Buying an Alfa 1600 GT Junior
Discussion
jacklewisno1 said:
Fantuzzi said:
How did it fair in the twisty stuff, did the 105 series live up to its reputation?
Given its a big purchase, I wouldn't worry about waiting for the right one, or even waiting to drive another before deciding.
Why is Wednesday the cut off?
I drove it in the twisty stuff at the start of my drive, so i didn't push it too hard. That said the car did seem to have good turn in, certainly no hint of under steer. The suspension was firmish but not uncomfortable. I could hear the spare wheel bouncing in the boot over the bigger bumps and potholes. Given its a big purchase, I wouldn't worry about waiting for the right one, or even waiting to drive another before deciding.
Why is Wednesday the cut off?
Wednesday is the cut off because ive made the seller an offer which he has accepted. We've agreed to a provisional sale, by which i mean i have until Wednesday to confirm that i definitely want to buy it or not. Ive essentially got until then to think things over or try other cars. However so far the other car i wanted to see (the first link you posted) has since been sold.
Their really doesn't seem to be much to improve. The air vent on the drivers side made a scrapey sort of sound temporarily when air was being blown through it and the passenger seat belt needs fixing but other than that it looks good.
Given that all the other examples are either more expensive for a similar condition or not restored and the fact that he's knocked the price down a bit i feel inclined to go for it!
Is the engine from the 2000 gt veloce? If so that's a pretty healthy power to weight ratio, 130bhp to move 930kgs, no wonder why it felt quick!
You've not given us much detail to go on in terms of helping you make a decision. Photos or a link to the advert (assuming it was advertised?), would at least give people a chance to check it looks right on the outside.
As has been mentioned a few times, body condition is everything with these Cars, most mechanical maladies can be sorted fairly easily, though if you aren't handy with a set of Spanners, you need to think about getting handy, running old Cars on a regular basis means you either need deep pockets to pay the maintenance or do it yourself.
Later model GT Juniors are practically indistinguishable from the 2000GTV's, all have the four headlight front with the flatter grill, not the more pronounced centre heart like the 1750's or earlier Juniors and GT's.
The later Cars also got the same interior as a 2000GTV which means good seats, but a slightly more brittle and less appealing (but arguably more ergonomic) dash board design.
The 2000 Engine is well worth having over the 1600, as you have already noticed it makes for a pretty quick Car especially on hills as the power to weight ratio is well up to most moderns the Engine has a superbly flat torque curve too meaning the power is there when you need it. Does the Car have an LSD?, it's likely if somebody has taken the mechancials off a 2000GTV, if it hasn't you should consider that as a worthwhile upgrade. Talking of upgrades, is it standard suspension?, many have had one of the Handling Kits fitted and better dampers, it's worth finding out what you are getting.
Have you sorted insurance out yet?, being of a tender age you might not get a classic policy very easily and the change of engine will complicate that, we all know it is effectively a 2000GTV, but the insurance companies get nervy about engine changes as they don't always believe the rest of the car is up to the standard demanded of the extra power. (in the case of a GTj, its the practically same anyway so makes no difference!)
You mentioned hearing the spare wheel banging about, are you sure it was that?, going on direct experience here, but I have an annoying knocking noise on the back of mine which I put down to the spare wheel. So I took it out, but the noise carried on. I'm working my way around everything I can think of now but it's still makes the noise!. I'm hoping it's just the Exhaust knocking.
15K, seems about right by the way. The two cars linked too in the thread both look good value, the one with the Cage particularly so, in fact I'd say that is a bargain if it's as good as it looks.
As has been mentioned a few times, body condition is everything with these Cars, most mechanical maladies can be sorted fairly easily, though if you aren't handy with a set of Spanners, you need to think about getting handy, running old Cars on a regular basis means you either need deep pockets to pay the maintenance or do it yourself.
Later model GT Juniors are practically indistinguishable from the 2000GTV's, all have the four headlight front with the flatter grill, not the more pronounced centre heart like the 1750's or earlier Juniors and GT's.
The later Cars also got the same interior as a 2000GTV which means good seats, but a slightly more brittle and less appealing (but arguably more ergonomic) dash board design.
The 2000 Engine is well worth having over the 1600, as you have already noticed it makes for a pretty quick Car especially on hills as the power to weight ratio is well up to most moderns the Engine has a superbly flat torque curve too meaning the power is there when you need it. Does the Car have an LSD?, it's likely if somebody has taken the mechancials off a 2000GTV, if it hasn't you should consider that as a worthwhile upgrade. Talking of upgrades, is it standard suspension?, many have had one of the Handling Kits fitted and better dampers, it's worth finding out what you are getting.
Have you sorted insurance out yet?, being of a tender age you might not get a classic policy very easily and the change of engine will complicate that, we all know it is effectively a 2000GTV, but the insurance companies get nervy about engine changes as they don't always believe the rest of the car is up to the standard demanded of the extra power. (in the case of a GTj, its the practically same anyway so makes no difference!)
You mentioned hearing the spare wheel banging about, are you sure it was that?, going on direct experience here, but I have an annoying knocking noise on the back of mine which I put down to the spare wheel. So I took it out, but the noise carried on. I'm working my way around everything I can think of now but it's still makes the noise!. I'm hoping it's just the Exhaust knocking.
15K, seems about right by the way. The two cars linked too in the thread both look good value, the one with the Cage particularly so, in fact I'd say that is a bargain if it's as good as it looks.
Fantuzzi said:
Go for it then!
Is the engine from the 2000 gt veloce? If so that's a pretty healthy power to weight ratio, 130bhp to move 930kgs, no wonder why it felt quick!
Which Cars have you weighed then?.Is the engine from the 2000 gt veloce? If so that's a pretty healthy power to weight ratio, 130bhp to move 930kgs, no wonder why it felt quick!
By old Car standards 105 coupe's are pretty heavy actually, normally quoted Kerb weight for a 2000GTV is 2300 lbs, which is 1043KG. Ad the oil, Fuel, Heavier modern Tyres (heavier modern Driver!) etc and there's no change from 1150KG, much heavier than say an Escort RS2000. But as you say a 2000GTV is still a quick Car as the Engine is very tourqy low down and will still rev out at the top end.
velocemitch said:
Fantuzzi said:
Go for it then!
Is the engine from the 2000 gt veloce? If so that's a pretty healthy power to weight ratio, 130bhp to move 930kgs, no wonder why it felt quick!
Which Cars have you weighed then?.Is the engine from the 2000 gt veloce? If so that's a pretty healthy power to weight ratio, 130bhp to move 930kgs, no wonder why it felt quick!
By old Car standards 105 coupe's are pretty heavy actually, normally quoted Kerb weight for a 2000GTV is 2300 lbs, which is 1043KG. Ad the oil, Fuel, Heavier modern Tyres (heavier modern Driver!) etc and there's no change from 1150KG, much heavier than say an Escort RS2000. But as you say a 2000GTV is still a quick Car as the Engine is very tourqy low down and will still rev out at the top end.
The 930 was given as kerb, but most Italian statistics/classic are given as dry so I tend to take them with a pinch of salt.
I don't think the 105 can be considered that heavy, the GTAs were considerably lighter than class rivals Lotus Cortinas, BMW 2002, and even sports cars like the tr4 were heavier. What are you comparing the standard too? Im not very good on 'normal' cars of that era, my interests only really lie in sports car.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C487574
This is the car.
Edited by Fantuzzi on Sunday 22 June 13:22
You aren't comparing Apples with Apples there though a GTA is significantly lighter than a normal Coupe, that was to bring it down to the weight of the Lotus Cortina etc. but anyway...
The Car in the link then.
Certainly looks clean enough, but a few things jump out at me which may need to be considered;
The front Grill and centre Heart are off a 1750 GTV rather than the a late GTj or 2000GTV, this could be seen as a good thing, they are arguably prettier and the parts to do that conversion are more expensive than the later grill. In point of fact my own 2000GTV wears the grill off my 1750 too, but that was because the original grill met a sticky end, as did the Pheasant I hit at about 80MPH!.
Of slightly more concern is the rear end is also off an earlier Car too, the smaller lights had been superseded by much larger ones by the time this particular Car was made, so either the restorer has filled in the larger apertures or used the whole rear panel of the earlier pattern. Again this could be seen as good thing as the smaller lights look nicer, but if originality bothers you it's important to realise.
The Filler cap for the fuel tank has moved from the side of the wing to the top, I'd have to ask why?, has it got a non standard fuel tank?, did the 'repairs to the wings' mean the area around the filler flap was too far gone and has been replaced with some panel beating?. That bit would concern me most, the proper wings are available why not use them. What else has gone on around there and why.
I notice it's got a Webasto roof, some feel these are a nice feature, some prefer them without, some say they rob headroom. I'm easy either way myself as I have one of each.
The Interior looks OK, not sure about the 'Nardi Wheel' mentioned in the blurb, that one looks like a standard Alfa one of that era, rather than an expensive after market Nardi.
Engine Bay all looks OK, Servo's look nice and clean.
Mention is made of replacing the 3 piece sills on both sides which is good, but no mention of the floor pans, they rarely survive if the sills needed doing. It's worth looking closely at the floors and making sure they are not heavily patched with double skinning as rust will take hold between the layers. I'd be taking photographs underneath by poking a small camera under as far as I could reach. You need to make sure the main Chassis parts are not a patch work quilt of double skinning or worse heavy bitumen underseal hides a multitude of sins. Ask to see photographs of the restoration, if there are none, you could do with knowing why.
A full restoration of one of these Cars is possible as most of the parts are available to buy now, but going back a few years his wasn't the case. I wonder if this Car was restored some time ago using what parts the owner could get and a lot of making up. I know to my cost how this can be a problem as some of the complex shapes tend to be wrong spoiling the lines.
Lastly... Ferrari Red! sacrilege...
I probably sound a bit negative reading this back, but I don't mean to be, if the Car is properly sound and you don't mind something non original, you will have a fantastic time owning and driving her I'm sure.
The Car in the link then.
Certainly looks clean enough, but a few things jump out at me which may need to be considered;
The front Grill and centre Heart are off a 1750 GTV rather than the a late GTj or 2000GTV, this could be seen as a good thing, they are arguably prettier and the parts to do that conversion are more expensive than the later grill. In point of fact my own 2000GTV wears the grill off my 1750 too, but that was because the original grill met a sticky end, as did the Pheasant I hit at about 80MPH!.
Of slightly more concern is the rear end is also off an earlier Car too, the smaller lights had been superseded by much larger ones by the time this particular Car was made, so either the restorer has filled in the larger apertures or used the whole rear panel of the earlier pattern. Again this could be seen as good thing as the smaller lights look nicer, but if originality bothers you it's important to realise.
The Filler cap for the fuel tank has moved from the side of the wing to the top, I'd have to ask why?, has it got a non standard fuel tank?, did the 'repairs to the wings' mean the area around the filler flap was too far gone and has been replaced with some panel beating?. That bit would concern me most, the proper wings are available why not use them. What else has gone on around there and why.
I notice it's got a Webasto roof, some feel these are a nice feature, some prefer them without, some say they rob headroom. I'm easy either way myself as I have one of each.
The Interior looks OK, not sure about the 'Nardi Wheel' mentioned in the blurb, that one looks like a standard Alfa one of that era, rather than an expensive after market Nardi.
Engine Bay all looks OK, Servo's look nice and clean.
Mention is made of replacing the 3 piece sills on both sides which is good, but no mention of the floor pans, they rarely survive if the sills needed doing. It's worth looking closely at the floors and making sure they are not heavily patched with double skinning as rust will take hold between the layers. I'd be taking photographs underneath by poking a small camera under as far as I could reach. You need to make sure the main Chassis parts are not a patch work quilt of double skinning or worse heavy bitumen underseal hides a multitude of sins. Ask to see photographs of the restoration, if there are none, you could do with knowing why.
A full restoration of one of these Cars is possible as most of the parts are available to buy now, but going back a few years his wasn't the case. I wonder if this Car was restored some time ago using what parts the owner could get and a lot of making up. I know to my cost how this can be a problem as some of the complex shapes tend to be wrong spoiling the lines.
Lastly... Ferrari Red! sacrilege...
I probably sound a bit negative reading this back, but I don't mean to be, if the Car is properly sound and you don't mind something non original, you will have a fantastic time owning and driving her I'm sure.
velocemitch said:
You aren't comparing Apples with Apples there though a GTA is significantly lighter than a normal Coupe, that was to bring it down to the weight of the Lotus Cortina etc. but anyway...
I was comparing the GTA to similar class rivals, not the GTA to the standard 105.Like I said, I don't know the stats off hand of the standard 105s class rivals, I only know the more sporting variants of 60s touring models, of which, the Alfa top models were lighter than most other high performance 2dr saloons of its class.
I'm sure Jack appreciates your help on the car. Thanks
I think Mitch has summed it up. It looks a decent fun car, but not original. That's not necessarily a problem, unless you were hoping it was original! It's got the prettier front and rear ends so I'd view it as a plus! I've seen the filler cap in that position before, but usually on GTAMs I think. Were the rear wings fibreglass by any chance?
The Alfa Romeo factory archives will tell you what the car should be if you send them the chassis number.
The Alfa Romeo factory archives will tell you what the car should be if you send them the chassis number.
Ok so, i went to my parents house to discuss the garage arrangements. My dad says he needs the garage for a few more months in order to do some woodwork. He's not very well so doesn't have much energy which means i cant rush him. The other garage i was going to use now has a Golf GTI in it for restoration, so thats not available either. Ive decided to retract the offer until i have a garage to store it in, i dont want to buy an Alfa in good nick and then just let it rot outside for several months.
As for the car itself cheers for the info on the fuel cap and rear of the car. I didn't know about the fuel tank and was unsure as to which rear the car should have. Originality for me isn't a big deal, like Rick said it looks better that way. I think once you add those changes to the non original paint colour and the engine it could make it harder to sell on. Which eventually i would have to do. The original grille came with the car along with the bumpers by the way.
So for now its all on hold, i think if the garage had been available i would have used the info given to barter him down further.
P.S the wings were metal and no their were no photo's of the restoration, which worried me at the time but i think i overlooked it because i was so excited about driving it.
As for the car itself cheers for the info on the fuel cap and rear of the car. I didn't know about the fuel tank and was unsure as to which rear the car should have. Originality for me isn't a big deal, like Rick said it looks better that way. I think once you add those changes to the non original paint colour and the engine it could make it harder to sell on. Which eventually i would have to do. The original grille came with the car along with the bumpers by the way.
So for now its all on hold, i think if the garage had been available i would have used the info given to barter him down further.
P.S the wings were metal and no their were no photo's of the restoration, which worried me at the time but i think i overlooked it because i was so excited about driving it.
I did wonder if the Wings might be Fibre Glass, there are a few about and are actually quite good too. That Fuel filler is a puzzle though, if it has a standard tank the filler neck must have been altered, if it hasn't I'd suspect it may have some sort of competition tank fitted for some reason. Could have had a rear end hit you know, that might explain the rear panel, the tank and the wings. The Structure of these Cars is very weak behind the rear axle, it doesn't take much of a knock to fold it all inwards.
Refitting the Grill and Bumpers wouldn't be a problem. You could make a few quid selling the 1750 type too as they fetch good money (should you choose too obviously).
Not sure I'd be too worried about a Garage for a few months to be honest, it's summer so any moisture will dry off quickly enough. If it's protected well enough it shouldn't be a problem. Unless it's the security issue that worries you.
There will be other Cars though, so you are probably best keeping your powder dry for now and seeing what crops up in the next few months. If you haven't already order the buyers guide and the John Tippler Book too as they will help you understand the range better and give you some important pointers as too what to look out for.
Refitting the Grill and Bumpers wouldn't be a problem. You could make a few quid selling the 1750 type too as they fetch good money (should you choose too obviously).
Not sure I'd be too worried about a Garage for a few months to be honest, it's summer so any moisture will dry off quickly enough. If it's protected well enough it shouldn't be a problem. Unless it's the security issue that worries you.
There will be other Cars though, so you are probably best keeping your powder dry for now and seeing what crops up in the next few months. If you haven't already order the buyers guide and the John Tippler Book too as they will help you understand the range better and give you some important pointers as too what to look out for.
corporalsparrow said:
If I had £15,000 burning a hole, then I'd call up about that track day/fast road car on the Alfaholics site that was mentioned earlier. That's a lot of car for the money.
Indeed, trouble is you never know what's lurking under shiny paint and it's priced a bit cheap for its specification, so you do have to wonder.I'd certainly be looking though.
Well thank you for all the advice, the council garage option sounds good. Im not sure if its available where i live so i will do some research.
Another issue with the car is that it has a 2 ltr unit. This means it has to be insured as being modified. Elephant insurance do not insure cars with non standard engines which means that i would loose the multi-car discount. Using a different insurer makes it a bit more expensive, more than i would like to pay if i know i could get it cheaper with a standard engine.
The seller claimed that because it was a end of production car it was fitted from the factory with a 2ltr engine. He says Alfa Romeo have confirmed this with him. But as far as the insurer's are concerned its non standard.
This would also make the Alfaholic's car in the link above more pricey to insure. So ill probably stick with one as close as possible to the original.
Maybe something like this.. http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/car-advert/alf...
Another issue with the car is that it has a 2 ltr unit. This means it has to be insured as being modified. Elephant insurance do not insure cars with non standard engines which means that i would loose the multi-car discount. Using a different insurer makes it a bit more expensive, more than i would like to pay if i know i could get it cheaper with a standard engine.
The seller claimed that because it was a end of production car it was fitted from the factory with a 2ltr engine. He says Alfa Romeo have confirmed this with him. But as far as the insurer's are concerned its non standard.
This would also make the Alfaholic's car in the link above more pricey to insure. So ill probably stick with one as close as possible to the original.
Maybe something like this.. http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/car-advert/alf...
Have you tried a classic policy?, I mentioned earlier that it might be tricky as a 22 year old, but it might work out ok. Another thing to think about is investigating the Alfa Romeo Owners Club agreement with Chris Knott insurance, they are pretty competitive now and might be more accommodating. They would do multi car with the abarth. You would need to be a member, but they might quote on the basis of you joining hen you took out the policy. I'd reccome d you did join if you took the plunge and bought as there is a wealth of knowledge to tap into.
Not sure I buy into the statement about factory fitted 2 litres on juniors. If it was proved to be the case. Then you could just call it a GTV and insure it as that perhaps.
Blue car is a Left hooker, might make the driving experience a bit compromised for you, could also introduce the same problem with unsurance too.
It's surprising how few of these cars are totally standard a main stream insurer like elefant are not likely to be very understanding compared to the specialists.
Not sure I buy into the statement about factory fitted 2 litres on juniors. If it was proved to be the case. Then you could just call it a GTV and insure it as that perhaps.
Blue car is a Left hooker, might make the driving experience a bit compromised for you, could also introduce the same problem with unsurance too.
It's surprising how few of these cars are totally standard a main stream insurer like elefant are not likely to be very understanding compared to the specialists.
Im going to some tinkering around with the insurance to try and come up with the best deal i can. Cheers for the tip on the Chris Knott thing. I could see my age being a problem as most classic car drivers are older and wiser than myself. Elephant actually told me to try Adrian Flux!
Ive ordered the Buying guide, much study is needed.
Ive ordered the Buying guide, much study is needed.
Adrian Flux might be Ok they do some classic stuff. The nice looking young Ladies in their adverts, tend to catch my Eye anyway. 
These people might be worth a punt too, they do modified Cars for young drivers as part of the there Competition Car stuff, that modified Car probably wouldn't phase them either.
http://www.rallycar-insurance.co.uk/index.asp
Currently I'm with RH Classic Insurance and they have been very good about modifications, Roll Cages, suspension kits etc. Cost's me about £150.00 including European Breakdown I'm an old bugger though....
These people might be worth a punt too, they do modified Cars for young drivers as part of the there Competition Car stuff, that modified Car probably wouldn't phase them either.
http://www.rallycar-insurance.co.uk/index.asp
Currently I'm with RH Classic Insurance and they have been very good about modifications, Roll Cages, suspension kits etc. Cost's me about £150.00 including European Breakdown I'm an old bugger though....
Gassing Station | Alfa Romeo, Fiat & Lancia | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff