C63 - a good buy?
Discussion
Hello all,
I am trying to decide on my next car purchase. Budget is up to £30,000.
I am currently between a C63, Porsche 911 997 and Jag XKR.
Could any C63 oweners advise on living with one day to day. Real life costs (inc MPG which i'm guessing will be around 15?) and if you have any experience of the other two and how it compares?
I appreciate in the Mercedes section views may be slightly biased, but just trying to do my research fully as never been able to spend anywhere close to this on a car before.
Many thanks in anticipation,
Paul
I am trying to decide on my next car purchase. Budget is up to £30,000.
I am currently between a C63, Porsche 911 997 and Jag XKR.
Could any C63 oweners advise on living with one day to day. Real life costs (inc MPG which i'm guessing will be around 15?) and if you have any experience of the other two and how it compares?
I appreciate in the Mercedes section views may be slightly biased, but just trying to do my research fully as never been able to spend anywhere close to this on a car before.
Many thanks in anticipation,
Paul
Let me start it off....A C63 is an astonishing car. I have had a number of cars of this ilk and the C63 is amongst the favourites. A C63 gets into your soul with that engine noise. Unlike a 911, you can lift the bonnet and admire the V8, hand made by one man. The C63 is absolutely a wolf in sheep's clothing. It looks like a C class to the uninitiated, but as I say, 'if you know....you know', and you can take pleasure in that. The aggressive stance gives it purpose. I adore the shape of the bonnet on the pre-facelift car and the arches that just fit the wide alloys. Those who do know what it is, will note it in their rear view mirrors and will wind their windows down on the motorway when you pass! Those who are overtaking you will see the four pipes at the back and wind their windows down as they drive past! Most will give a thumbs up. Drive it slowly, drive it fast, it delivers what you need and sounds great. Genuinely 4 seats if you need them, and astonishing performance and that addictive noise. You have to resist. It's hard not to drive like a hooligan! Mpg? Consequently, you wont get much. I have achieved 26 on a run of about 40 miles but mostly it averages 19 or so. RFL is £500 a year and insurance on a limited 8000 miles policy is surprisingly good, for me at £210/year. A Merc Tier 1 warranty is £1255 a year.
If you're going to decide C63, the consensus is go for the performance pack. There is debate as to what this means, and in the newer cars there is a performance pack plus. Mine is a 2008 and has the performance pack,19" wheels and mechanical LSD. The ride is hard....boneshakingky on bad roads. Careful for potholes, as the wheels seem to be fragile.
You're rigtht that there will be some bias here!!
Good luck either way.
Rgds, Brin
If you're going to decide C63, the consensus is go for the performance pack. There is debate as to what this means, and in the newer cars there is a performance pack plus. Mine is a 2008 and has the performance pack,19" wheels and mechanical LSD. The ride is hard....boneshakingky on bad roads. Careful for potholes, as the wheels seem to be fragile.
You're rigtht that there will be some bias here!!
Good luck either way.
Rgds, Brin
Edited by Big Brin on Tuesday 3rd February 20:05
I bought a C63 coupe about a month ago. Very happy with it but there are pluses and minuses as with everything.
Plus points:
- Noise
- Performance
- Looks - subtle but menacing
Negatives:
- MPG/range - I get about 15 around town and the fuel tank is quite small.
- Interior could be more special - friend has a C180 saloon and it's pretty similar
The noise in manual mode particularly is mental. Lifting off the throttle at high revs gives a turbine like sound, sounds like nothing else.
Not sure if you are looking at the saloon or the coupe. But the coupes started at around 33k when I was looking, whereas a saloon can be had for low 20s.
I went for palladium grey with the 19'' (mulitspoke) alloys. Prefer the look of those to the five spokes 18s, which I think look lost in the arches. Some people on MB club have fitted BBS CH-Rs which look amazing. The ride is firm, but no worse than the 996 C4s I had before.
For the 911 comparison - I've owned a 996C4s and driven a 997 C2s.
The C2s is probably about as quick as the C63, but needs more revving. Sound, even with PSE is nowhere near as good. Car feels a lot more planted. I would worry a bit about the engine issues (friend had scored bores on his). Best way to avoid that is to get a Gen 2 but think you would need 35k+.
In terms of 911 vs C63 I think you need to balance up:
handling (911)
rear seat space (C63)
sound (C63)
luggage room (C63)
mpg (911)
looks (911)
Plus points:
- Noise
- Performance
- Looks - subtle but menacing
Negatives:
- MPG/range - I get about 15 around town and the fuel tank is quite small.
- Interior could be more special - friend has a C180 saloon and it's pretty similar
The noise in manual mode particularly is mental. Lifting off the throttle at high revs gives a turbine like sound, sounds like nothing else.
Not sure if you are looking at the saloon or the coupe. But the coupes started at around 33k when I was looking, whereas a saloon can be had for low 20s.
I went for palladium grey with the 19'' (mulitspoke) alloys. Prefer the look of those to the five spokes 18s, which I think look lost in the arches. Some people on MB club have fitted BBS CH-Rs which look amazing. The ride is firm, but no worse than the 996 C4s I had before.
For the 911 comparison - I've owned a 996C4s and driven a 997 C2s.
The C2s is probably about as quick as the C63, but needs more revving. Sound, even with PSE is nowhere near as good. Car feels a lot more planted. I would worry a bit about the engine issues (friend had scored bores on his). Best way to avoid that is to get a Gen 2 but think you would need 35k+.
In terms of 911 vs C63 I think you need to balance up:
handling (911)
rear seat space (C63)
sound (C63)
luggage room (C63)
mpg (911)
looks (911)
Edited by hungry_hog on Tuesday 3rd February 21:39
Completely agree with Big Brin. I was looking at a 997 C4S to have alongside a plodder for my wife. Once I had driven the C63, it was easy to settle on just having just one car. It is so accomplished.
If you want to do lots of track days or scorch around B roads at warpspeed on Sunday morning at daybreak, the 911 will be hard to beat.
My PPP does everything. it trundles to the supermarket and swallows shopping, it took us from London throughout Norfolk with two racing bikes in the rear seat compartment, it carries my in-laws in "abject luxury" (their words, not mine) to lunch, my wife falls asleep in the heated passenger seat to the thrum of the V8. It'll hopefully also carry my newborn child (see other thread!!).
But it also makes you grin on so many occasions. Door open as you start the engine, pricking your ear as your wife drives off having dropped you off somewhere, the obscene noises that it makes on hard acceleration and lift off, the lusty grrr of a half throttle mid-range acceleration, the whipcrack noise of a quick stab of the exhaust at idle.
I am not a trackday hero (but I like the idea of trying a day possibly), it's a heavy old car if you tried to chase a 911 down a B-road. But I ran it down to devon and back the other weekend and it was perfect, thrumming along at speed, so comfortable, incredible dolby sound, heated seats.
Am I worried about servicing, Petrol and tyres?
- No, Mercedes does a very good value service plan which also gives you superb breakdown assist, replacement car etc
- Petrol is going to be nice and cheap for a long time. Over 40,000 miles, my car is showing 20mpg. On a motorway run, I see 24-26 mpg. Given that our other car knocks out about 10mpg on the motorway, this has been christened the Eco-Merc!
- Search about and tyres are cheap-ish, not to mention doing a few less 'skids' will help. I imagine if you drive it like a fool, it will munch fuel at an alarming rate and burn through tyres. But then, so will the Porsche.
I personally think the pre-facelift looks the best with real aggression but still to the punter looking like a sensible four door saloon.
Gripes, I would add to the wheel argument, having replaced all 4 of my 19" wheels recently but I got a very good deal on them. It can also be a bit embarrasing when the exhaust goes "RARRRRRRRGH" when you are trying to be a little lower profile.
If you're a similar person to me. I cannot recommend the Eco-Merc enough. If you want to thunder through Wales every weekend sideways, perhaps go for the 911. Measnt in the politest possible way BTW.
Good luck. Tom
If you want to do lots of track days or scorch around B roads at warpspeed on Sunday morning at daybreak, the 911 will be hard to beat.
My PPP does everything. it trundles to the supermarket and swallows shopping, it took us from London throughout Norfolk with two racing bikes in the rear seat compartment, it carries my in-laws in "abject luxury" (their words, not mine) to lunch, my wife falls asleep in the heated passenger seat to the thrum of the V8. It'll hopefully also carry my newborn child (see other thread!!).
But it also makes you grin on so many occasions. Door open as you start the engine, pricking your ear as your wife drives off having dropped you off somewhere, the obscene noises that it makes on hard acceleration and lift off, the lusty grrr of a half throttle mid-range acceleration, the whipcrack noise of a quick stab of the exhaust at idle.
I am not a trackday hero (but I like the idea of trying a day possibly), it's a heavy old car if you tried to chase a 911 down a B-road. But I ran it down to devon and back the other weekend and it was perfect, thrumming along at speed, so comfortable, incredible dolby sound, heated seats.
Am I worried about servicing, Petrol and tyres?
- No, Mercedes does a very good value service plan which also gives you superb breakdown assist, replacement car etc
- Petrol is going to be nice and cheap for a long time. Over 40,000 miles, my car is showing 20mpg. On a motorway run, I see 24-26 mpg. Given that our other car knocks out about 10mpg on the motorway, this has been christened the Eco-Merc!
- Search about and tyres are cheap-ish, not to mention doing a few less 'skids' will help. I imagine if you drive it like a fool, it will munch fuel at an alarming rate and burn through tyres. But then, so will the Porsche.
I personally think the pre-facelift looks the best with real aggression but still to the punter looking like a sensible four door saloon.
Gripes, I would add to the wheel argument, having replaced all 4 of my 19" wheels recently but I got a very good deal on them. It can also be a bit embarrasing when the exhaust goes "RARRRRRRRGH" when you are trying to be a little lower profile.
If you're a similar person to me. I cannot recommend the Eco-Merc enough. If you want to thunder through Wales every weekend sideways, perhaps go for the 911. Measnt in the politest possible way BTW.
Good luck. Tom
tch911 said:
Completely agree with Big Brin. I was looking at a 997 C4S to have alongside a plodder for my wife. Once I had driven the C63, it was easy to settle on just having just one car. It is so accomplished.
If you want to do lots of track days or scorch around B roads at warpspeed on Sunday morning at daybreak, the 911 will be hard to beat.
My PPP does everything. it trundles to the supermarket and swallows shopping, it took us from London throughout Norfolk with two racing bikes in the rear seat compartment, it carries my in-laws in "abject luxury" (their words, not mine) to lunch, my wife falls asleep in the heated passenger seat to the thrum of the V8. It'll hopefully also carry my newborn child (see other thread!!).
But it also makes you grin on so many occasions. Door open as you start the engine, pricking your ear as your wife drives off having dropped you off somewhere, the obscene noises that it makes on hard acceleration and lift off, the lusty grrr of a half throttle mid-range acceleration, the whipcrack noise of a quick stab of the exhaust at idle.
I am not a trackday hero (but I like the idea of trying a day possibly), it's a heavy old car if you tried to chase a 911 down a B-road. But I ran it down to devon and back the other weekend and it was perfect, thrumming along at speed, so comfortable, incredible dolby sound, heated seats.
Am I worried about servicing, Petrol and tyres?
- No, Mercedes does a very good value service plan which also gives you superb breakdown assist, replacement car etc
- Petrol is going to be nice and cheap for a long time. Over 40,000 miles, my car is showing 20mpg. On a motorway run, I see 24-26 mpg. Given that our other car knocks out about 10mpg on the motorway, this has been christened the Eco-Merc!
- Search about and tyres are cheap-ish, not to mention doing a few less 'skids' will help. I imagine if you drive it like a fool, it will munch fuel at an alarming rate and burn through tyres. But then, so will the Porsche.
I personally think the pre-facelift looks the best with real aggression but still to the punter looking like a sensible four door saloon.
Gripes, I would add to the wheel argument, having replaced all 4 of my 19" wheels recently but I got a very good deal on them. It can also be a bit embarrasing when the exhaust goes "RARRRRRRRGH" when you are trying to be a little lower profile.
If you're a similar person to me. I cannot recommend the Eco-Merc enough. If you want to thunder through Wales every weekend sideways, perhaps go for the 911. Measnt in the politest possible way BTW.
Good luck. Tom
Tom, If you want to do lots of track days or scorch around B roads at warpspeed on Sunday morning at daybreak, the 911 will be hard to beat.
My PPP does everything. it trundles to the supermarket and swallows shopping, it took us from London throughout Norfolk with two racing bikes in the rear seat compartment, it carries my in-laws in "abject luxury" (their words, not mine) to lunch, my wife falls asleep in the heated passenger seat to the thrum of the V8. It'll hopefully also carry my newborn child (see other thread!!).
But it also makes you grin on so many occasions. Door open as you start the engine, pricking your ear as your wife drives off having dropped you off somewhere, the obscene noises that it makes on hard acceleration and lift off, the lusty grrr of a half throttle mid-range acceleration, the whipcrack noise of a quick stab of the exhaust at idle.
I am not a trackday hero (but I like the idea of trying a day possibly), it's a heavy old car if you tried to chase a 911 down a B-road. But I ran it down to devon and back the other weekend and it was perfect, thrumming along at speed, so comfortable, incredible dolby sound, heated seats.
Am I worried about servicing, Petrol and tyres?
- No, Mercedes does a very good value service plan which also gives you superb breakdown assist, replacement car etc
- Petrol is going to be nice and cheap for a long time. Over 40,000 miles, my car is showing 20mpg. On a motorway run, I see 24-26 mpg. Given that our other car knocks out about 10mpg on the motorway, this has been christened the Eco-Merc!
- Search about and tyres are cheap-ish, not to mention doing a few less 'skids' will help. I imagine if you drive it like a fool, it will munch fuel at an alarming rate and burn through tyres. But then, so will the Porsche.
I personally think the pre-facelift looks the best with real aggression but still to the punter looking like a sensible four door saloon.
Gripes, I would add to the wheel argument, having replaced all 4 of my 19" wheels recently but I got a very good deal on them. It can also be a bit embarrasing when the exhaust goes "RARRRRRRRGH" when you are trying to be a little lower profile.
If you're a similar person to me. I cannot recommend the Eco-Merc enough. If you want to thunder through Wales every weekend sideways, perhaps go for the 911. Measnt in the politest possible way BTW.
Good luck. Tom
Great description of the C63. I am currently toying with the idea of selling my 67 Eleanor(Too precious, can't park it anywhere, 11mpg, fair weather only) and replacing it with a C63 and then possibly selling my daily driver(335D) to use the C63 as my only car.
Edited by 67Eleanor on Wednesday 4th February 14:50
67Eleanor said:
Tom,
Great description of the C63. I am currently toying the idea of selling my 67 Eleanor(Too precious, can't park it anywhere, 11mpg, fair weather only) and replacing it with a C63 and then possibly selling my daily driver(335D) to use the C63 as my only car.
Ha ha, excellent! Let me know when you do sell the Mustang, there's always the need for another gas guzzler in our household!Great description of the C63. I am currently toying the idea of selling my 67 Eleanor(Too precious, can't park it anywhere, 11mpg, fair weather only) and replacing it with a C63 and then possibly selling my daily driver(335D) to use the C63 as my only car.
You will not regret it at all...except getting rid of the Mustang, of course.
tch911 said:
Completely agree with Big Brin. I was looking at a 997 C4S to have alongside a plodder for my wife. Once I had driven the C63, it was easy to settle on just having just one car. It is so accomplished.
If you want to do lots of track days or scorch around B roads at warpspeed on Sunday morning at daybreak, the 911 will be hard to beat.
My PPP does everything. it trundles to the supermarket and swallows shopping, it took us from London throughout Norfolk with two racing bikes in the rear seat compartment, it carries my in-laws in "abject luxury" (their words, not mine) to lunch, my wife falls asleep in the heated passenger seat to the thrum of the V8. It'll hopefully also carry my newborn child (see other thread!!).
But it also makes you grin on so many occasions. Door open as you start the engine, pricking your ear as your wife drives off having dropped you off somewhere, the obscene noises that it makes on hard acceleration and lift off, the lusty grrr of a half throttle mid-range acceleration, the whipcrack noise of a quick stab of the exhaust at idle.
I am not a trackday hero (but I like the idea of trying a day possibly), it's a heavy old car if you tried to chase a 911 down a B-road. But I ran it down to devon and back the other weekend and it was perfect, thrumming along at speed, so comfortable, incredible dolby sound, heated seats.
Am I worried about servicing, Petrol and tyres?
- No, Mercedes does a very good value service plan which also gives you superb breakdown assist, replacement car etc
- Petrol is going to be nice and cheap for a long time. Over 40,000 miles, my car is showing 20mpg. On a motorway run, I see 24-26 mpg. Given that our other car knocks out about 10mpg on the motorway, this has been christened the Eco-Merc!
- Search about and tyres are cheap-ish, not to mention doing a few less 'skids' will help. I imagine if you drive it like a fool, it will munch fuel at an alarming rate and burn through tyres. But then, so will the Porsche.
I personally think the pre-facelift looks the best with real aggression but still to the punter looking like a sensible four door saloon.
Gripes, I would add to the wheel argument, having replaced all 4 of my 19" wheels recently but I got a very good deal on them. It can also be a bit embarrasing when the exhaust goes "RARRRRRRRGH" when you are trying to be a little lower profile.
If you're a similar person to me. I cannot recommend the Eco-Merc enough. If you want to thunder through Wales every weekend sideways, perhaps go for the 911. Measnt in the politest possible way BTW.
Good luck. Tom
Hi Tom,If you want to do lots of track days or scorch around B roads at warpspeed on Sunday morning at daybreak, the 911 will be hard to beat.
My PPP does everything. it trundles to the supermarket and swallows shopping, it took us from London throughout Norfolk with two racing bikes in the rear seat compartment, it carries my in-laws in "abject luxury" (their words, not mine) to lunch, my wife falls asleep in the heated passenger seat to the thrum of the V8. It'll hopefully also carry my newborn child (see other thread!!).
But it also makes you grin on so many occasions. Door open as you start the engine, pricking your ear as your wife drives off having dropped you off somewhere, the obscene noises that it makes on hard acceleration and lift off, the lusty grrr of a half throttle mid-range acceleration, the whipcrack noise of a quick stab of the exhaust at idle.
I am not a trackday hero (but I like the idea of trying a day possibly), it's a heavy old car if you tried to chase a 911 down a B-road. But I ran it down to devon and back the other weekend and it was perfect, thrumming along at speed, so comfortable, incredible dolby sound, heated seats.
Am I worried about servicing, Petrol and tyres?
- No, Mercedes does a very good value service plan which also gives you superb breakdown assist, replacement car etc
- Petrol is going to be nice and cheap for a long time. Over 40,000 miles, my car is showing 20mpg. On a motorway run, I see 24-26 mpg. Given that our other car knocks out about 10mpg on the motorway, this has been christened the Eco-Merc!
- Search about and tyres are cheap-ish, not to mention doing a few less 'skids' will help. I imagine if you drive it like a fool, it will munch fuel at an alarming rate and burn through tyres. But then, so will the Porsche.
I personally think the pre-facelift looks the best with real aggression but still to the punter looking like a sensible four door saloon.
Gripes, I would add to the wheel argument, having replaced all 4 of my 19" wheels recently but I got a very good deal on them. It can also be a bit embarrasing when the exhaust goes "RARRRRRRRGH" when you are trying to be a little lower profile.
If you're a similar person to me. I cannot recommend the Eco-Merc enough. If you want to thunder through Wales every weekend sideways, perhaps go for the 911. Measnt in the politest possible way BTW.
Good luck. Tom
Excellent comments. Thanks so much! Pretty much cemented my decision!
Just a heads up - there was a head bolt modification (a different type) from engine number ending in 60658.
Earlier ones have the potential to fail resulting in a coolant/oil mix with expensive consequences.
It's rare, but worth knowing - you'll find plenty on Google about it.
The V5 will show the engine number.
ARP studs can be fitted as a one for one swap out and some on here have had it done.
I had the heads removed and new bolts/gaskets fitted, but it's expensive.
Earlier ones have the potential to fail resulting in a coolant/oil mix with expensive consequences.
It's rare, but worth knowing - you'll find plenty on Google about it.
The V5 will show the engine number.
ARP studs can be fitted as a one for one swap out and some on here have had it done.
I had the heads removed and new bolts/gaskets fitted, but it's expensive.
Edited by developer on Wednesday 4th February 20:03
developer said:
Just a heads up - there was a head bolt modification (a different type) from engine number ending in 60658.
Earlier ones have the potential to fail resulting in a coolant/oil mix with expensive consequences.
It's rare, but worth knowing - you'll find plenty on Google about it.
The V5 will show the engine number.
ARP studs can be fitted as a one for one swap out and some on here have had it done.
I had the heads removed and new bolts/gaskets fitted, but it's expensive.
Very interesting - thanks!Earlier ones have the potential to fail resulting in a coolant/oil mix with expensive consequences.
It's rare, but worth knowing - you'll find plenty on Google about it.
The V5 will show the engine number.
ARP studs can be fitted as a one for one swap out and some on here have had it done.
I had the heads removed and new bolts/gaskets fitted, but it's expensive.
Edited by developer on Wednesday 4th February 20:03
Had one and sold it after 6 months, really miss it and want to get back into one. At the time I was doing to many miles and the costs were killing me (petrol and tyres) I just got sick of filling up 3 times a week...........
No car has been so entertaining and I have had a 911, XFR, Cayenne Turbo etc.
No car has been so entertaining and I have had a 911, XFR, Cayenne Turbo etc.
I had a 2012 Coupe on lease for 2 years and it was sensational.
The deal was originally done with my head and looking at forecast fuel prices, and to be honest at the beginning it did cost a lot when I was doing 15k per annum. That quickly changed along with the fuel price but it was too late and the car had to go back - a shame as I do about 8k now and fuel is about 30% cheaper.
I echo the words in this thread except to say that the facelift interior is a huge improvement over the pre-facelift which I thought was awful and sub-standard (I had a 2010 C350 too).
I have to say that I was a little concerned with year 2+ running costs but they are pretty much in line with all other cars of similar ilk.
I do like to have the comfort of a service plan though as it stops hidden surprises.
Nothing beats the noise outside of an R8 V10 or Ferrari 430 in my opinion, I drove everywhere with the windows down, roof open and heaters on, especially through tunnels or areas with echo
I'm stuck in a diesel for the next 2-3 years but I will be buying a new C63S Estate as my next car.
The deal was originally done with my head and looking at forecast fuel prices, and to be honest at the beginning it did cost a lot when I was doing 15k per annum. That quickly changed along with the fuel price but it was too late and the car had to go back - a shame as I do about 8k now and fuel is about 30% cheaper.
I echo the words in this thread except to say that the facelift interior is a huge improvement over the pre-facelift which I thought was awful and sub-standard (I had a 2010 C350 too).
I have to say that I was a little concerned with year 2+ running costs but they are pretty much in line with all other cars of similar ilk.
I do like to have the comfort of a service plan though as it stops hidden surprises.
Nothing beats the noise outside of an R8 V10 or Ferrari 430 in my opinion, I drove everywhere with the windows down, roof open and heaters on, especially through tunnels or areas with echo
I'm stuck in a diesel for the next 2-3 years but I will be buying a new C63S Estate as my next car.
Got a 2014 C63 saloon in November and loving it. Self confessed BMW fan boy here with years of M car ownership and I picked it over the E92 M3 and the 1M. Puts a smile on my face everyday. I opted for a standard car (which only has the 457hp) with the locking diff option. Done about 1.5k miles in it and averaging 17mpg. Get a facelift version if you can, the interior upgrades are worth it.
I have owned 2 XKRs and currently use a 63 plate C63 as my daily driver. The technology on the XKR is very old fashioned - sat nav, bluetooth etc. The C63 is far better in this regard. C63 I average (after 12k) 21mpg although when new it was about 19mpg. The XKRs were about 22mpg.
The ride on the XKR is far, far better. Good grip, great handling but supple with it. The C63 is much firmer.
I prefer the look of the XKR, but the C63 is a proper four seater, the XKR rear seat is only for small children.
Reliability and servicing, C63 wins.
Neither expensive to insure for me, but C63 slightly less.
Noise, C63!
Image XKR
C63 more versatile and seats excellent. Both very good cars
The ride on the XKR is far, far better. Good grip, great handling but supple with it. The C63 is much firmer.
I prefer the look of the XKR, but the C63 is a proper four seater, the XKR rear seat is only for small children.
Reliability and servicing, C63 wins.
Neither expensive to insure for me, but C63 slightly less.
Noise, C63!
Image XKR
C63 more versatile and seats excellent. Both very good cars
MagicMike said:
Thanks, a great read. Never better than 14mpg??I am a serial 911 nut (had most over the years, still got 3) but the car I choose as my daily driver is a 2013 C63 wagon - I absolutely love it. Much more fun than a C2S 997 believe it or not ! You never hear a bad word spoken about them from owners either, which is more than can be said with 996/977 Carreras and M3's etc.
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