Alfa 4C - the reality?????

[cheddar]

I want to own one, I want to love them, I really do but.......

Now that it's been tested in the UK I keep reading mediocre reports from the journo's.

Too much understeer, no feel through the (unassisted) steering rack, disobedient gearbox, too much turbo lag, engine note lacks character and, most importantly, it's just not fun.

Yes, it looks brilliant and the weight/power numbers are truly impressive but it sounds like it's adding up to less than the sum of its parts.

Are there any glowing recent road test reviews out there?

[Fantuzzi]

I think you'll find some reports are better than others, but the points you've mentioned have all been raised in them - however how much attention the reviewer spent on them differs greatly.

The steering IMO, is unforgivable with a unassisted rack.

[Alfahorn]

Alfa gets panned by journo shock!

I think the best advice I can give is to try the car for yourself.

I've got that gearbox in my Alfa and as far as I'm concerned it's a revelation.

[velocemitch]

To me the best review was the one Chris Harris did on here. It seemed balanced and knowledgeable and on the whole positive.

I've never read a review yet on an Alfa which didn't criticise the steering, I think it's because on the whole Alfa steering seems to take some getting used too, it's without doubt 'different' in feel to any other make.

The understeer/oversteer issue was dealt with well by Mr Harris, he seemed to reckon Oversteer is available but only if you really really want it. Some Journo's didn't seem to be prepared (able?) to push it hard enough to get to it. I'd expect for the vast majority of us that would be the case too.

[jimmy156]

I think for 99% of real world road users this car will offer the all the pace, handling, fun and feel-good-factor that you could want for.

I have read the not-so-generous reviews, genuinely wouldn't stop me buying one if i could afford it.

[Fantuzzi]

jimmy156 said:

I think for 99% of real world road users this car will offer the all the pace, handling, fun and feel-good-factor that you could want for.

I have read the not-so-generous reviews, genuinely wouldn't stop me buying one if i could afford it.

Why though? Because it has a Alfa badge?

The elise is better to drive as a light racer, plus its 14k cheaper in supercharged S form, and the Cayman is more composed and well rounded.

I see your point on 'real world', but surely for 50k you'd want to buy the best sports car you could? Or is it just me that hates the idea of spending 50k on something that's second (if that) best?

[cheddar]

Fantuzzi said:

jimmy156 said:

I think for 99% of real world road users this car will offer the all the pace, handling, fun and feel-good-factor that you could want for.

I have read the not-so-generous reviews, genuinely wouldn't stop me buying one if i could afford it.

Why though? Because it has a Alfa badge?

The elise is better to drive as a light racer, plus its 14k cheaper in supercharged S form, and the Cayman is more composed and well rounded.

I see your point on 'real world', but surely for 50k you'd want to buy the best sports car you could? Or is it just me that hates the idea of spending 50k on something that's second (if that) best?

Fantuzzi, right now, I agree, not only about the Elise but the Cayman or even the brilliant to drive (if nothing like as desirable) GT86 - for half the money.

The stuff I've read in the latest and more relevant UK tests takes a little reading between the lines to get a real perspective but it leaves me feeling that Alfa seem to have missed the mark in the critical areas of steering, chassis dynamics, power delivery and driver interaction.

A little more exposure and neutral feedback from those in the know might paint a clearer picture. Fingers crossed.

[jimmy156]

Fantuzzi said:

I see your point on 'real world', but surely for 50k you'd want to buy the best sports car you could? Or is it just me that hates the idea of spending 50k on something that's second (if that) best?

I think I would want the £50k sports car that I want, not necessarily what the journo's say is the best. Any of the comparable cars on the market are going to be plenty quick, involving amd exciting to drive for me, so I would buy the one that hits the spot for me!

[Fantuzzi]

cheddar said:

Fantuzzi said:

jimmy156 said:

I think for 99% of real world road users this car will offer the all the pace, handling, fun and feel-good-factor that you could want for.

I have read the not-so-generous reviews, genuinely wouldn't stop me buying one if i could afford it.

Why though? Because it has a Alfa badge?

The elise is better to drive as a light racer, plus its 14k cheaper in supercharged S form, and the Cayman is more composed and well rounded.

I see your point on 'real world', but surely for 50k you'd want to buy the best sports car you could? Or is it just me that hates the idea of spending 50k on something that's second (if that) best?

Fantuzzi, right now, I agree, not only about the Elise but the Cayman or even the brilliant to drive (if nothing like as desirable) GT86 - for half the money.

The stuff I've read in the latest and more relevant UK tests takes a little reading between the lines to get a real perspective but it leaves me feeling that Alfa seem to have missed the mark in the critical areas of steering, chassis dynamics, power delivery and driver interaction.

A little more exposure and neutral feedback from those in the know might paint a clearer picture. Fingers crossed.

If you want good news, I think the 4c will get an update, and the mk2 will be ace.

If you want a new sports car for 50k, Id say find a super low mileage Cayman R, or an Elise S.

Most reviews have been positive, but its the finer details that matter as you've said, and given the price, you could get something seriously good for 50k that is rather better as a drivers car.

[anonymous-user]

Elise looks dogst now and Cayman is common and dull to look at. If I had fifty grand spare I'd give neither of those a second of consideration.

[RichB]

I really wouldn't give one moment's attention to the random jottings of motoring journalists. They are in the business of selling copy and their services nothing else. Ever since Clarkson made it big it seems the only way is to be controversial - so just ignore them and buy what you like.

Sorry Pistonheads Journos' but that's the way it is...

[Fantuzzi]

RichB said:

I really wouldn't give one moment's attention to the random jottings of motoring journalists. They are in the business of selling copy and their services nothing else. Ever since Clarkson made it big it seems the only way is to be controversial - so just ignore them and buy what you like.

Sorry Pistonheads Journos' but that's the way it is...

Motoring journalists are like any other professional, you value their experience.

At the very least journalists have driven a lot of cars, if you had a 'mate down the pub' who had driven as many cars as someone from autocar/evo/whatthefkever, you'd probably at least value their opinion given they can compare it to so many.

Out of interest in what way has motoring journalism changed since Clarkson in your eyes? Reading a lot of old reviews from various eras, it seems to me nothing has changed. The only mag I can think of that has done some rather provocative covers has been evo, but that is rather the other way than Clarksons style- all fluff and subjectivity, Evo are all about the drive not the 'character' of a car, so give less slack to crap cars, so can seem rather hard and blunt with their titles.


Honestly if you had your eyes on a new car, and EVERY mag said it was truly awful, you'd still buy it?

bks.

[Alfahorn]

Fantuzzi said:

Honestly if you had your eyes on a new car, and EVERY mag said it was truly awful, you'd still buy it?

bks.

So, basically what you're saying is. You are unable to make a purchasing decision based on your own experiences?

Have a look at the Alfa's I've owned. They've all made me very happy, according to you I'm wrong and should have bought a boring German photocopiers or something.

As you say. bks.

[Squadrone Rosso]

I'd have a Cayman S over it, sorry. Or the V6 Evora. The 4c is too much of a one trick pony.

As for the lights, hardly a work of art but they look fine in IRL.

[Fantuzzi]

Alfahorn said:

Fantuzzi said:

Honestly if you had your eyes on a new car, and EVERY mag said it was truly awful, you'd still buy it?

bks.

So, basically what you're saying is. You are unable to make a purchasing decision based on your own experiences?

Have a look at the Alfa's I've owned. They've all made me very happy, according to you I'm wrong and should have bought a boring German photocopiers or something.

As you say. bks.

Well given the 'I buy what I like regardless of general opinion' I'm guessing the person wouldn't have bothered to test the 4c back to back to its rivals to see for themselves.

If someone said they'd driven all the rivals and disagreed with the general consensus , then that's different, what I object to is the idea that you ignore that the car press completely as a guide.

With regard to your garage, if you drove the 'boring German' cars and thought the Alfa's were better, then that's your opinion, if you didn't bother, then you might have been missing out on a better car for the money. And that wouldn't make me happy - I want the best car to drive.

I don't give a fk about stereotypes, 'all German cars are boring' 'all Italian cars have soul' its bks, you buy the best car to drive you can - if you love driving. Why do I like Italian cars? Because the lighter cars appeal to me, and that's what Abarth, Fiat, Alfa Romeo did best - light racey cars.

I love Alfa Romeo because they made some amazing drivers cars, go read early reviews of the Guilia vs BMW's sporting attempts, Alfa won, Alfa was the drivers choice at that time - but not anymore. I think its a little pathetic hanging on to the mythos that Clarkson and the likes claims everything with a basilisk on the front will be the best car to get your kicks in. They aren't, people who love cars and know their history, and so badly want Alfa to have a come back and challenge the canon of modern drivers cars - that's why the 4c is such a disappointment. Because when the Cayman S' electric power steering is seen as better against a non assisted unit - you cant help feeling some people in control really didn't give too much of a fk about the 4C.

[Funk]

I think that from a standing start, Alfa have produced a fantastic car for a 'first go'. I think they should be applauded for being one of the few manufacturers to embrace the concept of a car that is light, stiff and clearly intended for the driver in us. Have they got it perfect straight away? Possibly not, but I'll wager they have a lot of people taking notes and feedback and although its definitely not in the 'affordable' category for most, I'm glad that Alfa still want to please the driving enthusiasts out there.

Let's hope they , along with Toyota and Subaru, inspire a generation of lighter, stiffer and fun to drive cars. For too long driver have been demonised, the talk is now of emissions and safety aids rather than being able to simply enjoy driving in as pure a manner as possible (I think it's ace that the 4C has unassisted steering in this day and age for example). Did they get it spot on? Possibly not but they're legends for trying it in the first place.

There aren't many car makers with the balls to do what they've done.

[Alfahorn]

Fantuzzi said:

Alfahorn said:

Fantuzzi said:

Honestly if you had your eyes on a new car, and EVERY mag said it was truly awful, you'd still buy it?

bks.

So, basically what you're saying is. You are unable to make a purchasing decision based on your own experiences?

Have a look at the Alfa's I've owned. They've all made me very happy, according to you I'm wrong and should have bought a boring German photocopiers or something.

As you say. bks.

Well given the 'I buy what I like regardless of general opinion' I'm guessing the person wouldn't have bothered to test the 4c back to back to its rivals to see for themselves.

If someone said they'd driven all the rivals and disagreed with the general consensus , then that's different, what I object to is the idea that you ignore that the car press completely as a guide.

With regard to your garage, if you drove the 'boring German' cars and thought the Alfa's were better, then that's your opinion, if you didn't bother, then you might have been missing out on a better car for the money. And that wouldn't make me happy - I want the best car to drive.

I don't give a fk about stereotypes, 'all German cars are boring' 'all Italian cars have soul' its bks, you buy the best car to drive you can - if you love driving. Why do I like Italian cars? Because the lighter cars appeal to me, and that's what Abarth, Fiat, Alfa Romeo did best - light racey cars.

I love Alfa Romeo because they made some amazing drivers cars, go read early reviews of the Guilia vs BMW's sporting attempts, Alfa won, Alfa was the drivers choice at that time - but not anymore. I think its a little pathetic hanging on to the mythos that Clarkson and the likes claims everything with a basilisk on the front will be the best car to get your kicks in. They aren't, people who love cars and know their history, and so badly want Alfa to have a come back and challenge the canon of modern drivers cars - that's why the 4c is such a disappointment. Because when the Cayman S' electric power steering is seen as better against a non assisted unit - you cant help feeling some people in control really didn't give too much of a fk about the 4C.

Where have I said ignore the press?

By all means take in board what they say. What I find absolutely unfathomable is the idea that you allow your decisions to be influenced by general opinion, that's really sad. If you've driven the cars and you've not been impressed by them then that's a different matter altogether.

I don't give two hoots about the opinion of Clarkson or anyone else. I enjoy driving Alfa's, I love their styling, the history and indivuality.

I've driven many, many different cars over the years. I had 18 years in the motor industry. I have VAST experience of the offerings from Germany, with few exceptions they just don't ignite my enthusiasm in any way. I just don't connect with them. You've clearly decided the 4C is disappointment purely based in what you've read, that's ridiculous.

As fr Alfa no longer producing lightweight sports cars. Until the 4C, indeed that had very much been the case. However, name a mainstream manufacturer who produces a car lighter than the cars they offered 50 years ago?

[RichB]

Fantuzzi said:

RichB said:

I really wouldn't give one moment's attention to the random jottings of motoring journalists. They are in the business of selling copy and their services nothing else. Ever since Clarkson made it big it seems the only way is to be controversial - so just ignore them and buy what you like.

Sorry Pistonheads Journos' but that's the way it is...

Motoring journalists are like any other professional, you value their experience.

At the very least journalists have driven a lot of cars, if you had a 'mate down the pub' who had driven as many cars as someone from autocar/evo/whatthefkever, you'd probably at least value their opinion given they can compare it to so many.

Out of interest in what way has motoring journalism changed since Clarkson in your eyes? Reading a lot of old reviews from various eras, it seems to me nothing has changed. The only mag I can think of that has done some rather provocative covers has been evo, but that is rather the other way than Clarksons style- all fluff and subjectivity, Evo are all about the drive not the 'character' of a car, so give less slack to crap cars, so can seem rather hard and blunt with their titles.

Honestly if you had your eyes on a new car, and EVERY mag said it was truly awful, you'd still buy it? bks.

Not really that interested so I'll give you the short answers;
- No I honestly don't value their opinions, else I'd buy nothing but BMWs and Porsches. I do look at the pictures though.
- I've driven enough cars to know what I like and what I don't and buy on that basis.
- Motoring journalism is so much more about the journalist than the car these day, the days of high quality auto journalism are long gone. Thus, "Dickie slipped the car into 3rd while skilfully applying opposite lock on the treacherous Welsh roads. Meanwhile super snapper and ace steersman Johno' demonstrated he is in fact a driving deity by taming the flat six, fire-breathing monster." As you say, all bks - Evo is one of the worst.

[Fantuzzi]

Alfahorn said:

Fantuzzi said:

Alfahorn said:

Fantuzzi said:

Honestly if you had your eyes on a new car, and EVERY mag said it was truly awful, you'd still buy it?

bks.

So, basically what you're saying is. You are unable to make a purchasing decision based on your own experiences?

Have a look at the Alfa's I've owned. They've all made me very happy, according to you I'm wrong and should have bought a boring German photocopiers or something.

As you say. bks.

Well given the 'I buy what I like regardless of general opinion' I'm guessing the person wouldn't have bothered to test the 4c back to back to its rivals to see for themselves.

If someone said they'd driven all the rivals and disagreed with the general consensus , then that's different, what I object to is the idea that you ignore that the car press completely as a guide.

With regard to your garage, if you drove the 'boring German' cars and thought the Alfa's were better, then that's your opinion, if you didn't bother, then you might have been missing out on a better car for the money. And that wouldn't make me happy - I want the best car to drive.

I don't give a fk about stereotypes, 'all German cars are boring' 'all Italian cars have soul' its bks, you buy the best car to drive you can - if you love driving. Why do I like Italian cars? Because the lighter cars appeal to me, and that's what Abarth, Fiat, Alfa Romeo did best - light racey cars.

I love Alfa Romeo because they made some amazing drivers cars, go read early reviews of the Guilia vs BMW's sporting attempts, Alfa won, Alfa was the drivers choice at that time - but not anymore. I think its a little pathetic hanging on to the mythos that Clarkson and the likes claims everything with a basilisk on the front will be the best car to get your kicks in. They aren't, people who love cars and know their history, and so badly want Alfa to have a come back and challenge the canon of modern drivers cars - that's why the 4c is such a disappointment. Because when the Cayman S' electric power steering is seen as better against a non assisted unit - you cant help feeling some people in control really didn't give too much of a fk about the 4C.

Where have I said ignore the press?

I was referring to RichB's comments, not you directly.

Alfahorn said:

By all means take in board what they say. What I find absolutely unfathomable is the idea that you allow your decisions to be influenced by general opinion, that's really sad. If you've driven the cars and you've not been impressed by them then that's a different matter altogether.

I think our views are closer than you think. If I disagreed with a consensus, I would go against it and buy what I wanted.

But why is there a sense of distrust for the motoring press? For some reason many people on this forum think the reviews are simply dreamt up, rather than an opinion (and they are just opinions) of people who spend their lives driving many different cars. The reason I trust magazines (I trust the consensus as a whole most of the time), is because if 30 or so people drive a car and they all say 'bloody brilliant 5 stars', why should I assume its a lie? It's far better to trust those without any vested interest, so I tend to take owners opinions with a pinch of salt.

Why would 30 or so reviewers notice the dodgy steering and I wouldn't? Its not a more subjective observation, or something more personal - hard ride for example, or speed (which is pretty dependent on what your used to). That's why I use mags, to tell me things I cant drive for my self, YET.

The point is I use the consensus as guide to what cars to consider - by that I mean organise to test drive, if I was in the market I wouldn't dismiss the 4C, which it appears you think I would, on the basis on the review. Merely use press as a tool, if the review was 1 star across the board, then it probably wouldn't be worth me testing, if it was 5 star 'this is the best thing since the sliced bread' then it might be the car that I look into the most intently.

Alfahorn said:

You've clearly decided the 4C is disappointment purely based in what you've read, that's ridiculous.

The reason why its a disappointment, is because it should have been perfect - I'm a fairly smart chap, I wasn't expecting the turbo unit to be particularly inspiring - but when the unassisted steering, which was a decision to make it a better drivers car, has been criticised across the board in track and road tests, even by those more favourable to the Alfa, to me the 4c is disappointment because my standards were set high by Alfas no nonsense approach which looked so promising.

As I've said I think it will be tweaked and sorted, then it will be top of its class full marks etc, but Im annoyed the steering wasn't sorted from the start.

Alfahorn said:

As fr Alfa no longer producing lightweight sports cars. Until the 4C, indeed that had very much been the case. However, name a mainstream manufacturer who produces a car lighter than the cars they offered 50 years ago?

You're right, there have been few rivals, the Mr2, Vx220, are very much in the few cars that could be seen as 'light' even by the standards of yesteryear - but the steering in the Alfa should have been perfect, the whole car enthusiast community is up in arms about the lack of steering feel due to electric PAS, yet Alfa with no PAS, gets slated? That a big fk up, Alfa, had the steering been right, would have made a modern Alfa that would have made Cayman S look uninvolving and numb, that is why I am dismissive the 4C, not because it is a bad car, its good one, but its not a great one despite all the ingredients!

[Alfahorn]

For a smart chap it seems fairly apparent you've made your mind up on the car without any experience of it. How can this be? If you've driven the car then you are then able to say, yeah I agree with the journos or not. It's seems to me some people read comments made by journalists and then present these as their opinions without any direct experience, very strange.

I have no vested interest, really. I've describe the recently launched Twinair version of the Mito as probably the worst car I've ever driven, I hated it with a passion. A car loved by Harry Metcalfe so much he bought one!

I don't know if the 4C is any good (or not) but I know it's a very exciting prospect.