Buying an Alfa 1600 GT Junior
Discussion
Hello,
Im in the market for a 105 1600 junior and was hoping to tap into the knowledge available on Pistonheads. Ive done a bit of research and it seems avoiding rusty examples should be my main focus. However after that im really unsure as to what i should be looking out for, listening out for pops and bangs in the carbs is apparently another tip to help avoid a badly built engine.
Im not very mechanically minded so any slightly dumbed down advice would be helpful, a sort of idiots guide to buying a classic Alfa would be appreciated.
Im going to have a look at a 1975 1600 gt juinor at the weekend. It has a 2ltr engine which the seller told me was what all Juniors were equipped with in the later years of production. It also has four headlamps like a GTV, however i though Juniors only had two?
Any help is very much appreciated,
Cheers
Jack.
Im in the market for a 105 1600 junior and was hoping to tap into the knowledge available on Pistonheads. Ive done a bit of research and it seems avoiding rusty examples should be my main focus. However after that im really unsure as to what i should be looking out for, listening out for pops and bangs in the carbs is apparently another tip to help avoid a badly built engine.
Im not very mechanically minded so any slightly dumbed down advice would be helpful, a sort of idiots guide to buying a classic Alfa would be appreciated.
Im going to have a look at a 1975 1600 gt juinor at the weekend. It has a 2ltr engine which the seller told me was what all Juniors were equipped with in the later years of production. It also has four headlamps like a GTV, however i though Juniors only had two?
Any help is very much appreciated,
Cheers
Jack.
jacklewisno1 said:
Hello,
It has a 2ltr engine which the seller told me was what all Juniors were equipped with in the later years of production.
Glad you're taking the plunge after we talked about it, sounds weird that its a 2litre, I'm guessing from the 2000 gt, yet still be called a 1600? Hopefully people with some proper knowledge will come along and help!It has a 2ltr engine which the seller told me was what all Juniors were equipped with in the later years of production.
Their seem to be a few juniors on here, not sure if you know it.
http://www.classicalfa.com/categories/Cars-for-Sal...
Bearing in mind that these cars are mostly over 40 years old, finding one in the same state (engine, interior etc.) as it left the factory can be quite a challenge. I know mine (1973 MkII 1750 GTV) has experienced quite a few "modifications".
Without knowing your budget and intentions - just to enjoy or historic rallying - it's difficult to give advice, other than to say go for it - it's a proper old-school drive - no power steering, or driver aids of any sort. My advice would be to get the best one you can find in respect of bodywork - the oily bits are still readily available - and I did hear that some body parts like the doors are very difficult to find.
It took me a while to gel with mine - maybe because I already had other Alfa's - and mine still needs some work. I'm planning to enjoy it during the summer and attack it this winter.
Quite a few cars had the 2 litre "enhancement" in the past. Finding an original 1600 could be quite a coup.
There's a thread over mine here - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Without knowing your budget and intentions - just to enjoy or historic rallying - it's difficult to give advice, other than to say go for it - it's a proper old-school drive - no power steering, or driver aids of any sort. My advice would be to get the best one you can find in respect of bodywork - the oily bits are still readily available - and I did hear that some body parts like the doors are very difficult to find.
It took me a while to gel with mine - maybe because I already had other Alfa's - and mine still needs some work. I'm planning to enjoy it during the summer and attack it this winter.
Quite a few cars had the 2 litre "enhancement" in the past. Finding an original 1600 could be quite a coup.
There's a thread over mine here - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by sunbeam alpine on Wednesday 18th June 18:34
Simply read this book first and then take somebody who knows these cars with you or even better. Speak to the usual suspects (alfaholics,classic alfa or Ian Ellis Alfas) who will know where there are good ones for sale.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Romeo-Giulia-Coupe-Essenti...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Romeo-Giulia-Coupe-Essenti...
My advice, whilst the mechanics are simple, which you will get to grips with later, it's all in the body.
So worthwhile persuading or paying for someone to come along to a second viewing of any car you consider. Don't buy it on the 1st visit if your a virgin.
1600 juniors, are that, 1600cc, junior referred to the lower spec level of trim.
On my 1300 junior (still with 1300 engine), has rubber flooring and boot liner to show its base spec......... Even though these are no more expensive to replace than carpetsets !
So worthwhile persuading or paying for someone to come along to a second viewing of any car you consider. Don't buy it on the 1st visit if your a virgin.
1600 juniors, are that, 1600cc, junior referred to the lower spec level of trim.
On my 1300 junior (still with 1300 engine), has rubber flooring and boot liner to show its base spec......... Even though these are no more expensive to replace than carpetsets !
Cheers for the link Fantuzzi, i hadn't seen some of those.
My uppermost budget would be 15k (pounds), any more than that and i'd be living off baked beans on toast for the next few years. Im planning on just using the car for weekend fun in good weather, no plans for classic car rally/roadtrips (not yet anyway).
The car is a 1975 gt 1600 Bertone. So from what i understand it should have a similar spec level to the 1750 and 2000 Bertone in terms of appearance such as the grill and headlights.
The car im going to look at has just been fully restored so the bodywork should be in very good condition and had a mechanical overhaul too.
I paid a visit to Solo Italia, a Italian car garage who look after the Abarth and like Jamie said they advised me that the engines are pretty straight forward to look after. Its the body rust thats the main problem.
Nice car Sunbeam, like the man in those pictures i have some red trousers to match the paintwork
My uppermost budget would be 15k (pounds), any more than that and i'd be living off baked beans on toast for the next few years. Im planning on just using the car for weekend fun in good weather, no plans for classic car rally/roadtrips (not yet anyway).
The car is a 1975 gt 1600 Bertone. So from what i understand it should have a similar spec level to the 1750 and 2000 Bertone in terms of appearance such as the grill and headlights.
The car im going to look at has just been fully restored so the bodywork should be in very good condition and had a mechanical overhaul too.
I paid a visit to Solo Italia, a Italian car garage who look after the Abarth and like Jamie said they advised me that the engines are pretty straight forward to look after. Its the body rust thats the main problem.
Nice car Sunbeam, like the man in those pictures i have some red trousers to match the paintwork
jacklewisno1 said:
It also has four headlamps like a GTV, however i though Juniors only had two?
Early juniors had two, by the end they all had the 2000 style grill.As has been mentioned already check the body, don't worry too much about the mechanicals.
Not sure where you are based, but I'm near Halifax if you want to look at a 1750 up on axle stands!
Alfaholics has some great stuff, found this,
http://www.alfaholics.com/2013/10/1976-alfa-romeo-...
Or if you're feeling racey...
http://www.alfaholics.com/2014/06/alfa-romeo-1600-...
(Good choice of tires on it as well
)
They also have some rather tasty early spiders as well!
http://www.alfaholics.com/2013/10/1976-alfa-romeo-...
Or if you're feeling racey...
http://www.alfaholics.com/2014/06/alfa-romeo-1600-...
(Good choice of tires on it as well
)They also have some rather tasty early spiders as well!
Im in Oxfordshire, so Halifax is a bit of a trek but thankyou for the offer. Dare i ask why its on axle stands?
as for the links, the first one is very similar to the car im visiting. Im rather keen on buying one thats just had all the bodywork done, so as to avoid rust. Although the one you showed does look a corker.
The second one looks like fun! Im not so sure about insuring a car like that though as it would be classed as modified which when your 22 is a bit of a killer
It appears to be wearing your favourite semi semi slicks Fantuzzi
Cheers for all this help!
as for the links, the first one is very similar to the car im visiting. Im rather keen on buying one thats just had all the bodywork done, so as to avoid rust. Although the one you showed does look a corker.
The second one looks like fun! Im not so sure about insuring a car like that though as it would be classed as modified which when your 22 is a bit of a killer
It appears to be wearing your favourite semi semi slicks Fantuzzi Cheers for all this help!
I'd even be wary about cars that are claimed to have been restored. There are restorations and there are restorations. If there's photographic evidence, and you can speak to the people who did, so much the better.
I have two cars. One was fully rotisserie restored and the other was a rolling restoration. I was lucky that the rolling restoration was done well. But they did 'miss' a cross member that I've just had to replace which necessitated taking the engine out to do properly.
Even after my own amateur inspection (and the book mentioned earlier is a very good place to start) I think that these days I'd pay one of the 105 series experts to do a full inspection as well. It would be money well spent whatever the outcome.
Lastly, a well £15K might even sneak you a 1750 or 2 litre.
Good luck, even if you don't one of the cars you're looking at….keep looking! They do come up and they're a great joy.
See you at one of the track days I hope.
I have two cars. One was fully rotisserie restored and the other was a rolling restoration. I was lucky that the rolling restoration was done well. But they did 'miss' a cross member that I've just had to replace which necessitated taking the engine out to do properly.
Even after my own amateur inspection (and the book mentioned earlier is a very good place to start) I think that these days I'd pay one of the 105 series experts to do a full inspection as well. It would be money well spent whatever the outcome.
Lastly, a well £15K might even sneak you a 1750 or 2 litre.
Good luck, even if you don't one of the cars you're looking at….keep looking! They do come up and they're a great joy.
See you at one of the track days I hope.
If your looking at a restored car check the following;
Should be a small vertical seam on the sills. Check its there, level and that both panels either side are level.
Doors close nicely, windows wind up and down and seal, with the doors closed.
As with any car restored, check all the panel gaps.
Look at the floor pan, check for nasty patch work. Proper restoration should be using proper repair panels, not patches.
Also ideally any respray should be full body, with interior and engine out. So fresh paint in the engine bay, boot, under backseat (easier to remove than carpet).
Should be a small vertical seam on the sills. Check its there, level and that both panels either side are level.
Doors close nicely, windows wind up and down and seal, with the doors closed.
As with any car restored, check all the panel gaps.
Look at the floor pan, check for nasty patch work. Proper restoration should be using proper repair panels, not patches.
Also ideally any respray should be full body, with interior and engine out. So fresh paint in the engine bay, boot, under backseat (easier to remove than carpet).
Well it certainly looked pretty. I looked for rust but was unable to find any, the underside of the car had been sealed with a sort of Bitumen under seal. The bodywork was in very good condition, no signs of rust and it had been painted very recently. The wheels had also had a refurbishment. The interior was in good condition. Not excellent, just good. The dash was free of cracks, in fact the only thing that really needs fixing in there is the passenger seat belt which wont tighten. Its been re carpeted inside which looks ok but not amazing.
So we went for a test drive for just over an hour of which i drove half of it. The gear change is smooth, the clutch heavy. The brakes were fairly strong, but its difficult for me to judge how strong brakes on a 40 year old car should be. The pads are new at least. Their was some popping from the exhaust on the over run, but the carbs were balanced and the car tuned only about a month ago. So i assume that is nothing to worry about? My Abarth pops on the over run so it would seem only right that a 40 year old car would do the same.
One thing that surprised me was how fast it was. It really isn't slow, the torque was very impressive. The test drive took us up steep hills and back down again, through a twisty forest and then some town driving with traffic. So offered lots of different variations of road/traffic giving me a good feel for the car. The temperatures stayed neutral in that time, the Kenlow fan seemed to do its job.
The car wasn't a minter, but it wasn't shabby either and looked beautiful.
Ive got untill Wednesday to make my mind up.
So we went for a test drive for just over an hour of which i drove half of it. The gear change is smooth, the clutch heavy. The brakes were fairly strong, but its difficult for me to judge how strong brakes on a 40 year old car should be. The pads are new at least. Their was some popping from the exhaust on the over run, but the carbs were balanced and the car tuned only about a month ago. So i assume that is nothing to worry about? My Abarth pops on the over run so it would seem only right that a 40 year old car would do the same.
One thing that surprised me was how fast it was. It really isn't slow, the torque was very impressive. The test drive took us up steep hills and back down again, through a twisty forest and then some town driving with traffic. So offered lots of different variations of road/traffic giving me a good feel for the car. The temperatures stayed neutral in that time, the Kenlow fan seemed to do its job.
The car wasn't a minter, but it wasn't shabby either and looked beautiful.
Ive got untill Wednesday to make my mind up.
jacklewisno1 said:
Well it certainly looked pretty. I looked for rust but was unable to find any, the underside of the car had been sealed with a sort of Bitumen under seal. The bodywork was in very good condition, no signs of rust and it had been painted very recently. The wheels had also had a refurbishment. The interior was in good condition. Not excellent, just good. The dash was free of cracks, in fact the only thing that really needs fixing in there is the passenger seat belt which wont tighten. Its been re carpeted inside which looks ok but not amazing.
So we went for a test drive for just over an hour of which i drove half of it. The gear change is smooth, the clutch heavy. The brakes were fairly strong, but its difficult for me to judge how strong brakes on a 40 year old car should be. The pads are new at least. Their was some popping from the exhaust on the over run, but the carbs were balanced and the car tuned only about a month ago. So i assume that is nothing to worry about? My Abarth pops on the over run so it would seem only right that a 40 year old car would do the same.
One thing that surprised me was how fast it was. It really isn't slow, the torque was very impressive. The test drive took us up steep hills and back down again, through a twisty forest and then some town driving with traffic. So offered lots of different variations of road/traffic giving me a good feel for the car. The temperatures stayed neutral in that time, the Kenlow fan seemed to do its job.
The car wasn't a minter, but it wasn't shabby either and looked beautiful.
Ive got untill Wednesday to make my mind up.
How did it fair in the twisty stuff, did the 105 series live up to its reputation?So we went for a test drive for just over an hour of which i drove half of it. The gear change is smooth, the clutch heavy. The brakes were fairly strong, but its difficult for me to judge how strong brakes on a 40 year old car should be. The pads are new at least. Their was some popping from the exhaust on the over run, but the carbs were balanced and the car tuned only about a month ago. So i assume that is nothing to worry about? My Abarth pops on the over run so it would seem only right that a 40 year old car would do the same.
One thing that surprised me was how fast it was. It really isn't slow, the torque was very impressive. The test drive took us up steep hills and back down again, through a twisty forest and then some town driving with traffic. So offered lots of different variations of road/traffic giving me a good feel for the car. The temperatures stayed neutral in that time, the Kenlow fan seemed to do its job.
The car wasn't a minter, but it wasn't shabby either and looked beautiful.
Ive got untill Wednesday to make my mind up.
Given its a big purchase, I wouldn't worry about waiting for the right one, or even waiting to drive another before deciding.
Why is Wednesday the cut off?
Fantuzzi said:
How did it fair in the twisty stuff, did the 105 series live up to its reputation?
Given its a big purchase, I wouldn't worry about waiting for the right one, or even waiting to drive another before deciding.
Why is Wednesday the cut off?
I drove it in the twisty stuff at the start of my drive, so i didn't push it too hard. That said the car did seem to have good turn in, certainly no hint of under steer. The suspension was firmish but not uncomfortable. I could hear the spare wheel bouncing in the boot over the bigger bumps and potholes. Given its a big purchase, I wouldn't worry about waiting for the right one, or even waiting to drive another before deciding.
Why is Wednesday the cut off?
Wednesday is the cut off because ive made the seller an offer which he has accepted. We've agreed to a provisional sale, by which i mean i have until Wednesday to confirm that i definitely want to buy it or not. Ive essentially got until then to think things over or try other cars. However so far the other car i wanted to see (the first link you posted) has since been sold.
Their really doesn't seem to be much to improve. The air vent on the drivers side made a scrapey sort of sound temporarily when air was being blown through it and the passenger seat belt needs fixing but other than that it looks good.
Given that all the other examples are either more expensive for a similar condition or not restored and the fact that he's knocked the price down a bit i feel inclined to go for it!
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