When did Alfa Romeo die?
Discussion
Although Alfa still exists as a brand I'm not convinced that they really exist as a marque (seem like rebadged Fiats to me). Perhaps they can be resurrected but I'm not sure - might produce good cars but will they really be Alfas?
If one accepts the argument that Alfa as a marque doesn't really exist now, when did they die?
If one accepts the argument that Alfa as a marque doesn't really exist now, when did they die?
A bit like Audis perhaps?
Currently there's 3 distinct models in their range, one I can say is definitely directly related to a Fiat (Mito and Punto) which Fiats did they stick an Alfa badge on to get the Giulietta and 4c?
And then there's the new models on the way, definitely a marque in their own right.
What's your motivation, OP?
Currently there's 3 distinct models in their range, one I can say is definitely directly related to a Fiat (Mito and Punto) which Fiats did they stick an Alfa badge on to get the Giulietta and 4c?
And then there's the new models on the way, definitely a marque in their own right.
What's your motivation, OP?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Although not all the models use Fiat platforms I suspect that there is a lot of Fiat DNA in them and had they been launched as Fiats would anyone have said "but that is an Alfa!"Motivation is only regret that once great marques like Alfa and Lancia seem to have disappeared or been so diluted.
MLC166 said:
When they stopped making their own engines, most notably the V6.
They make their own engines. The 1750 in the 4C and GQV is all Alfa, meaningfully, since it's not used in any other car. Even the criticised 159-era cars had their own heads, and later, their entire engines.Well I'd say when they stopped competing in high level motorsport.
Alfa went from LeMan giants in the 30s, winning F1 titles in the 40s, a plethora of 50s and 60s success in sports cars and touring cars.
I think Chiti made Alfa Romeo very special, there was a perfectionism and brilliance by him, If I'm honest most of the Alfas are love are Autodeltas. When the FIAT took over a lot of the Autodelta engineers left as that had gone in the touring car element.
Chiti pushed to get Alfa into F1 in 77, I don't know if Alfa would have continued down a path like that without him.
But of course Alfa lingered on until the late 80s, and with DTM and touring cars in the 90s, but it hardly compared to their former glories, but they were still involved at least.
To me, Alfa is sports and performance cars. Which is why the 4c is a great start to their 'rebirth', all of the Giulia models are meant to be RWD which is a good sign that Alfa want to attract sporty drivers, so I think someone at FIAT has finally had their way with Alfa!
If you judge Alfa by 30s standards, of making high end 'supercars' to rival Bugatti and Bentley, then even post war Alfa will seem pretty much the dead period! But I think 'most' would say that the golden period was 30s-60s, both in terms of their completion cars with Autodelta and their roads cars which were top of their class.
Alfa have had many good cars since, the GTV6 got a lot of love, the SZ was a monster - shocking people with 1g cornering stats, so the Basilisk still had some venom, but until recently the marque had been rather dull and uninteresting, although the 159 and 8c were ludicrously attractive with some great engines, so many forgave them.
I think Alfa, like so many that have been around 100 years or so, will always go through hard times, they will always expand and contract in terms of their target audience.
But the future looks very, very good to my eyes. Especially if Ferrari share more rather than just leaving it up the Maserati for the hand me downs.
Alfa went from LeMan giants in the 30s, winning F1 titles in the 40s, a plethora of 50s and 60s success in sports cars and touring cars.
I think Chiti made Alfa Romeo very special, there was a perfectionism and brilliance by him, If I'm honest most of the Alfas are love are Autodeltas. When the FIAT took over a lot of the Autodelta engineers left as that had gone in the touring car element.
Chiti pushed to get Alfa into F1 in 77, I don't know if Alfa would have continued down a path like that without him.
But of course Alfa lingered on until the late 80s, and with DTM and touring cars in the 90s, but it hardly compared to their former glories, but they were still involved at least.
To me, Alfa is sports and performance cars. Which is why the 4c is a great start to their 'rebirth', all of the Giulia models are meant to be RWD which is a good sign that Alfa want to attract sporty drivers, so I think someone at FIAT has finally had their way with Alfa!
If you judge Alfa by 30s standards, of making high end 'supercars' to rival Bugatti and Bentley, then even post war Alfa will seem pretty much the dead period! But I think 'most' would say that the golden period was 30s-60s, both in terms of their completion cars with Autodelta and their roads cars which were top of their class.
Alfa have had many good cars since, the GTV6 got a lot of love, the SZ was a monster - shocking people with 1g cornering stats, so the Basilisk still had some venom, but until recently the marque had been rather dull and uninteresting, although the 159 and 8c were ludicrously attractive with some great engines, so many forgave them.
I think Alfa, like so many that have been around 100 years or so, will always go through hard times, they will always expand and contract in terms of their target audience.
But the future looks very, very good to my eyes. Especially if Ferrari share more rather than just leaving it up the Maserati for the hand me downs.
trashbat said:
hey make their own engines. The 1750 in the 4C and GQV is all Alfa, meaningfully, since it's not used in any other car. Even the criticised 159-era cars had their own heads, and later, their entire engines.
It's a great engine, it powers one of my cars and I love the way it does so. It has all the exhibits of an Alfa engine, including lust for life and fun.But it is designed by Fiat and built by Fiat. In my book it therefore is a Fiat, possibly Ferrari, imitation of an Alfa engine.
That's your problem then. What can they do? There's a legion of people that Alfa will never please and shouldn't bother trying.
I'm not saying Alfa under Fiat is sweetness and light by any means, but there's hope, and I'd rather that than they'd gone bust decades ago, or indeed the (less likely at the time) option of being owned by say VW. If any rose tinted types think that would have been better, keep it to yourself.
I'm not saying Alfa under Fiat is sweetness and light by any means, but there's hope, and I'd rather that than they'd gone bust decades ago, or indeed the (less likely at the time) option of being owned by say VW. If any rose tinted types think that would have been better, keep it to yourself.
Alex said:
Alfa died with the 75.
That's when it was mortally wounded I'd say. It went into coma (the Busso V6 lived on, in the SZ and GTA's for example). Then in 2005 the V6 production stopped and with it the last production activity in an actual Alfa plant. Busso died soon after. Arese design was closed in 2009 and with it anything Alfa. So official date of death: summer 2009 I'd say.Back in 2010 both VW and Mercedes were eyeing to buy up the plant itself. Don't know how that turned out. But it shows what a proven succesful car company would do...
IanMorewood said:
Last true Alfas probably the 164.
Fiat Croma, Lancia Thema, Saab 9000.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_Four_platform
trashbat said:
That's your problem then.
Since I have no money in Fiat, I fail to see how it would be my problem. In fact with all the choice on the market today and more offer than demand, the only one with a problem is Fiat and their shortsighted strategy of removing Alfa's uniqueness bit by bit.Alfa's yearly sales since Fiat took over have never reached the levels of sales when Alfa were run by stooges of a corrupt -according to a judge, not my opinion- stooges of the then socialist Italian government. Pretty clear where the problem is I'd say.
errek72 said:
Since I have no money in Fiat, I fail to see how it would be my problem. In fact with all the choice on the market today and more offer than demand, the only one with a problem is Fiat and their shortsighted strategy of removing Alfa's uniqueness bit by bit.
What I mean is it's all in your head. You admit you like the product but complain about what, the name on the door? So they can be turning out competent product, used only in Alfas, and you still won't be happy because it's part of a group.Honestly, what would you have them do or what would you prefer? A different group or what? Independence means bankruptcy.
I don't see how you can say Alfa died with the 75. The subsequent range of front wheel drive cars were successful particularly the 164, 155, 145, 147 and 156. The era also produced the 916 GTV and Spider which were highly regarded. If you are going to bemoan the lack of rear wheel drive then maybe you have to look back at the launch of the Alfasud as the beginning of the demise - I know some of my Alfa loving friends in Italy feel this way, northern Italian Alfa fans have little love for the Sud.
For me the first signs of neglect were apparent around 2004/5. The facelift 156 and 147s suffered a real downturn in quality, it was obvious that the accountants were the guys in charge now. The 159 family, whilst not bad cars had very little 'Alfaness' under the skin, in some ways ie safety, bodystrength was good however the drivetrains owed much to GM and could be felt in the way they drove.
The Mito and Giulietta are essentially just re-skinned Fiats - they are far closer to the Fiat product than the 145/146/155 were to the Tipo - their development has been minimal.
The 4C and the 8C for me are irrelavances and slightly pointless. Great cars but flawed but are they really what Alfa need right now, and what's the point of a halo car when the rest of the range is so distant. I'm reminded of MG Rover with the SV supercar and look what happened to them!
For me the first signs of neglect were apparent around 2004/5. The facelift 156 and 147s suffered a real downturn in quality, it was obvious that the accountants were the guys in charge now. The 159 family, whilst not bad cars had very little 'Alfaness' under the skin, in some ways ie safety, bodystrength was good however the drivetrains owed much to GM and could be felt in the way they drove.
The Mito and Giulietta are essentially just re-skinned Fiats - they are far closer to the Fiat product than the 145/146/155 were to the Tipo - their development has been minimal.
The 4C and the 8C for me are irrelavances and slightly pointless. Great cars but flawed but are they really what Alfa need right now, and what's the point of a halo car when the rest of the range is so distant. I'm reminded of MG Rover with the SV supercar and look what happened to them!
trashbat said:
hat I mean is it's all in your head. You admit you like the product but complain about what, the name on the door? So they can be turning out competent product, used only in Alfas, and you still won't be happy because it's part of a group.
Honestly, what would you have them do or what would you prefer? A different group or what? Independence means bankruptcy.
I do not complain, I state the fact that a car designed by Fiat using GM parts and built by Fiat is not an Alfa. In a marketplace that has consumers looking for uniquenes, fun and soul, as well as a high perceived value, Fiat has consistently sucked all those core values out of the marque. To the point where the Giulietta -one of the best cars I have owned- only has trace Alfa elements in it. Moreover the man in charge stopped R&D investment in Alfa in 2009 and announced the 159 was 'a mistake' while it was still being sold.Honestly, what would you have them do or what would you prefer? A different group or what? Independence means bankruptcy.
And you think the problem is in MY head?
Look at Volvo, look at Jaguar since they were bought and managed properly. Now tell me Alfa would not benefit from that.
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