the Treo came along. I kept my Treo 650 through a good many upgrade cycles passing a succession of "free" lightly featured Nokias with decent enough calendars to my Mum along the way.
Palm's USP was the ease of syncing/backing-up data and I only jumped ship to Android for the improved intervention free sync and back-up.
Pr1964 said:
Nokia making a smart light mobile with excellent battery life and familiar OS and familiar buttons and half the price = a USP ...
And that should = sales.
That's not really a USP, most button phones use the soft button + scroll paradigm pioneered by Nokia and tend to be more similar than different in operation.And that should = sales.
Being half price is not the way to profit either, especially as it expensive to provide physical buttons...
Pr1964 said:
Its key for Nokias survival is to retain as many existing happy nokia customers .... As possible...
I suspect they noticed that most high-end customer's who were jumping ship were headed towards the good ship touchscreen... Pr1964 said:
As I've said before reinventing the wheel "iPhone" isn't a good idea...
Indeed, but it's difficult to come up with ground-breaking innovation to order.
Pr1964 said:
MarkRSi said:
off_again said:
Pr1964 said:
NO
Why, whats up with them?
As in you don't know what you need or want so buy the Swiss army knife with tweezers and a magnifying glass who cares that it isn't the perfect tool for the job it'll do the job one way or other you're demands are not that exact.
I'm cutting bread all day long and I know that's what I do why would I buy a Swiss army knife or a Stanley knife?
But nooooooooo every
on here is telling me I need either a Stanley knife or a Swiss army knife.Why Because you are not smart smartphone users.......
Go Get an iPhone... Because you think it's clever to cut bread with a Stanley knife ...
Edit because my iPad touch keeps correction Wong ..
Edited by Pr1964 on Saturday 19th May 20:45
FWIW I bidded on the 710 (I seriously wasn't expecting to win it, just toying the idea) as a backup phone as my old Samsung D900 stopped liking SIM cards.
An A300 (used to have one actually, great phone) would probably suffice until I could recover my main phone (Motorola Atrix) after loading in another unstable ROM/over clocking to 50% over the stock speed and suffering a meltdown etc. etc. but would be good to have my emails (personal and work), half decent camera & video camera (again useful for work), and when I'm bored/waiting for someone etc. its nice to have a full screen for playing games/watching videos etc. Internet access has also been very useful on the odd occasion, and IMO try to look stuff up on anything less than a touch screen smartphone is just slow, clumsy and nasty.
I mean, how bad could a 710 possibly be?
Pr1964 said:
off_again said:
Pr1964 said:
NO
Why, whats up with them?101 REASONS NOT TO BUY A WINDOWS PHONE 7.5
...
Pr1964 said:
fluffnik said:
Indeed, but it's difficult to come up with ground-breaking innovation to order.
There was no need for ground-breaking innovation.Just carry on with the same continue the development alongside the new products.
Pr1964 said:
Elop killed Symbian which made money and was a decent product.
Its worst he also failed to launch other Nokia products.
That always struck me as unwise.Its worst he also failed to launch other Nokia products.
Pr1964 said:
There is no doubt touch is the future but there is still room for keypads ...
A shrinking niche I suspect.Pr1964 said:
Just as there is still room for manual cars...
Ditto.Pr1964 said:
My issue with Nokia is that they have left a gap in the market.
Have they? Others have flooded into every other niche...Pr1964 said:
It's simple to understand you need to read Tomi Ahonen blog to see why Symbian is better in many waya than iOS android etc
I don't doubt Symbian and MeGo have a lot going for them, so did BeOS.Pr1964 said:
How can you compare palm with Nokia are you potty?
Almost every person on the planet has used or owned a Nokia !
The palm was used by a few ....
Similar trajectory; from nowhere to dominance in a new market in short order followed by a bit of lounging on laurels.Almost every person on the planet has used or owned a Nokia !
The palm was used by a few ....
I've owned and used several Nokias, they were in general good bits of kit but each was less better than the competition than the last.
Pr1964 said:
You're writing nonsense...
Often, but not at the moment. 
king arthur said:
MarkRSi said:
Oh.
Just ignore all the nonsense and make up your own mind when you get the phone.I'll give a fair trial for this 710 and report back
fluffnik said:
I was shocked by that list too and I don't have a WinPhone! 
A number of them are "mis-informed" Also a number of them will be similar for android/iOS
You need to understand the context of the 101 list... it was writen by Pr1964 :jokes:
In reality for me,as a Nokia 800 owner, the only thing i am wating for is tethering (coming next month)
I use Nokia drive a lot (free) saves a navman etc. It is a good basic app
e.g.As for a lack of a native PDF reader,.. adobe has one for free
Think of a win7 phone is somewhere between android and iphone for how you can "MOD" it
MS have been silent on the WP8 and if the WP7 phone will be upgradable (silence to me, means it wont be) but for me I don't really see what WP8 will give me over WP7, that I will need.
Pr1964 said:
If you really must know......
101 REASONS NOT TO BUY A WINDOWS PHONE 7.5
Interesting, quote a few faults there and not even the ones I rejected buying a Lumia 800 for.101 REASONS NOT TO BUY A WINDOWS PHONE 7.5
I tried it out in the shops, I actually though they had made a decent go of a phone O/S, lot of the integration with social networking were quite good, also quite like the user interface. And the hardware is nice itself.
However, their implementation of cut & paste, Internet Explorer and the lack of support for some languages is just rubbish. I need to be able to send/receive Thai SMS - despite Nokia officially releasing the phone in Thailand it does not support the language natively. You have to install a 3rd party application with a Thai keyboard, then write your SMS, then copy and paste it into the SMS application. Quite possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever seen and the product will fail dismally in this market. What sort of company treats customers with that sort of contempt? (And I believe it is Nokia, not MS)
Pr1964 said:
Simbian shouldn't be killed off, insane situation.
Totally agree, but it has effectively been killed off by some of the most incompetent management on the planet.While I'm looking forward to getting the 808 (hopefully in a couple of weeks), I'd love to know why they've stuck with the old ARM architecture. No reason why they couldn't go the Cortex route. Samsung did it with the i8910, so Symbian has can run on much faster hardware without issue.
As of last Feb (the burning platform speech), Elop ignored the fact that Symbian was still the best selling platform (albeit by a much reduced margin), and had the second most profitable ecosystem (making more money for devs than Android did).
But telling the world that you're dropping your primary product for one that the market wasn't really showing any interest in was insanity of the highest order.
Pr1964 said:
Simbian shouldn't be killed off, insane situation.
It should. It's awful.It's like complaining that you can't do stuff in Windows7 that you could in Windows NT.
Nokia had a good run, but failed to spot people wanted either slick interfaces and easy to use, or slick interfaces and customisable. And people are obviously happy to pay a premium for this.
Instead they stuck with clunky hardware (which got worse and worse in quality) and outdated bug ridden software (and never upgraded it) and sold on a name (which they then lost).
Nokia were always on a race to the bottom where SE made better cameras and music players, and Moto made funkier handsets. Their smartphones always felt like an afterthought.
Compare a simple thing like getting an email and reading it on an E75, a HD7 or a 3GS (all about around the same time). Two were easy to use. The Nokia would be slow, over complicated and usually involve resetting the damn thing weekly to make sure it would sync and you'd get it in the first place.
No point having a battery that lasts 3 days if you are having to pop the thing out to reset the phone every time you want to collect an email.
Bibbs said:
It should. It's awful.
It's like complaining that you can't do stuff in Windows7 that you could in Windows NT.
Nokia had a good run, but failed to spot people wanted either slick interfaces and easy to use, or slick interfaces and customisable. And people are obviously happy to pay a premium for this.
Instead they stuck with clunky hardware (which got worse and worse in quality) and outdated bug ridden software (and never upgraded it) and sold on a name (which they then lost).
Nokia were always on a race to the bottom where SE made better cameras and music players, and Moto made funkier handsets. Their smartphones always felt like an afterthought.
Compare a simple thing like getting an email and reading it on an E75, a HD7 or a 3GS (all about around the same time). Two were easy to use. The Nokia would be slow, over complicated and usually involve resetting the damn thing weekly to make sure it would sync and you'd get it in the first place.
No point having a battery that lasts 3 days if you are having to pop the thing out to reset the phone every time you want to collect an email.
Agreed 100%, I was always jealous of my mate on how much better his iPhone was than my n95 8gb, which was shockingly out dated compared to the iPhone.It's like complaining that you can't do stuff in Windows7 that you could in Windows NT.
Nokia had a good run, but failed to spot people wanted either slick interfaces and easy to use, or slick interfaces and customisable. And people are obviously happy to pay a premium for this.
Instead they stuck with clunky hardware (which got worse and worse in quality) and outdated bug ridden software (and never upgraded it) and sold on a name (which they then lost).
Nokia were always on a race to the bottom where SE made better cameras and music players, and Moto made funkier handsets. Their smartphones always felt like an afterthought.
Compare a simple thing like getting an email and reading it on an E75, a HD7 or a 3GS (all about around the same time). Two were easy to use. The Nokia would be slow, over complicated and usually involve resetting the damn thing weekly to make sure it would sync and you'd get it in the first place.
No point having a battery that lasts 3 days if you are having to pop the thing out to reset the phone every time you want to collect an email.
Reports are also coming out that Windows Phones are outselling iPhones in china.
Regiment said:
Agreed 100%, I was always jealous of my mate on how much better his iPhone was than my n95 8gb, which was shockingly out dated compared to the iPhone.
Was my last Nokia. I got the wife a 2nd hand 1st gen iPhone about the same time (it was a generation old then) and it did everything so much better.The N95 had a great spec, but just didn't deliver.
I then got an iPod touch and only really used the N95 to create a WiFi hotspot so I could get emails/web browse on the fly.
I then came to my senses and swapped both of them (and binned my satnav, cheap camera, portable DVD player and hand held console) for an all in one touch screen phone.
For me their last deicent phone was the 8210.
Bibbs said:
It should. It's awful.
It's like complaining that you can't do stuff in Windows7 that you could in Windows NT.
Nokia had a good run, but failed to spot people wanted either slick interfaces and easy to use, or slick interfaces and customisable. And people are obviously happy to pay a premium for this.
Instead they stuck with clunky hardware (which got worse and worse in quality) and outdated bug ridden software (and never upgraded it) and sold on a name (which they then lost).
What is irritating is that as of S^3, and specifically the Belle update Symbian is about as bug free and reliable as you could ever want a phone to be.It's like complaining that you can't do stuff in Windows7 that you could in Windows NT.
Nokia had a good run, but failed to spot people wanted either slick interfaces and easy to use, or slick interfaces and customisable. And people are obviously happy to pay a premium for this.
Instead they stuck with clunky hardware (which got worse and worse in quality) and outdated bug ridden software (and never upgraded it) and sold on a name (which they then lost).
And even prior to that, as long as you stuck to standard (not operator customised) firmware, they tended to be reliable - at least that is what I found on my N73 and N95.
Bibbs said:
Nokia were always on a race to the bottom where SE made better cameras and music players, and Moto made funkier handsets. Their smartphones always felt like an afterthought.
Not sure which universe you're in that SE made better cameras and music players - the N73 had a better camera than the K800/810, the N95 was a reasonable all round camera, and due to a well configured xenon flash the N82 would better most current mobiles on low-light imaging.Moto did make funky handsets - the Razr is a truly fantastic piece of design. But it didn't have the software to back up the design.
Bibbs said:
Nokia had a good run, but failed to spot people wanted either slick interfaces and easy to use, or slick interfaces and customisable. And people are obviously happy to pay a premium for this.
Agree, but i think there is still space in the 'business-end' of the market [Blackberry-type phones] and the N-series phones can, or could have co-existed with their Windows Phones. So perhaps Symbian could have continued in this capacity. As said previously though, they have left things too late to go down this route.The only Symbian phone I had was the 5800 XpressMusic. Was this a particularly good example of a Symbian phone?
Whilst it was OK, I felt the my first Android phone (ZTE Blade) was vastly better from a user experience point of view (Although the 5800 had admittedly a bit less power than my first Android phone a ZTE Blade (434MHz/128MB vs 600MHz/512MB) The 5800 felt like nothing more than a basic feature phone with the ability to install apps more easily, while android was much more customisable and generally felt more up to date and a worthy iPhone competitor.
Whilst it was OK, I felt the my first Android phone (ZTE Blade) was vastly better from a user experience point of view (Although the 5800 had admittedly a bit less power than my first Android phone a ZTE Blade (434MHz/128MB vs 600MHz/512MB) The 5800 felt like nothing more than a basic feature phone with the ability to install apps more easily, while android was much more customisable and generally felt more up to date and a worthy iPhone competitor.
Edited by MarkRSi on Monday 21st May 13:43
MarkRSi said:
The only Symbian phone was the 5800 XpressMusic. Was this a particularly good example of a Symbian phone?
I still have mine and got in on contract when it first came out.Terrible phone. Touchscreen is slow and response time is poor. Click..wait..wait.. etc. This mainly happens if you have more than five icons on the screen at once.
Hold and slide sometimes works and other times will click instead.
Some great features. Stereo sound, TV connection, assisted GPS BUT it feels like a rushed product and I think it was put up against the iPhone.
It really feels like it was a normal product that was made "touch" rather than working from the ground up.
What would have been the "killer app" would be the ability for it to have run DivX.
Reason why I keep it? The camera.
Bibbs said:
Was my last Nokia. I got the wife a 2nd hand 1st gen iPhone about the same time (it was a generation old then) and it did everything so much better.
The N95 had a great spec, but just didn't deliver.
I then got an iPod touch and only really used the N95 to create a WiFi hotspot so I could get emails/web browse on the fly.
I then came to my senses and swapped both of them (and binned my satnav, cheap camera, portable DVD player and hand held console) for an all in one touch screen phone.
For me their last deicent phone was the 8210.
It did have a good spec, it was just let down by the poor user interface to me. Yes, i could surf the internet and get emails, and send picture messages on it, did i want to...nope, purely for the reason because it was such a bothersome task.The N95 had a great spec, but just didn't deliver.
I then got an iPod touch and only really used the N95 to create a WiFi hotspot so I could get emails/web browse on the fly.
I then came to my senses and swapped both of them (and binned my satnav, cheap camera, portable DVD player and hand held console) for an all in one touch screen phone.
For me their last deicent phone was the 8210.
Morningside said:
Reason why I keep it? The camera.
The camera in the 5800 was dire!I had a 5800 on its release, and absolutely loathed it. Gave it away to my step son, he liked it.
6 months later I picked up a 5230 - same basic device, but "cheaper". The UI niggles were cleared up, and they actually turned it into quite a usable device.
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