Sublime Pandamonium II
Discussion
Following yesterdays near death experience for my FrankenFiat engine I thought I'd spend a little time with the Fantasia today. The battery had been on charge overnight so I turned the key to hear the motor whirring away to itself. The car has been stood too long and the starter solenoid was failing to engage the flywheel. Got the bonnet up, air box off and clicked the socket to the ratchet just in time for the heavens to open. 
Sod that; it can wait. I'll take the starter motor off, clean and lube it on my next day off.
Sod that; it can wait. I'll take the starter motor off, clean and lube it on my next day off.
Hmmmm, as part of my procrastination reduction resolution this year I thought I'd get a look at the starter motor today before work.
Starter motor removal is the the only job on a Fiat Panda that's troublesome. Unless you don't mind crawling about under the car to reach the bottom bolt or slashing your fingers open on the sharp loom holder under the inlet manifold that is.
Once off the starter motor shaft was covered in a thin layer of rust and properly stuck. So with a bit of WD40 and a screw driver under the sprocket...
...I teased the sprocket free and cleaned the shaft before testing it with a jump pack...
...all was well. I refitted the starter motor as it was getting dark, reconnected the battery and now I have no obvious electrical output whatsoever apart from the dashboard clock. Oh well that will give me something to do tomorrow at least.
Last night was the most boring night of the year unless you like dealing with drunk people setting fireworks off at all hours. So I decided to watch all four Taxi films back to back between jobs.
Then I spotted this...
...fair to say my respect for Luc Besson and his work has gone down a notch.
All the best for 2013 Rob.
Starter motor removal is the the only job on a Fiat Panda that's troublesome. Unless you don't mind crawling about under the car to reach the bottom bolt or slashing your fingers open on the sharp loom holder under the inlet manifold that is.
Once off the starter motor shaft was covered in a thin layer of rust and properly stuck. So with a bit of WD40 and a screw driver under the sprocket...
...I teased the sprocket free and cleaned the shaft before testing it with a jump pack...
...all was well. I refitted the starter motor as it was getting dark, reconnected the battery and now I have no obvious electrical output whatsoever apart from the dashboard clock. Oh well that will give me something to do tomorrow at least.
Last night was the most boring night of the year unless you like dealing with drunk people setting fireworks off at all hours. So I decided to watch all four Taxi films back to back between jobs.
Then I spotted this...
...fair to say my respect for Luc Besson and his work has gone down a notch.
All the best for 2013 Rob.
Edited by Liquid Knight on Tuesday 1st January 17:14
I left the battery disconnected as I had no idea what the electrical fault was I didn't was the car to catch fire whilst waiting for further investigation.
As I had removed the starter motor my first thought was the earth strap at the back of the engine needing to be cleaned or even replaced, then I'd check the main fuses, relays and so on until I found the problem.
First off I reconnected the battery and tried the key to see if that would give me a clue as to what the problem was. The car started first turn of the key. Faultlessly. So I reassembled the air box and tried the car again and she's purring like a FIRE engine'd kitten again. I guess it was a bit of muck on the battery terminal that was cleaned off by removing and replacing it a couple of times.
Still while I was under the car the other day I did spot a bit of welding I had missed so need to get that done for the M.O.T that will hopefully be next weekend.
I may need the car soon as the company I work for has lost the contract at the site I work at so I may need to drive further afield soon. I'll use the Fantasia until my insurance miles are used up and get something cheap or have the other Panda ready by then.
As I had removed the starter motor my first thought was the earth strap at the back of the engine needing to be cleaned or even replaced, then I'd check the main fuses, relays and so on until I found the problem.
First off I reconnected the battery and tried the key to see if that would give me a clue as to what the problem was. The car started first turn of the key. Faultlessly. So I reassembled the air box and tried the car again and she's purring like a FIRE engine'd kitten again. I guess it was a bit of muck on the battery terminal that was cleaned off by removing and replacing it a couple of times.
Still while I was under the car the other day I did spot a bit of welding I had missed so need to get that done for the M.O.T that will hopefully be next weekend.
I may need the car soon as the company I work for has lost the contract at the site I work at so I may need to drive further afield soon. I'll use the Fantasia until my insurance miles are used up and get something cheap or have the other Panda ready by then.
Today I wanted to get the little bit of welding I noticed done and it is. So as far as I can tell the Fantasia is ready for M.O.T
Just one thing. I leaned on the car and a chunk of arch held in with filler fell off.
So this has been added to my watch list...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220967848109?ssPageName=...
...for when I get a decent job/win the lotto/sell a kidney/etc.
Following my adventures with starter motors I wanted to tackle the slow turning Franken-Fiat engine and find out why the belt slipped.
Without any inlet manifold and stuff in the way to cut your fingers open removing the starter was a much easier task...
...I did a bit of digging about and tested the three Fiat starter motors to see which one turned the fastest. Grande Punto, Cinquecento Sporting or Panda 1000. I think the Panda 750 starter went with the engine...
...and the winner is...
...the Panda 1000 one. Now fitted I reconnected the battery and it turned over a little quicker and died. So now the battery is on charge and I set about tuning the engine over at the crank to see what was moving about to throw the belt. Where I had welded the inside of the old pulley into the the new one there were a few spots of weld that weren't quite flat. So I took a grinder to it...
...refitted it and the belt runs straight and true now.
Still slow turning though I think it could be because there's limited oil in the crank bearings where the engine has been put together and stood. I'll pop the spark plugs out and crank the engine over (hopefully faster) to get the oil flowing and then try to restart the car later.
Back to work tomorrow and my transition day is Tuesday so at least the battery will be fully charged by then.
Just one thing. I leaned on the car and a chunk of arch held in with filler fell off.
So this has been added to my watch list...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220967848109?ssPageName=...
...for when I get a decent job/win the lotto/sell a kidney/etc.
Following my adventures with starter motors I wanted to tackle the slow turning Franken-Fiat engine and find out why the belt slipped.
Without any inlet manifold and stuff in the way to cut your fingers open removing the starter was a much easier task...
...I did a bit of digging about and tested the three Fiat starter motors to see which one turned the fastest. Grande Punto, Cinquecento Sporting or Panda 1000. I think the Panda 750 starter went with the engine...
...and the winner is...
...the Panda 1000 one. Now fitted I reconnected the battery and it turned over a little quicker and died. So now the battery is on charge and I set about tuning the engine over at the crank to see what was moving about to throw the belt. Where I had welded the inside of the old pulley into the the new one there were a few spots of weld that weren't quite flat. So I took a grinder to it...
...refitted it and the belt runs straight and true now.
Still slow turning though I think it could be because there's limited oil in the crank bearings where the engine has been put together and stood. I'll pop the spark plugs out and crank the engine over (hopefully faster) to get the oil flowing and then try to restart the car later.
Back to work tomorrow and my transition day is Tuesday so at least the battery will be fully charged by then.
FrankenFiat CSI
Today I wanted to get to the bottom of my slow tuning hybrid engine issues so as promised I whipped the plugs out and turned the best over. Even with a little help from a friend...
...the engine turned a little faster but nowhere near as quick as it should be. I removed the cam' cover to see if oil was reaching the top half of the engine. Dry as a bone with only the grease I'd put in the cam' shims lubricating the top half of the engine.
What could cause this? Knackered oil pump, head gasket on the wrong way blocking the channels or the pick up pipe isn't long enough. I quickly took the head off to see if the gasket was the cause. Nope.
I connected the earth strap to the engine mount and turned it over again. Still slow and there was no oil from being blown out of the block at all. The bores are perfect and the crank bearings were fine when I put the sump on so it's either the pick up pipe or the pump.
The Fantasia was performing well so I tuned the engine off and set about replacing the cam cover gasket as it was losing a little oil and oil leaks are another flavor of the month with M.O.T testers.
Obviously I'd clean the cam cover while it was off.
Went to start the car and it was the same as before. Completely dead apart from the permanent live circuit (horn, clock, stereo and hazard lights). I put it off last time because it had fixed itself but there was no way to avoid it this time. I jacked the car up, took the terminal from the back of the starter motor, cleaned it, put it back on and tried again. Still nothing only this time when I touched the horn the entire dashboard lit up including fuel and temperature gauges. I tried the secondary earth strap from the red Panda. Same lack of result. Next I took the battery terminals off, cleaned those and put them back on after relocating the stereo earth. Still nothing. So I took the live terminals from the starter motor, cleaned them and as I was putting them back this...
...happened.
Just as well I have a couple of spare starter motors eh?
Where are scrap values at these days?
Today I wanted to get to the bottom of my slow tuning hybrid engine issues so as promised I whipped the plugs out and turned the best over. Even with a little help from a friend...
...the engine turned a little faster but nowhere near as quick as it should be. I removed the cam' cover to see if oil was reaching the top half of the engine. Dry as a bone with only the grease I'd put in the cam' shims lubricating the top half of the engine.
What could cause this? Knackered oil pump, head gasket on the wrong way blocking the channels or the pick up pipe isn't long enough. I quickly took the head off to see if the gasket was the cause. Nope.
I connected the earth strap to the engine mount and turned it over again. Still slow and there was no oil from being blown out of the block at all. The bores are perfect and the crank bearings were fine when I put the sump on so it's either the pick up pipe or the pump.
The Fantasia was performing well so I tuned the engine off and set about replacing the cam cover gasket as it was losing a little oil and oil leaks are another flavor of the month with M.O.T testers.
Obviously I'd clean the cam cover while it was off.
Went to start the car and it was the same as before. Completely dead apart from the permanent live circuit (horn, clock, stereo and hazard lights). I put it off last time because it had fixed itself but there was no way to avoid it this time. I jacked the car up, took the terminal from the back of the starter motor, cleaned it, put it back on and tried again. Still nothing only this time when I touched the horn the entire dashboard lit up including fuel and temperature gauges. I tried the secondary earth strap from the red Panda. Same lack of result. Next I took the battery terminals off, cleaned those and put them back on after relocating the stereo earth. Still nothing. So I took the live terminals from the starter motor, cleaned them and as I was putting them back this...
...happened.
Just as well I have a couple of spare starter motors eh?
Where are scrap values at these days?
Edited by Liquid Knight on Tuesday 8th January 17:12
So; cause and effect.
Cause - Knackered starter motor.
Effect - The impression there is a major electrical fault with the car.
I think that when the relay was failing to actuate the gear in place the starter motor may have done more damage to itself. When testing this without load it was not apparent but when retrofitted to the car it was more apparent. Under stress the starter motor packed in creating a short that had me chasing around the wiring loom cleaning every terminal I could get to in the hope that it was a simple problem. Turns out it was a simple case of replacing the starter motor with the Cinquecento one and...
...fifteen stop and start tests later there are no issues whatsoever.
The first couple of starts there were interesting dashboard antics. Every light would come on and when I turned the lights on the fuel gauge would go to full and the temperature would skyrocket but this was temporary and probably due to condensation on the headlight earth point. The horn uses the same point and when I tested that a few times the other issues subsided.
Confident that the electrical gremlins have been exorcised (for now) I can think about the last of the M.O.T jobs.
This headlight...
...has passed the last five M.O.T's but I'm not happy with it and will have to go. There was no advisory sheet with the car when I bought her so all the stuff I have done has been purely from my own observations. As I'm not a qualified M.O.T tester I can't say if the car will pass or not but I can't see any reason why not. Apart from maybe putting a few miles on the new brakes perhaps. Oh and one of the tail light bulbs has burned out. It never ends!
Cause - Knackered starter motor.
Effect - The impression there is a major electrical fault with the car.
I think that when the relay was failing to actuate the gear in place the starter motor may have done more damage to itself. When testing this without load it was not apparent but when retrofitted to the car it was more apparent. Under stress the starter motor packed in creating a short that had me chasing around the wiring loom cleaning every terminal I could get to in the hope that it was a simple problem. Turns out it was a simple case of replacing the starter motor with the Cinquecento one and...
...fifteen stop and start tests later there are no issues whatsoever.
The first couple of starts there were interesting dashboard antics. Every light would come on and when I turned the lights on the fuel gauge would go to full and the temperature would skyrocket but this was temporary and probably due to condensation on the headlight earth point. The horn uses the same point and when I tested that a few times the other issues subsided.
Confident that the electrical gremlins have been exorcised (for now) I can think about the last of the M.O.T jobs.
This headlight...
...has passed the last five M.O.T's but I'm not happy with it and will have to go. There was no advisory sheet with the car when I bought her so all the stuff I have done has been purely from my own observations. As I'm not a qualified M.O.T tester I can't say if the car will pass or not but I can't see any reason why not. Apart from maybe putting a few miles on the new brakes perhaps. Oh and one of the tail light bulbs has burned out. It never ends!
Quietlybonkers said:
Liquid Knight said:
1988 the car predates emissions testing.
Furry nuffSo today I gave the car a couple of test starts and booked the M.O.T for tomorrow afternoon! I needed to get the tail light bulb changed...
..or so I thought. As soon as I opened the cluster the bloody thing started working.
I took the bulb out, cleaned it and put it back in just to be sure.
So to the front of the car. Take the spare wheel and jack out; then undo the 10mm nut that holds the washer bottle in place and move it to one side...
...so you can remove the harness and undo the three 8mm nuts that are holding the headlight in place.
Lucky this isn't J-tuner otherwise I'd be sticking an air filter there.
Once off you need to strip the indicator assembly, sidelight, loom and terminals...
...this can be problematic when the plastic headed screws have reacted to twenty or so years of Ultra Violet radiation. There are different methods of getting these screws out, some use a dremmel and small cutting disc, some make a small pilot hole and stud extractor, some use a hammer; personally I heat the end of a flat screw driver up enough to make a grove and unscrew it that way.
Plan A; remove the headlight from the red Panda and swap indicator lenses. Simple eh?
Snap!
Snap!
Crack!
Bugger!
Plan B get the spare headlight with the dis-attached reflector, smash the lens from the Fantasia headlight and use the lens from the spare.
Going well. This could actually work.
SMASH!!!
One finger has a chunk the size of a five Pence piece missing the other needs a few stitches. Haven't got time for that fuss so for the rest of the operation I was wearing a couple of plasters and a pair or marigold gloves with the cuff secured with rubber bands to stop the blood leaking.
Plan C; the same as Plan B but using the lens from the red Panda. This time using a cutting disc instead of grinding the the plastic back.
Success!
So I carefully smashed the Fantasia lens up and cleaned the channel as much as possible before cleaning...
...the joys of single life eh guys?
Top tip for you here. Use the cheapest washing up liquid you can find as the one that leave your skin as soft as your bum have moisturisers that can leave smears on your lens and/or reflectors.
Well I was wearing marigolds.
All clean and dry ready for Tiger seal (by a different name)...
...and reassembly...
...another couple of top tips for you, I used a hair drier on a low heat setting to make sure there wasn't any moisture in the channel and a bit of WD40 on the reflector to get rid of the smears and protect the surface from condensation later.
Good as new-ish.
Just need to leave it somewhere warm, dry and safe until the morning...
...and the Fantasia is ready for M.O.T
Gulp!
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