Alfa 4C - the reality?????

[stephen300o]

errek72 said:

DeltonaS said:

8c mistake ??

It may not be the fastest or best handling car but it's one of the most beautifull cars ever made, with a great engine, a cf body, a good gearbox and it's relatively light (certainly in comprison with anything from Aston Martin f.e.).

I hope Alfa will make some more mistakes like the 8c in the future.

And another victim of the great British love affair with their car journo's. Clarkson said the 8C drives pants so in Britain it is now universally seen as 'a mistake'. No doubt lesser Gods echhoed him in reviews. Clarkson drives a technically identical 8C rebodied by Touring and proclaims it a miracle of roadholding. Contradicting much?

It was built the wrong scale for an Alfa, ill handling, heavy and ugly.
Not because Jeremy told me so.. *wink*

Edited by stephen300o on Thursday 24th April 09:07

[Dblue]

The 8C is no mistake, its one of the most beautiful cars ever made IMO,

Sounds wonderful too.

Also a rather sound investment as they command pretty much their original price second hand even now.

But its probably not quite as good a steer as the Ferrari its based on in extremis. Who cares when it looks like that.

You lot are all far far too sensitive.

[errek72]

stephen300o said:

It was built the wrong scale for an Alfa, ill handling, heavy and ugly.
Not because Jeremy told me so.. *wink*

Edited by stephen300o on Thursday 24th April 09:07

Heavy? Full carbon body. Power-to-weight of an 911 RS. Shorter brake distance than a Veyron...

[errek72]

Alfahorn said:

errek72 - I don't know why you bother to continue to defend Alfa on here. I've given up, let people believe what they want to believe. I've no doubt you'll be very happy with the car, which must be imminent now?

If people would rather allow their opinions to be formed by journalists than through their own experiences that's up to them.

Perhaps read again. In my posts I am not defending Alfa. I have long given up on that. Either you like the cars or not.
I am criticising the almighty sons of God at EVO and their like. Who wrote lies as proven by themselves by contradicting themselves constantly.
Not only about Alfa btw.
I cannot stand for beying lied to. Plus they owe me ten quid.

[heebeegeetee]

Alfahorn said:

If people would rather allow their opinions to be formed by journalists than through their own experiences that's up to them.

Why would you prefer the opinion of someone who doesn't have an ounce of the experience of the journalists? I mean, there is no way of knowing if the owner can drive or not, whereas we can see the exploits of the journos on a regular basis.

errek72 said:

Perhaps read again. In my posts I am not defending Alfa. I have long given up on that. Either you like the cars or not.
I am criticising the almighty sons of God at EVO and their like. Who wrote lies as proven by themselves by contradicting themselves constantly.
Not only about Alfa btw.
I cannot stand for beying lied to. Plus they owe me ten quid.

What I imagine has happened, is that Alfa have flown a large number of journalists over to their test track and given them a number of cars for them to drive, and journalists have reported back in good faith.

Then at another time, at another location, possibly in another country, a journalist has driven another example of the same model and again reported back in good faith.

If there is a discrepancy between the two examples of the car then that is a matter for the manufacturer or importer, not for the journalist.

This has gone on for ever and it surprises me how people are still desperate to shoot the messenger boy. Indeed, hasn't Chris Harris recently got himself into trouble with Ferrari for explaining how the press cars always drive better than the showroom cars?

[stephen300o]

errek72 said:

stephen300o said:

It was built the wrong scale for an Alfa, ill handling, heavy and ugly.
Not because Jeremy told me so.. *wink*

Edited by stephen300o on Thursday 24th April 09:07

Heavy? Full carbon body. Power-to-weight of an 911 RS. Shorter brake distance than a Veyron...

Still around 1600kg not overly svelt, I feel they missed the mark with that car overall.

Looks are more subjective, I don't see beauty there.

But I digress, this about the 4c, and I hope it at least pushes other manufacturers to do similar with light weight and little punchy engines.

[errek72]

heebeegeetee said:

Why would you prefer the opinion of someone who doesn't have an ounce of the experience of the journalists?

How do you know that? Divine intuition?

heebeegeetee said:

I mean, there is no way of knowing if the owner can drive or not

Right. So you don't know. So why disregard any opinion other than journo's?

heebeegeetee said:

whereas we can see the exploits of the journos on a regular basis.

What 'exploits' that be? Exactly which race have they won? Le Mans? BTTC? DTM? At which accredited testing facility involved in chassis development or succesful competition outfit do they work?

Or is it that they just write about cars in mags? That makes their opinion the end-all be-all? Amazing that. Sweet dreams.

[Alfahorn]

errek72 said:

Alfahorn said:

errek72 - I don't know why you bother to continue to defend Alfa on here. I've given up, let people believe what they want to believe. I've no doubt you'll be very happy with the car, which must be imminent now?

If people would rather allow their opinions to be formed by journalists than through their own experiences that's up to them.

Perhaps read again. In my posts I am not defending Alfa. I have long given up on that. Either you like the cars or not.
I am criticising the almighty sons of God at EVO and their like. Who wrote lies as proven by themselves by contradicting themselves constantly.
Not only about Alfa btw.
I cannot stand for beying lied to. Plus they owe me ten quid.

I'm not being critical of you, I just think your wasting your time against some keyboard warriors who do not wish to form their own opinions because it's easier to rehash someone elses. By the same token I do think the tone of your correspondence on here is defensive and to be fair I agree with most of it. It may not be your intention to be defensive but that is how it comes across.

[Alfahorn]

heebeegeetee said:

Alfahorn said:

If people would rather allow their opinions to be formed by journalists than through their own experiences that's up to them.

Why would you prefer the opinion of someone who doesn't have an ounce of the experience of the journalists? I mean, there is no way of knowing if the owner can drive or not, whereas we can see the exploits of the journos on a regular basis.

errek72 said:

Perhaps read again. In my posts I am not defending Alfa. I have long given up on that. Either you like the cars or not.
I am criticising the almighty sons of God at EVO and their like. Who wrote lies as proven by themselves by contradicting themselves constantly.
Not only about Alfa btw.
I cannot stand for beying lied to. Plus they owe me ten quid.

What I imagine has happened, is that Alfa have flown a large number of journalists over to their test track and given them a number of cars for them to drive, and journalists have reported back in good faith.

Then at another time, at another location, possibly in another country, a journalist has driven another example of the same model and again reported back in good faith.

If there is a discrepancy between the two examples of the car then that is a matter for the manufacturer or importer, not for the journalist.

This has gone on for ever and it surprises me how people are still desperate to shoot the messenger boy. Indeed, hasn't Chris Harris recently got himself into trouble with Ferrari for explaining how the press cars always drive better than the showroom cars?

You're not the messenger though are you? You're just rehashing what you heard someone else say. As I said, If that's good enough for you so be it. I've no interest in arguing the point. It's your prerogative at the end of the day. It makes no odds to me if you like the 4C or not.

[errek72]

Alfahorn said:

I'm not being critical of you, I just think your wasting your time against some keyboard warriors who do not wish to form their own opinions because it's easier to rehash someone elses. By the same token I do think the tone of your correspondence on here is defensive and to be fair I agree with most of it. It may not be your intention to be defensive but that is how it comes across.

OK, point taken, I'll leave it.

On the car itself -not sure if I'm allowed to say this here- it is a dream and seems to get better each time I drive it. The only possible issue would be ground clearance. Apart from that it simply is a proper Alfa in steering, ride, handling, agility... but most importantly it is immense fun :biggrin:

[heebeegeetee]

errek72 said:

What 'exploits' that be? Exactly which race have they won? Le Mans? BTTC? DTM? At which accredited testing facility involved in chassis development or succesful competition outfit do they work?

Or is it that they just write about cars in mags? That makes their opinion the end-all be-all? Amazing that. Sweet dreams.

You don't need to go that far. Harrises near win at The Revival was astonishing, imo. You have to be a very good driver indeed to win at The Revival, especially in the TT. Then there was Sutcliffe's astonishing performance in Jenson Button's F1 car.

I can tell you from experience, that the average road car driver would not win (or even shine) in a competitive kart race.

Honestly, the average private owner would be hugely deluded if they feel they've learned anything from driving road cars. Driving road cars is easy, and the opportunities to drive properly fast on the public roads is highly limited. How many of us get the opportunity to take a group of similar cars to Wales or the French Alps or whatever and then get to jump in and out of them and give them a good caning, and then get to do so year after year after year?

I had an astonishing experience at a Lotus Elise do at Hethel a few years back, when I had 3 laps in the passenger seat of a standard 111R driven by one of the factory test drivers, at a track day for Elises. All the keen Elise owners were out, with modified cars in abundance, plus a couple of 340Rs and a 11-2 etc, and the sheer *speed* at which 'my' professional driver was able to pass *all* of them - sometimes like they were literally standing still - was astonishing, humbling and rather deeply humiliating, knowing as I did that I'd be one of those enthusiasts too were I there with an Elise.

I honestly think there is a gulf between the average enthusiast and the professional driver - there's certainly an enormous gulf in expereince, and you can't buy experience.

[Alfahorn]

errek72 said:

OK, point taken, I'll leave it.

On the car itself -not sure if I'm allowed to say this here- it is a dream and seems to get better each time I drive it. The only possible issue would be ground clearance. Apart from that it simply is a proper Alfa in steering, ride, handling, agility... but most importantly it is immense fun :biggrin:

Lovely, very lovely. You really need to put it in the Readers Cars section.

How are you getting on with TCT? I would love to see how the TCT experience in the 4C compares to that of my Giulietta TCT.

[errek72]

Alfahorn said:

Lovely, very lovely. You really need to put it in the Readers Cars section.

How are you getting on with TCT? I would love to see how the TCT experience in the 4C compares to that of my Giulietta TCT.

Thanks, appreciate it.

To be honest the TCT is what worried me most. I had never driven one, nor any kind of auto box. But actually it turned out to be really neat. My next Alfa will be ordered with one. You can shuffle around town or warm the car up perfectly in automatic. Slow in normal mode, a bit laggy, which in combination with low revs can make the turbo lag seem bigger than it is. In Dynamic mode the auto mode gets pretty snappy. Put it in in manual with high revs and it is just instant. I swear sometimes I wonder if I even moved my finger. Also it learns. I had 500km on the clock, then did 500km hooning in one weekend, and the car seemed transformed. Much quicker changes, sometimes brutal when provoked, more throttle blips and crackles between gears. A riot. Not going back to manual - although I still have my old cars for that

[otolith]

A journalist's opinion may be useful in forming a shortlist, and it's certainly a way of obtaining an opinion on a car one has not driven - but ultimately the only subjective opinion of any importance at all is one's own. Even an objective measurement may be irrelevant - it doesn't matter that Sutcliffe is faster round a track in car A than in car B if a less skilled driver finds that his lack of skill reverses the order.

[Dblue]

heebeegeetee said:

errek72 said:

What 'exploits' that be? Exactly which race have they won? Le Mans? BTTC? DTM? At which accredited testing facility involved in chassis development or succesful competition outfit do they work?

Or is it that they just write about cars in mags? That makes their opinion the end-all be-all? Amazing that. Sweet dreams.

You don't need to go that far. Harrises near win at The Revival was astonishing, imo. You have to be a very good driver indeed to win at The Revival, especially in the TT. Then there was Sutcliffe's astonishing performance in Jenson Button's F1 car.

I can tell you from experience, that the average road car driver would not win (or even shine) in a competitive kart race.

Honestly, the average private owner would be hugely deluded if they feel they've learned anything from driving road cars. Driving road cars is easy, and the opportunities to drive properly fast on the public roads is highly limited. How many of us get the opportunity to take a group of similar cars to Wales or the French Alps or whatever and then get to jump in and out of them and give them a good caning, and then get to do so year after year after year?

I had an astonishing experience at a Lotus Elise do at Hethel a few years back, when I had 3 laps in the passenger seat of a standard 111R driven by one of the factory test drivers, at a track day for Elises. All the keen Elise owners were out, with modified cars in abundance, plus a couple of 340Rs and a 11-2 etc, and the sheer *speed* at which 'my' professional driver was able to pass *all* of them - sometimes like they were literally standing still - was astonishing, humbling and rather deeply humiliating, knowing as I did that I'd be one of those enthusiasts too were I there with an Elise.

I honestly think there is a gulf between the average enthusiast and the professional driver - there's certainly an enormous gulf in expereince, and you can't buy experience.

+1

[Alfahorn]

errek72 said:

Alfahorn said:

Lovely, very lovely. You really need to put it in the Readers Cars section.

How are you getting on with TCT? I would love to see how the TCT experience in the 4C compares to that of my Giulietta TCT.

Thanks, appreciate it.

To be honest the TCT is what worried me most. I had never driven one, nor any kind of auto box. But actually it turned out to be really neat. My next Alfa will be ordered with one. You can shuffle around town or warm the car up perfectly in automatic. Slow in normal mode, a bit laggy, which in combination with low revs can make the turbo lag seem bigger than it is. In Dynamic mode the auto mode gets pretty snappy. Put it in in manual with high revs and it is just instant. I swear sometimes I wonder if I even moved my finger. Also it learns. I had 500km on the clock, then did 500km hooning in one weekend, and the car seemed transformed. Much quicker changes, sometimes brutal when provoked, more throttle blips and crackles between gears. A riot. Not going back to manual - although I still have my old cars for that

Yep, your experiences with the TCT pretty much mirror my own in the Giulietta. Although, my car is diesel so doesn't pop and crackle....lol

You're right, the ECU does learn your driving style and as a result the gears change accordingly in auto. Personally, I'm a bit lazy and tend to drive to work normal and auto and revert to a Dynamic on the way home. I tend to leave it in auto and override the auto with the paddles. My 2012 car has covered 42,000 miles and so far I'm very pleased with it.

[thegreenhell]

heebeegeetee said:

errek72 said:

What 'exploits' that be? Exactly which race have they won? Le Mans? BTTC? DTM? At which accredited testing facility involved in chassis development or succesful competition outfit do they work?

Or is it that they just write about cars in mags? That makes their opinion the end-all be-all? Amazing that. Sweet dreams.

You don't need to go that far. Harrises near win at The Revival was astonishing, imo. You have to be a very good driver indeed to win at The Revival, especially in the TT. Then there was Sutcliffe's astonishing performance in Jenson Button's F1 car.

I can tell you from experience, that the average road car driver would not win (or even shine) in a competitive kart race.

Honestly, the average private owner would be hugely deluded if they feel they've learned anything from driving road cars. Driving road cars is easy, and the opportunities to drive properly fast on the public roads is highly limited. How many of us get the opportunity to take a group of similar cars to Wales or the French Alps or whatever and then get to jump in and out of them and give them a good caning, and then get to do so year after year after year?

I had an astonishing experience at a Lotus Elise do at Hethel a few years back, when I had 3 laps in the passenger seat of a standard 111R driven by one of the factory test drivers, at a track day for Elises. All the keen Elise owners were out, with modified cars in abundance, plus a couple of 340Rs and a 11-2 etc, and the sheer *speed* at which 'my' professional driver was able to pass *all* of them - sometimes like they were literally standing still - was astonishing, humbling and rather deeply humiliating, knowing as I did that I'd be one of those enthusiasts too were I there with an Elise.

I honestly think there is a gulf between the average enthusiast and the professional driver - there's certainly an enormous gulf in expereince, and you can't buy experience.

Dickie Meaden seems to be a regular in the factory Aston Martin squad at the Nurburgring 24H, and is often invited to race other cars as well, a privilege he wouldn't enjoy if he wasn't a very talented driver. John Barker, co-founder of Evo, has also raced in the N24 in an Audi R8LMS, as has Roger Green in a Lotus Exige. In fact John Barker is no longer at Evo because he was head-hunted to work for an automotive consultancy as a professional vehicle and tyre tester, and I believe works extensively with Jaguar doing just that.

Also, with the rapid rise in popularity of youtube video roadtests, it is very easy to see who can actually pedal a car properly. These guys can no longer just hide behind some purple prose and glossy photos in a magazine, as they would very quickly be shown up once the video camera started rolling.

[thegreenhell]

errek72 said:

On the car itself -not sure if I'm allowed to say this here- it is a dream and seems to get better each time I drive it. The only possible issue would be ground clearance. Apart from that it simply is a proper Alfa in steering, ride, handling, agility... but most importantly it is immense fun :biggrin:

Beautiful car, Errek. I am genuinely envious.

[Fantuzzi]

errek72 said:

stephen300o said:

It was built the wrong scale for an Alfa, ill handling, heavy and ugly.
Not because Jeremy told me so.. *wink*

Edited by stephen300o on Thursday 24th April 09:07

Heavy? Full carbon body.

Full carbon = 1585kg. Wow Chiti would be proud...

Even heavier than the AMV8 for fk sake.

Evo liked it though...

[errek72]

thegreenhell said:

Beautiful car, Errek. I am genuinely envious.

Cheers