When did Alfa Romeo die?
Discussion
Which bit of the Giulietta or 4C has GM parts?
We've done your investment/159 line before. The investment bit isn't true and the 159 was a mistake on pretty much every level but an aesthetic one.
You say Volvo (because they've produced such captivating cars recently, right?) and Jaguar, and I say SAAB, or Seat, or MG, or Ford-owned Jaguar, or Ford-owned Volvo, or a string of others. You bemoan what FCA have done with Alfa and I say look to Maserati for what can happen.
I agree that the G and MiTo are not interesting enough, which I hope is a temporary hangover that stems from what they had to work with at the time, although I think much more could have been done. In fact I probably agree to an extent with the spirit of your critique.
All the while I just think you've dug your own pit of despair, regardless of what they actually do. If you came to the same car with a positive preconception then you might find you liked contemporary or future Fiat-owned Alfa quite a bit more.
We've done your investment/159 line before. The investment bit isn't true and the 159 was a mistake on pretty much every level but an aesthetic one.
You say Volvo (because they've produced such captivating cars recently, right?) and Jaguar, and I say SAAB, or Seat, or MG, or Ford-owned Jaguar, or Ford-owned Volvo, or a string of others. You bemoan what FCA have done with Alfa and I say look to Maserati for what can happen.
I agree that the G and MiTo are not interesting enough, which I hope is a temporary hangover that stems from what they had to work with at the time, although I think much more could have been done. In fact I probably agree to an extent with the spirit of your critique.
All the while I just think you've dug your own pit of despair, regardless of what they actually do. If you came to the same car with a positive preconception then you might find you liked contemporary or future Fiat-owned Alfa quite a bit more.
trashbat said:
Which bit of the Giulietta or 4C has GM parts?
We've done your investment/159 line before. The investment bit isn't true and the 159 was a mistake on pretty much every level but an aesthetic one.
You say Volvo (because they've produced such captivating cars recently, right?) and Jaguar, and I say SAAB, or Seat, or MG, or Ford-owned Jaguar, or Ford-owned Volvo, or a string of others. You bemoan what FCA have done with Alfa and I say look to Maserati for what can happen.
I agree that the G and MiTo are not interesting enough, which I hope is a temporary hangover that stems from what they had to work with at the time, although I think much more could have been done. In fact I probably agree to an extent with the spirit of your critique.
All the while I just think you've dug your own pit of despair, regardless of what they actually do. If you came to the same car with a positive preconception then you might find you liked contemporary or future Fiat-owned Alfa quite a bit more.
Hello? What despair? What pit?We've done your investment/159 line before. The investment bit isn't true and the 159 was a mistake on pretty much every level but an aesthetic one.
You say Volvo (because they've produced such captivating cars recently, right?) and Jaguar, and I say SAAB, or Seat, or MG, or Ford-owned Jaguar, or Ford-owned Volvo, or a string of others. You bemoan what FCA have done with Alfa and I say look to Maserati for what can happen.
I agree that the G and MiTo are not interesting enough, which I hope is a temporary hangover that stems from what they had to work with at the time, although I think much more could have been done. In fact I probably agree to an extent with the spirit of your critique.
All the while I just think you've dug your own pit of despair, regardless of what they actually do. If you came to the same car with a positive preconception then you might find you liked contemporary or future Fiat-owned Alfa quite a bit more.
On the investment stop google seems to disagree. Also exactly what new volume products has Alfa put out since 2009? Compare with any other brand please. Except Lancia.
The wife bought a V40. It stands next to the Giulietta in our garage. It is lower, more stylish, more modern, and has a more sporting suspension setup. Volvo is becoming Alfa-interesting and Alfa is becoming Volvo-dull. Seat outsells Alfa 3 to 1. Would I like one -no. But are they managed better -hell yes!
For me one of Alfa's core brand values is now at complete odds with current consumer thinking. Don't know if you guys think I'm talking rubbish here but do you not think that people bought Alfas because they were inferior in so many ways to the opposition yet shone so strongly in one or two key areas that the negatives were forgiven?
This thing called 'character' that every Alfa review bangs on about is one of Alfas strongest brand values yet how does it fit into the modern world. Do Alfa just strive to make Audis in an Armani suit or do they seek to be the leftfield, anti establishment choice. Looking at Marchionnes plan it looks like the former and I guess this is what will appeal to the emerging markets but European Alfa buyers are a different bunch and I worry that the future range won't cater for us.
This thing called 'character' that every Alfa review bangs on about is one of Alfas strongest brand values yet how does it fit into the modern world. Do Alfa just strive to make Audis in an Armani suit or do they seek to be the leftfield, anti establishment choice. Looking at Marchionnes plan it looks like the former and I guess this is what will appeal to the emerging markets but European Alfa buyers are a different bunch and I worry that the future range won't cater for us.
errek72 said:
The wife bought a V40. It stands next to the Giulietta in our garage. It is lower, more stylish, more modern, and has a more sporting suspension setup. Volvo is becoming Alfa-interesting and Alfa is becoming Volvo-dull. Seat outsells Alfa 3 to 1. Would I like one -no. But are they managed better -hell yes!
Is it prevented from being a real Volvo by being based on a platform shared by the Ford Focus?Read the investor material if you can be bothered. There's been no R&D freeze. I can't find anything that supports your claim by searching either.
I've said this so many times on threads before, but we're lumbered with the current range, 4C excluded, because of history - both market conditions and available technology. You don't make big, comparatively cheap cars out on a limb when you don't have the volume to support them, and you don't have the volume to support it if your whole group is based around making superminis. Compound that with the fact that you can't revert to what you used to do, because the economy and market change won't allow it any more. Much of that has changed in recent years and I hope we'll see the fruits of it. It's taking longer than I hoped.
I look at the Giulietta QV and I see a highly regarded Alfa, with an Alfa engine, designed and built in Italy out of unique to the car components, made feasible on a production and ownership basis by both volume and re-use elsewhere in the group. Personally I think bits of it are boring, significantly more boring than earlier cars. I think they should have gone further, both with small steps like the suspension, and big ones like a variant that compares with or betters GTAs of the 2000s. I see the group identifying those same missed opportunities, although as yet not doing anything tangible to resolve them.
I look at Seat, outselling Alfa 3 to 1, and I see what, I don't know. A hand-me-down Volkswagen or Audi, badge engineered and made of group parts on a group platform? No apparent brand values other than a cost-related one, no apparent autonomy in how it operates.
I don't long for some impossible revisionist history where Alfa operate in some whatever-decade, vacuum version of the market.
I've said this so many times on threads before, but we're lumbered with the current range, 4C excluded, because of history - both market conditions and available technology. You don't make big, comparatively cheap cars out on a limb when you don't have the volume to support them, and you don't have the volume to support it if your whole group is based around making superminis. Compound that with the fact that you can't revert to what you used to do, because the economy and market change won't allow it any more. Much of that has changed in recent years and I hope we'll see the fruits of it. It's taking longer than I hoped.
I look at the Giulietta QV and I see a highly regarded Alfa, with an Alfa engine, designed and built in Italy out of unique to the car components, made feasible on a production and ownership basis by both volume and re-use elsewhere in the group. Personally I think bits of it are boring, significantly more boring than earlier cars. I think they should have gone further, both with small steps like the suspension, and big ones like a variant that compares with or betters GTAs of the 2000s. I see the group identifying those same missed opportunities, although as yet not doing anything tangible to resolve them.
I look at Seat, outselling Alfa 3 to 1, and I see what, I don't know. A hand-me-down Volkswagen or Audi, badge engineered and made of group parts on a group platform? No apparent brand values other than a cost-related one, no apparent autonomy in how it operates.
I don't long for some impossible revisionist history where Alfa operate in some whatever-decade, vacuum version of the market.
crostonian said:
I don't see how you can say Alfa died with the 75. The subsequent range of front wheel drive cars were successful particularly the 164, 155, 145, 147 and 156. The era also produced the 916 GTV and Spider which were highly regarded. If you are going to bemoan the lack of rear wheel drive then maybe you have to look back at the launch of the Alfasud as the beginning of the demise - I know some of my Alfa loving friends in Italy feel this way, northern Italian Alfa fans have little love for the Sud.
For me the first signs of neglect were apparent around 2004/5. The facelift 156 and 147s suffered a real downturn in quality, it was obvious that the accountants were the guys in charge now. The 159 family, whilst not bad cars had very little 'Alfaness' under the skin, in some ways ie safety, bodystrength was good however the drivetrains owed much to GM and could be felt in the way they drove.
The Mito and Giulietta are essentially just re-skinned Fiats - they are far closer to the Fiat product than the 145/146/155 were to the Tipo - their development has been minimal.
The 4C and the 8C for me are irrelavances and slightly pointless. Great cars but flawed but are they really what Alfa need right now, and what's the point of a halo car when the rest of the range is so distant. I'm reminded of MG Rover with the SV supercar and look what happened to them!
I say the 75 was the last true Alfa, not because it was RWD, but because it was engineered by and for Alfa alone, with Alfa engines and an Alfa chassis. As was the 'Sud. This is not true of any subsequent Alfa, except the 4C.For me the first signs of neglect were apparent around 2004/5. The facelift 156 and 147s suffered a real downturn in quality, it was obvious that the accountants were the guys in charge now. The 159 family, whilst not bad cars had very little 'Alfaness' under the skin, in some ways ie safety, bodystrength was good however the drivetrains owed much to GM and could be felt in the way they drove.
The Mito and Giulietta are essentially just re-skinned Fiats - they are far closer to the Fiat product than the 145/146/155 were to the Tipo - their development has been minimal.
The 4C and the 8C for me are irrelavances and slightly pointless. Great cars but flawed but are they really what Alfa need right now, and what's the point of a halo car when the rest of the range is so distant. I'm reminded of MG Rover with the SV supercar and look what happened to them!
otolith said:
Is it prevented from being a real Volvo by being based on a platform shared by the Ford Focus?
Not at all. Chassis dynamics was not a core Volvo value that much I think but it has now been added. Volvo stuck to their guns and added new ones.They did not water down. Sales are biggest in their history today because they offer a unique package as always but made it more attractive.
crostonian said:
Don't know if you guys think I'm talking rubbish here but do you not think that people bought Alfas because they were inferior in so many ways to the opposition yet shone so strongly in one or two key areas that the negatives were forgiven?
I cannot think of one single way in which a 75 was inferior to its competition to be honest. And many in which it was superior. It would win on sound alone. Of how many Alfa's can we say that today? Actually I cannot think of any Alfa I had any trouble or gripes with. Apart from them being less and less fun (apart from the 4C).trashbat said:
Which bit of the Giulietta or 4C has GM parts?
As far as I have seen so far : Giulietta steering column and suspension parts right down to the wheel hubs. Would be interesting to be able to compare the structure of an Astra because they look awfully similar.trashbat said:
Read the investor material if you can be bothered. There's been no R&D freeze.
Ok, I've read it. Where can I by that Kamal SUV please? Where can I find a brochure on that Giulia? With all the investment going on since 2009, we are now a full 5 years later -generally accepted as the development cycle of a car- so where are all those competition beating shiny new Alfa's? None? Oh, but then surely we can now buy the Mito GTA they even made a commercial film on? Right?Of course there are Mercedes' made outside of Stuttgart. Of course there are Bentley's built on Volkswagen platforms. Of course there are Rollses with BMW engines. Of course when companies like Peugeot get into financial trouble they cut back their racing budget. And none of them are any less true to their core USP's. But Fiat has robbed Alfa of chassis, engine, engineering heritage, it's entire racing arm and its location. For decades. The only thing that is left is a drop of Alfa spirit in the form of the 4C.
The steering is from ZF, I believe, although I don't know about the column itself. The fact that it looks a bit like an Astra (or most other cars) does not count.
The time from start of design to production is supposed to be about two years, not five, but I already explained why very little has happened recently. It's not great but the whole set of terminal complaining about it is also long overcooked.
Automotive News Europe said:
ZF Lenksysteme GmbH provides the new Alfa Romeo Giulietta's dual-pinion electric power steering. The system comprises two pinions fitted directly onto the steering box rack. One is directly connected to the steering column, enabling precision steering, the other is connected to an electrical actuator in the engine compartment. This design differs from that found on the smaller Alfa MiTo and makes the Giulietta more agile. In addition to the better ride, the dual-pinion design improves safety because the mechanical parts are not on the steering column but are positioned further away from the driver. In the event of a collision, the steering column should impact the driver with reduced force because of its reduced bulk.
As for investment, you can find what they claim to be doing here: http://www.fcagroup.com/investorday/PresentationLi...The time from start of design to production is supposed to be about two years, not five, but I already explained why very little has happened recently. It's not great but the whole set of terminal complaining about it is also long overcooked.
Edited by trashbat on Monday 7th July 09:57
Some of the old MG Rover spyshots and renders look very much like the current gen Astra so I reckon the Astra is based on those designs! LOL!
Unfortunately we have to be patient to see what's coming through the Alfa pipeline, let's hope that wherever they collaborate with partners they put enough Alfa into their version to make their model stand above their partner's offerings.
Unfortunately we have to be patient to see what's coming through the Alfa pipeline, let's hope that wherever they collaborate with partners they put enough Alfa into their version to make their model stand above their partner's offerings.
Yes, well, I guess the Giulietta is a totally bespoke car and does not look like an Astra at all.
The fact it does not fit the usual Alfa standard bolt hole offsets but will happily take GM ones, after a whole raft of Alfa badged cars being based on GM stuff as a result of a GM-Fiat deal is pure coincidence. Of course. (I saw an article about automotive parts supply indicating the Giulietta shared its power steering with GM cars btw. I did not keep said supplier press blurb).
One should also not think of there being a lack of investment as Alfa has a line-up of two cars and a half for some time now, while competitors have ten times that. And of course we should only focus on the latest and greatest powerpoint presentation and not look at all the promises made in the past years - at each quarter, or investment shot.
Love that presentation btw, would love to who came up with the idea of showing the 4C and ranting about a 50/50 weight distribution (?!). Slide 18 tells us all we need to know really. If Mr Wester was working for me and showed this slideshow, he would be on the street before I saw the last slide. Investors voted with their money and shares plummeted after this was shown btw.
But hey, don't let me ruin the vibe. Let's just close your eyes and keep believing everything is fine.
The fact it does not fit the usual Alfa standard bolt hole offsets but will happily take GM ones, after a whole raft of Alfa badged cars being based on GM stuff as a result of a GM-Fiat deal is pure coincidence. Of course. (I saw an article about automotive parts supply indicating the Giulietta shared its power steering with GM cars btw. I did not keep said supplier press blurb).
One should also not think of there being a lack of investment as Alfa has a line-up of two cars and a half for some time now, while competitors have ten times that. And of course we should only focus on the latest and greatest powerpoint presentation and not look at all the promises made in the past years - at each quarter, or investment shot.
Love that presentation btw, would love to who came up with the idea of showing the 4C and ranting about a 50/50 weight distribution (?!). Slide 18 tells us all we need to know really. If Mr Wester was working for me and showed this slideshow, he would be on the street before I saw the last slide. Investors voted with their money and shares plummeted after this was shown btw.
But hey, don't let me ruin the vibe. Let's just close your eyes and keep believing everything is fine.
Alex said:
crostonian said:
I don't see how you can say Alfa died with the 75. The subsequent range of front wheel drive cars were successful particularly the 164, 155, 145, 147 and 156. The era also produced the 916 GTV and Spider which were highly regarded. If you are going to bemoan the lack of rear wheel drive then maybe you have to look back at the launch of the Alfasud as the beginning of the demise - I know some of my Alfa loving friends in Italy feel this way, northern Italian Alfa fans have little love for the Sud.
For me the first signs of neglect were apparent around 2004/5. The facelift 156 and 147s suffered a real downturn in quality, it was obvious that the accountants were the guys in charge now. The 159 family, whilst not bad cars had very little 'Alfaness' under the skin, in some ways ie safety, bodystrength was good however the drivetrains owed much to GM and could be felt in the way they drove.
The Mito and Giulietta are essentially just re-skinned Fiats - they are far closer to the Fiat product than the 145/146/155 were to the Tipo - their development has been minimal.
The 4C and the 8C for me are irrelavances and slightly pointless. Great cars but flawed but are they really what Alfa need right now, and what's the point of a halo car when the rest of the range is so distant. I'm reminded of MG Rover with the SV supercar and look what happened to them!
I say the 75 was the last true Alfa, not because it was RWD, but because it was engineered by and for Alfa alone, with Alfa engines and an Alfa chassis. As was the 'Sud. This is not true of any subsequent Alfa, except the 4C.For me the first signs of neglect were apparent around 2004/5. The facelift 156 and 147s suffered a real downturn in quality, it was obvious that the accountants were the guys in charge now. The 159 family, whilst not bad cars had very little 'Alfaness' under the skin, in some ways ie safety, bodystrength was good however the drivetrains owed much to GM and could be felt in the way they drove.
The Mito and Giulietta are essentially just re-skinned Fiats - they are far closer to the Fiat product than the 145/146/155 were to the Tipo - their development has been minimal.
The 4C and the 8C for me are irrelavances and slightly pointless. Great cars but flawed but are they really what Alfa need right now, and what's the point of a halo car when the rest of the range is so distant. I'm reminded of MG Rover with the SV supercar and look what happened to them!
And the es30 sz
And the 8c (chassis anyway)
Well, they're both cars with four wheels. It also looks a bit like a Hyundai i30, or the Renault Megane, and probably a bunch more of cars in that class.
The presentation picks out most of the same criticisms as you're making yourself, and then you moan about that!
IF they eventually do what they're saying, and IF it makes money, you're not going to have anything left to moan about, but I'll bet you'll still be unhappy.
The presentation picks out most of the same criticisms as you're making yourself, and then you moan about that!
IF they eventually do what they're saying, and IF it makes money, you're not going to have anything left to moan about, but I'll bet you'll still be unhappy.
trashbat said:
Well, they're both cars with four wheels. It also looks a bit like a Hyundai i30, or the Renault Megane, and probably a bunch more of cars in that class.
The presentation picks out most of the same criticisms as you're making yourself, and then you moan about that!
IF they eventually do what they're saying, and IF it makes money, you're not going to have anything left to moan about, but I'll bet you'll still be unhappy.
After two decades Fiat now says they understand how not making Alfa's is not increasing sales with people that like Alfa's.The presentation picks out most of the same criticisms as you're making yourself, and then you moan about that!
IF they eventually do what they're saying, and IF it makes money, you're not going to have anything left to moan about, but I'll bet you'll still be unhappy.
And as someone who loved those cars I am supposed to do what, applaud? As marketeer I am supposed to fall backward in awe?
Please explain : this Alfa bespoke Giulietta, why has Alfa engineered it not to be fun, not to sound like an Alfa, not to drive even like a 147 - let alone a 75? Why is it not faster and more nimble than competitors? Why does it not have better brakes? I mean if they had a blank sheet, why not make an actual Alfa? They went out of their way to make it as least Alfa as possible?
Please explain : with all the investment going on after Fiat took over Alfa, or after Marchionne took power, why has Alfa got less cars in it's line-up than either Maserati or Ferrari? Why is it we keep getting fed stories about how great things will be while nothing actually happens.
I showed the CAR magazine article to my local dealer, he said "I'll believe it when I can sign the orders".
Same here. I think we've been lied to long enough to have earned the right to be sceptical.
robemcdonald said:
And the 8c (chassis anyway)
I don't think it was,Wikipedia said:
The bodyshell is made of carbon fibre, produced by ATR Group. The carbon fibre body is fitted to a steel chassis , made by Italian company ITCA Produzione. The final assembly takes place at the Maserati factory in Modena, Italy.[Geneva show press info]
There was a lot of Maserati in the 8c, and Dallara played a part to play as well, sadly not as much as planned!So I don't really think it can been seen as a pure Alfa.
On topic,
I'd rather have Alfa owned by a parent company that actually made Alfas brilliant to drive, than have a 'pure' Alfa Romeo that was a disappointment. Regardless of who that company was. The 'character' of modern Alfas have been down to the looks and interior, though Alfa Romeo have a reputation for striking and beautiful aesthetics, but they shouldn't only be that. Although Alfas current range don't even have that now (4c excluded).
Hopefully things are changing with the Giulia model, as FIAT seem pretty keen for Maserati to go for the heart of the higher end German markets, even hoping to better the 911 with the Alfieri, so lets hope they have the same enthusiasm with the future Alfa models.
Edited by Fantuzzi on Monday 7th July 17:00
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
And the 8c (chassis anyway)
I don't think it was,Wikipedia said:
The bodyshell is made of carbon fibre, produced by ATR Group. The carbon fibre body is fitted to a steel chassis , made by Italian company ITCA Produzione. The final assembly takes place at the Maserati factory in Modena, Italy.[Geneva show press info]
There was a lot of Maserati in the 8c, and Dallara played a part to play as well, sadly not as much as planned!So I don't really think it can been seen as a pure Alfa.
Not to mention the Tesla / Hennesy Venom / Vauhall VX220 and so on.
Silly isnt it.
robemcdonald said:
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
And the 8c (chassis anyway)
I don't think it was,Wikipedia said:
The bodyshell is made of carbon fibre, produced by ATR Group. The carbon fibre body is fitted to a steel chassis , made by Italian company ITCA Produzione. The final assembly takes place at the Maserati factory in Modena, Italy.[Geneva show press info]
There was a lot of Maserati in the 8c, and Dallara played a part to play as well, sadly not as much as planned!So I don't really think it can been seen as a pure Alfa.
Not to mention the Tesla / Hennesy Venom / Vauhall VX220 and so on.
Silly isnt it.
It doesn't bother me (badges in general don't, nor does platform sharing or parent companies), but the comment saying the 8c was an 'Alfa' through and through seemed odd given how much attention was paid to the 8cs production being 'non Alfa' when it was released!
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
And the 8c (chassis anyway)
I don't think it was,Wikipedia said:
The bodyshell is made of carbon fibre, produced by ATR Group. The carbon fibre body is fitted to a steel chassis , made by Italian company ITCA Produzione. The final assembly takes place at the Maserati factory in Modena, Italy.[Geneva show press info]
There was a lot of Maserati in the 8c, and Dallara played a part to play as well, sadly not as much as planned!So I don't really think it can been seen as a pure Alfa.
Not to mention the Tesla / Hennesy Venom / Vauhall VX220 and so on.
Silly isnt it.
It doesn't bother me (badges in general don't, nor does platform sharing or parent companies), but the comment saying the 8c was an 'Alfa' through and through seemed odd given how much attention was paid to the 8cs production being 'non Alfa' when it was released!
Norwegian chassis, Japanese running gear, Swedish suspension, etc...
Let's have a quick look at Lamborghini. That V10 and it's mechanical bits seem to have a few audi badges on them.
Ok let's look at Volvo. That v40 looks nice.... Wait a minute it looks quite a bit like a focus underneath.
No? something more exotic like a pagani then?. Nice engine where did you get it?
The 8c is as much an Alfa as a Ibiza is as seat.
robemcdonald said:
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
And the 8c (chassis anyway)
I don't think it was,Wikipedia said:
The bodyshell is made of carbon fibre, produced by ATR Group. The carbon fibre body is fitted to a steel chassis , made by Italian company ITCA Produzione. The final assembly takes place at the Maserati factory in Modena, Italy.[Geneva show press info]
There was a lot of Maserati in the 8c, and Dallara played a part to play as well, sadly not as much as planned!So I don't really think it can been seen as a pure Alfa.
Not to mention the Tesla / Hennesy Venom / Vauhall VX220 and so on.
Silly isnt it.
It doesn't bother me (badges in general don't, nor does platform sharing or parent companies), but the comment saying the 8c was an 'Alfa' through and through seemed odd given how much attention was paid to the 8cs production being 'non Alfa' when it was released!
Norwegian chassis, Japanese running gear, Swedish suspension, etc...
Let's have a quick look at Lamborghini. That V10 and it's mechanical bits seem to have a few audi badges on them.
Ok let's look at Volvo. That v40 looks nice.... Wait a minute it looks quite a bit like a focus underneath.
No? something more exotic like a pagani then?. Nice engine where did you get it?
The 8c is as much an Alfa as a Ibiza is as seat.
I never said an 8c isn't a real Alfa. It is.
However,
The 8c uses a Maserati Granturismo engine, Maserati cambio corsa gearbox, Maserati QP floorplan, Maserati QP Wishbones, the chassis was tuned by Dallara, and the car was intended to be finished off by them before Alfa cut corners. Most of the major elements of the car were Maserati derived. So it isn't a pure an Alfa as Alfa Giulia GTA, or an 8c Monza.
The elise reference is a little cruel,yes it uses many other parts, but it was from a tiny company at a time that was rather financially strained, no one expected them to design, manufacture and build the entire car all by themselves.
The Lamborghini had come under massive criticism for its sharing with Audi, and many die hard fans don't consider it a 'real' Lamborghini because of things like this. It doesn't bother me, but anyone who said that it was as pure a Lamborghini as one of the classics wouldn't be wrong.
I don't know anything about Volvos, nor do I really care.
Once again, Pagani, is a smaller company who were clearly going to use a third party engine.
You seem to think I am oblivious to platform sharing, I am very aware of it, and its criticisms. Unless a car is a direct rebadge, I don't consider it 'not real', but I can understand and sympathise with those who think it isn't a 'pure' Alfa, Lambo, whatever. But I have no issue with it.
If I owned a Gallardo and someone told me it was an Audi, I wouldn't care, nor would I care if someone told me my Alfa was a Maserati or a Fiat. Its the nature of the beast in the modern automotive world, it means we get a lot of great cars as the platforms that work can get altered and reused to make variants and differing models with vastly different styling and character.
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
Fantuzzi said:
robemcdonald said:
And the 8c (chassis anyway)
I don't think it was,Wikipedia said:
The bodyshell is made of carbon fibre, produced by ATR Group. The carbon fibre body is fitted to a steel chassis , made by Italian company ITCA Produzione. The final assembly takes place at the Maserati factory in Modena, Italy.[Geneva show press info]
There was a lot of Maserati in the 8c, and Dallara played a part to play as well, sadly not as much as planned!So I don't really think it can been seen as a pure Alfa.
Not to mention the Tesla / Hennesy Venom / Vauhall VX220 and so on.
Silly isnt it.
It doesn't bother me (badges in general don't, nor does platform sharing or parent companies), but the comment saying the 8c was an 'Alfa' through and through seemed odd given how much attention was paid to the 8cs production being 'non Alfa' when it was released!
Norwegian chassis, Japanese running gear, Swedish suspension, etc...
Let's have a quick look at Lamborghini. That V10 and it's mechanical bits seem to have a few audi badges on them.
Ok let's look at Volvo. That v40 looks nice.... Wait a minute it looks quite a bit like a focus underneath.
No? something more exotic like a pagani then?. Nice engine where did you get it?
The 8c is as much an Alfa as a Ibiza is as seat.
I never said an 8c isn't a real Alfa. It is.
However,
The 8c uses a Maserati Granturismo engine, Maserati cambio corsa gearbox, Maserati QP floorplan, Maserati QP Wishbones, the chassis was tuned by Dallara, and the car was intended to be finished off by them before Alfa cut corners. Most of the major elements of the car were Maserati derived. So it isn't a pure an Alfa as Alfa Giulia GTA, or an 8c Monza.
The elise reference is a little cruel,yes it uses many other parts, but it was from a tiny company at a time that was rather financially strained, no one expected them to design, manufacture and build the entire car all by themselves.
The Lamborghini had come under massive criticism for its sharing with Audi, and many die hard fans don't consider it a 'real' Lamborghini because of things like this. It doesn't bother me, but anyone who said that it was as pure a Lamborghini as one of the classics wouldn't be wrong.
I don't know anything about Volvos, nor do I really care.
Once again, Pagani, is a smaller company who were clearly going to use a third party engine.
You seem to think I am oblivious to platform sharing, I am very aware of it, and its criticisms. Unless a car is a direct rebadge, I don't consider it 'not real', but I can understand and sympathise with those who think it isn't a 'pure' Alfa, Lambo, whatever. But I have no issue with it.
If I owned a Gallardo and someone told me it was an Audi, I wouldn't care, nor would I care if someone told me my Alfa was a Maserati or a Fiat. Its the nature of the beast in the modern automotive world, it means we get a lot of great cars as the platforms that work can get altered and reused to make variants and differing models with vastly different styling and character.
I really don't understand why alfas are such a topic of conversation on here. Especially by people who have never owned one and have no intention of doing so.
I the last week alone someone has claimed that Jeremy clarkson is the only reason they are still in business, and that Alfa are best known for their large capacity engines.
It seems like its a marque that everyone has an opinion about whether they know anything about it or not.
As a serial Alfa owner I sometimes get wound up about the ignorance and sometimes so much so I post a reply and frequently regret doing so.
It's a strange thing being passionate about a car brand. I've owned a fair variety of cars over the years (never of practically high value mind you) and in the few times I haven't had an Alfa in the garage I've always felt like something's missing.
The closest thing I can compare it with is music. In as much as you can love a band all your mates hate. The more they give you a hard time. The more stubbornly loyal you are. Then as time moves on the quality of the music dips, but you keep buying the albums until you realise you'd rather listen to the first two or three records than any of the new material.
Alfa are a bit like that. 4c accepted they haven't produced a car I would be interested in for 10 years or so, including the 8c.
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