Alfa 4C - the reality?????
Discussion
Fantuzzi said:
Im surprised to hear that about the s1, I haven't heard any owners say that, what tires where you running out of interest?
Tyres were the Lotus-spec Advans (195 width fronts). Virtually all the Elises have low speed understeer, unless perhaps they have a very aggressive geo. So for slow/tight corners there is always the need to turn in under brakes, i.e. easing off the brakes but still on them as you turn in. I found it much more neutral at high speed though - this photo is at around 85-90mph at Goodwood and the front wheels are pretty much straight ahead.
Just to open the view a bit : I speak German, English, Dutch and French. I can also read Swedish, Italian and Spanish. Of all the information on the written internet, youtube and car mags, this stands out
:
- Euro magazines vary from critically positive to ecstatic. (Actually the Italians are not the ecstatic ones. Do not underestimate the regional animosity and remember that an Alfa Romeo "ex-Milano" is now being built in Bologna...)
- Owner reviews on the net forums are positive to hilarious : "I haven't driven her for four hours now...", "the hair on my arms have been standing upright for the last two days", "I set off a car alarm with the exhaust in an underground parking" etc etc. Some mild comment to the steering, which can be taken positive or negative, ranging from "I am afraid of changing the channel on the radio" to "my M3 now feels totally numb" and "better than my 348". One owner got his weighed to find it weighs in over 1000kg. Not that he seems to mind much.
- Freelancers that have hedged their bets and spread their area of work over the internet and are not geographically tied -Harris comes to mind- are critical but overall positive.
- Traditional UK car press have first rejoiced... then after a few weeks the hatches came out. Previous reviews are completely contradicted and the car is basically written off. Also there seems to be some kind of fetish with comparing it to the 400 (300?) kg heavier (and in most markets significantly more expensive) Porsche Cayman, concluding that is the better car because it is fast AND comfy. Make of that what you will. I think it misses the point so comprehensively -and apparently only with UK press?- that I cannot help wonder the sanity, capability or integrity of those peddling that point.
Think of how that would go down comparing an Elise S to a Cayman, with that conclusion?
:
- Euro magazines vary from critically positive to ecstatic. (Actually the Italians are not the ecstatic ones. Do not underestimate the regional animosity and remember that an Alfa Romeo "ex-Milano" is now being built in Bologna...)
- Owner reviews on the net forums are positive to hilarious : "I haven't driven her for four hours now...", "the hair on my arms have been standing upright for the last two days", "I set off a car alarm with the exhaust in an underground parking" etc etc. Some mild comment to the steering, which can be taken positive or negative, ranging from "I am afraid of changing the channel on the radio" to "my M3 now feels totally numb" and "better than my 348". One owner got his weighed to find it weighs in over 1000kg. Not that he seems to mind much.
- Freelancers that have hedged their bets and spread their area of work over the internet and are not geographically tied -Harris comes to mind- are critical but overall positive.
- Traditional UK car press have first rejoiced... then after a few weeks the hatches came out. Previous reviews are completely contradicted and the car is basically written off. Also there seems to be some kind of fetish with comparing it to the 400 (300?) kg heavier (and in most markets significantly more expensive) Porsche Cayman, concluding that is the better car because it is fast AND comfy. Make of that what you will. I think it misses the point so comprehensively -and apparently only with UK press?- that I cannot help wonder the sanity, capability or integrity of those peddling that point.
Think of how that would go down comparing an Elise S to a Cayman, with that conclusion?
You're absolutely right, Lotus set the bog standard car to under steer deliberately as the average guy/girl off the street who sees the nice Elise and buys it isn't a driving god, doesn't know how to handle the car in a drift and would kill themselves if it was set up to over steer at slow speeds.
Under steer is the safer bet with the general motoring public who don't track their cars.
Lotus would, of course, set the car up differently if asked* or if there was a sportier version like the 135r and such like it would come as standard but the buyer would be made aware of the sportier handling and would more likely be a driving enthusiast.
My instructor at Lotus tried this at the end of the fast straight and was less successful!
I found it much more neutral at high speed though - this photo is at around 85-90mph at Goodwood and the front wheels are pretty much straight ahead.
Under steer is the safer bet with the general motoring public who don't track their cars.
Lotus would, of course, set the car up differently if asked* or if there was a sportier version like the 135r and such like it would come as standard but the buyer would be made aware of the sportier handling and would more likely be a driving enthusiast.
- Clarkson interviewed Gavan Kershaw on TG once about the new standard S2 Elise (I believe) and after he ragged the car round the test track commented on the over steer, Kershaw said it was deliberate but with wider front tyres (next width up) it could be dialled out.
My instructor at Lotus tried this at the end of the fast straight and was less successful!
braddo said:
Fantuzzi said:
Im surprised to hear that about the s1, I haven't heard any owners say that, what tires where you running out of interest?
Tyres were the Lotus-spec Advans (195 width fronts). Virtually all the Elises have low speed understeer, unless perhaps they have a very aggressive geo. So for slow/tight corners there is always the need to turn in under brakes, i.e. easing off the brakes but still on them as you turn in. I found it much more neutral at high speed though - this photo is at around 85-90mph at Goodwood and the front wheels are pretty much straight ahead.
braddo said:
Fantuzzi said:
Im surprised to hear that about the s1, I haven't heard any owners say that, what tires where you running out of interest?
Tyres were the Lotus-spec Advans (195 width fronts). Virtually all the Elises have low speed understeer, unless perhaps they have a very aggressive geo. So for slow/tight corners there is always the need to turn in under brakes, i.e. easing off the brakes but still on them as you turn in. I found it much more neutral at high speed though - this photo is at around 85-90mph at Goodwood and the front wheels are pretty much straight ahead.
Was it track work that it showed or on the road as well?
Im looking to get a s1 in the next year or so, so that's the reason for my interest! Was your s1 still on the konis or was it the s2 blistiens?
errek72 said:
Just to open the view a bit : I speak German, English, Dutch and French. I can also read Swedish, Italian and Spanish. Of all the information on the written internet, youtube and car mags, this stands out
:
- Euro magazines vary from critically positive to ecstatic. (Actually the Italians are not the ecstatic ones. Do not underestimate the regional animosity and remember that an Alfa Romeo "ex-Milano" is now being built in Bologna...)
- Owner reviews on the net forums are positive to hilarious : "I haven't driven her for four hours now...", "the hair on my arms have been standing upright for the last two days", "I set off a car alarm with the exhaust in an underground parking" etc etc. Some mild comment to the steering, which can be taken positive or negative, ranging from "I am afraid of changing the channel on the radio" to "my M3 now feels totally numb" and "better than my 348". One owner got his weighed to find it weighs in over 1000kg. Not that he seems to mind much.
- Freelancers that have hedged their bets and spread their area of work over the internet and are not geographically tied -Harris comes to mind- are critical but overall positive.
- Traditional UK car press have first rejoiced... then after a few weeks the hatches came out. Previous reviews are completely contradicted and the car is basically written off. Also there seems to be some kind of fetish with comparing it to the 400 (300?) kg heavier (and in most markets significantly more expensive) Porsche Cayman, concluding that is the better car because it is fast AND comfy. Make of that what you will. I think it misses the point so comprehensively -and apparently only with UK press?- that I cannot help wonder the sanity, capability or integrity of those peddling that point.
Think of how that would go down comparing an Elise S to a Cayman, with that conclusion?
I understand what you mean between the Cayman vs elise, although evo did a Elise S vs Boxster S test last year, which worked because of the top off quality and the price was far closer than the Cayman.:
- Euro magazines vary from critically positive to ecstatic. (Actually the Italians are not the ecstatic ones. Do not underestimate the regional animosity and remember that an Alfa Romeo "ex-Milano" is now being built in Bologna...)
- Owner reviews on the net forums are positive to hilarious : "I haven't driven her for four hours now...", "the hair on my arms have been standing upright for the last two days", "I set off a car alarm with the exhaust in an underground parking" etc etc. Some mild comment to the steering, which can be taken positive or negative, ranging from "I am afraid of changing the channel on the radio" to "my M3 now feels totally numb" and "better than my 348". One owner got his weighed to find it weighs in over 1000kg. Not that he seems to mind much.
- Freelancers that have hedged their bets and spread their area of work over the internet and are not geographically tied -Harris comes to mind- are critical but overall positive.
- Traditional UK car press have first rejoiced... then after a few weeks the hatches came out. Previous reviews are completely contradicted and the car is basically written off. Also there seems to be some kind of fetish with comparing it to the 400 (300?) kg heavier (and in most markets significantly more expensive) Porsche Cayman, concluding that is the better car because it is fast AND comfy. Make of that what you will. I think it misses the point so comprehensively -and apparently only with UK press?- that I cannot help wonder the sanity, capability or integrity of those peddling that point.
Think of how that would go down comparing an Elise S to a Cayman, with that conclusion?
Most of the 'Cayman is better' comments seemed to be linked to the steering causing a lack of confidence when pushed - where as the Cayman is far better composed in faster stuff.
I think when the steering is sorted the 4c should be able to take the Caymans drivers car crown very easily indeed. Well I hope it will!
On the weight thing, wasn't some of them US spec so were around 100kg heavier due to regs, perhaps that is the reason for the heavier car?
Fantuzzi said:
Most of the 'Cayman is better' comments seemed to be linked to the steering causing a lack of confidence when pushed - where as the Cayman is far better composed in faster stuff.
I think when the steering is sorted the 4c should be able to take the Caymans drivers car crown very easily indeed. Well I hope it will!
On the weight thing, wasn't some of them US spec so were around 100kg heavier due to regs, perhaps that is the reason for the heavier car?
The owner was living / driving in the Alps, I assume the Swiss. Apparently homologation papers state a 1000kg plus weight also. Which all things considered is still pretty light. Only when the no-cost "delete" options are used, and in bog standard trim (with the "small" wheels and without the sports suspension which apparently adds about 6kg) will it get near the advertised weight it seems. Funnily enough no owner seems to care much, they speak of the car -and I quote - "like they are 12 years old and in love for the first time". I think when the steering is sorted the 4c should be able to take the Caymans drivers car crown very easily indeed. Well I hope it will!
On the weight thing, wasn't some of them US spec so were around 100kg heavier due to regs, perhaps that is the reason for the heavier car?
On the steering: the owners are not complaining either -quite the contrary- actually nobody is complaining except for the UK motoring press. On top of that apparently the waiting list is now 18 months. So I very much doubt Alfa has an itch to change anything, least of all the steering.
It seems to me that this is a car equivalent of a bull terrier. Which is exactly how my 75, GTV6 and even my 147 drove. So turns out they actually made a real Alfa. The worst thing they could have done would have been to try make it like a Porsche. There already is one. Anybody who wants one can buy it.
Not sure why though, over here in Belgium a fully specced Cayman S is the same price as a GT-R. If you really want composure, everyday driveability and speed...
errek72 said:
Fantuzzi said:
Most of the 'Cayman is better' comments seemed to be linked to the steering causing a lack of confidence when pushed - where as the Cayman is far better composed in faster stuff.
I think when the steering is sorted the 4c should be able to take the Caymans drivers car crown very easily indeed. Well I hope it will!
On the weight thing, wasn't some of them US spec so were around 100kg heavier due to regs, perhaps that is the reason for the heavier car?
The owner was living / driving in the Alps, I assume the Swiss. Apparently homologation papers state a 1000kg plus weight also. Which all things considered is still pretty light. Only when the no-cost "delete" options are used, and in bog standard trim (with the "small" wheels and without the sports suspension which apparently adds about 6kg) will it get near the advertised weight it seems. Funnily enough no owner seems to care much, they speak of the car -and I quote - "like they are 12 years old and in love for the first time". I think when the steering is sorted the 4c should be able to take the Caymans drivers car crown very easily indeed. Well I hope it will!
On the weight thing, wasn't some of them US spec so were around 100kg heavier due to regs, perhaps that is the reason for the heavier car?
On the steering: the owners are not complaining either -quite the contrary- actually nobody is complaining except for the UK motoring press. On top of that apparently the waiting list is now 18 months. So I very much doubt Alfa has an itch to change anything, least of all the steering.
It seems to me that this is a car equivalent of a bull terrier. Which is exactly how my 75, GTV6 and even my 147 drove. So turns out they actually made a real Alfa. The worst thing they could have done would have been to try make it like a Porsche. There already is one. Anybody who wants one can buy it.
Not sure why though, over here in Belgium a fully specced Cayman S is the same price as a GT-R. If you really want composure, everyday driveability and speed...
I'm just not so sure owners can be trusted to give a non bias opinion, especially not a car that has been seen as the renaissance for Alfa as a sporty brand, and Alfas are rather zealously loved and adored by their fans.
Fantuzzi said:
I'm just not so sure owners can be trusted to give a non bias opinion, especially not a car that has been seen as the renaissance for Alfa as a sporty brand, and Alfas are rather zealously loved and adored by their fans.
True enough. But with the Alfa-nut owners ecstatic, and limited supply making sure only they are lured into ownership, all is like it should be.Which leaves the question why UK journo's have the need to negatively compare it with a Cayman and nobody else has. How biased exactly is their opinion?
errek72 said:
Fantuzzi said:
I'm just not so sure owners can be trusted to give a non bias opinion, especially not a car that has been seen as the renaissance for Alfa as a sporty brand, and Alfas are rather zealously loved and adored by their fans.
True enough. But with the Alfa-nut owners ecstatic, and limited supply making sure only they are lured into ownership, all is like it should be.Which leaves the question why UK journo's have the need to negatively compare it with a Cayman and nobody else has. How biased exactly is their opinion?
Like I said I will be interested in seeing it against the Elise S, which it is pretty much identical in broad terms, 920kg, 230ish bhp, as well as performance similarities.
errek72 said:
Which leaves the question why UK journo's have the need to negatively compare it with a Cayman and nobody else has. How biased exactly is their opinion?
The Cayman is considered to be the sportscar benchmark at this price point, the 4C has the ingredients to snatch that crown.I can't speak for others but for my £45k I'd be considering either.
If the Alfa became the new yardstick for steering, chassis ability and driver interaction I'd forego the creature comforts of the heavier Cayman and revel in the delights of interacting with a 4C.
If not then that swoopy bodywork/carbon tub/low weight package isn't enough to sway me, after all, why bother with the compromises if they don't add up to a scintillating drive?
Different cars, aimed squarely at enthusiast drivers, very similar pricing, legitimate comparisons.
I see no bias.
k all to back it up. cheddar said:
errek72 said:
Which leaves the question why UK journo's have the need to negatively compare it with a Cayman and nobody else has. How biased exactly is their opinion?
The Cayman is considered to be the sportscar benchmark at this price point, the 4C has the ingredients to snatch that crown.I can't speak for others but for my £45k I'd be considering either.
If the Alfa became the new yardstick for steering, chassis ability and driver interaction I'd forego the creature comforts of the heavier Cayman and revel in the delights of interacting with a 4C.
If not then that swoopy bodywork/carbon tub/low weight package isn't enough to sway me, after all, why bother with the compromises if they don't add up to a scintillating drive?
Different cars, aimed squarely at enthusiast drivers, very similar pricing, legitimate comparisons.
I see no bias.
I think the only reason the Elise S was never really compared to the more expensive rivals is it lacked 'class', as you've said the target was different audiences, but the 4c is perhaps more of a rival to the Cayman due to its 'exotic' qualities over the elise.
There is one thing about about car journo's opinions which I feel is also worth raising: when you have driven loads of cars, you are always comparing the car you're reviewing to the best car in its class. For the buying public, it's perfectly possible they are getting in to it from something far less able. In this case, it's going to seem amazing. I know, if I got a 4C then compared to my SEAT Ibiza it would seem amazing!
I love Alfas. The Bertie is easily in my top 5 cars of all time. If I won the lottery, I would think about getting a 4C (after sourcing a Bertie) and I'm sure that it would feel pretty damn good to me. And if, in time, I did think the steering was a little slow I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to fiddle with it.
Of course it's not perfect - it's an Alfa! But we love them anyway.
I love Alfas. The Bertie is easily in my top 5 cars of all time. If I won the lottery, I would think about getting a 4C (after sourcing a Bertie) and I'm sure that it would feel pretty damn good to me. And if, in time, I did think the steering was a little slow I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to fiddle with it.
Of course it's not perfect - it's an Alfa! But we love them anyway.
With regards to it up against the elise S cheddar, this is Car magazine, not a great article - it think the 4c was reviewed earlier in the mag, but it gives a gist.
http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/ca...
http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/ca...
robsa said:
There is one thing about about car journo's opinions which I feel is also worth raising: when you have driven loads of cars, you are always comparing the car you're reviewing to the best car in its class. For the buying public, it's perfectly possible they are getting in to it from something far less able. In this case, it's going to seem amazing. I know, if I got a 4C then compared to my SEAT Ibiza it would seem amazing!
Indeed. This was my point.One of the contributors states he would go for the best powertrain/usability and looks and then picks the Cayman. Must have fried eggs for glasses, the mong!
Lotus for handling and fun.
Alfa 4c pips the Lotus for looks and the Gayman is nowhere near on either ffs
Lotus for handling and fun.
Alfa 4c pips the Lotus for looks and the Gayman is nowhere near on either ffs
Fantuzzi said:
With regards to it up against the elise S cheddar, this is Car magazine, not a great article - it think the 4c was reviewed earlier in the mag, but it gives a gist.
http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/ca...
http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/ca...
Fantuzzi said:
cheddar said:
errek72 said:
Which leaves the question why UK journo's have the need to negatively compare it with a Cayman and nobody else has. How biased exactly is their opinion?
The Cayman is considered to be the sportscar benchmark at this price point, the 4C has the ingredients to snatch that crown.Different cars, aimed squarely at enthusiast drivers, very similar pricing, legitimate comparisons.
I see no bias.
With regards to price, in my (Euro) market, the Cayman is 29% over the price of the 4C. If that is "very similar pricing", I wonder why the Cayman is not constantly compared to the Nissan GT-R, because that is about 29% more expensive as a Cayman in most countries. It may be a bit better at a lot of stuff the Cayman is supposedly good at, just a hunch there.
The 4C owners in the forums do not come from Ibiza's - strangely - but from RS', Ferrari's, M3 etc. I think they may have a bit of a comparison point. Also in contrary to journo's they actually have paid for it and live with the car. And the whole argument of "daddy knows best" is against my nature really. Notice how the really interesting journo's never say this or that is best, but always say "to my taste..." or "in my world..."?
Rumor has it there will be a Maserati badged V6-engined version. Probably priced like a loaded Cayman S. I can't help but wonder what they will compare that against. A Veyron maybe.
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