My Black 4C

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Fantuzzi

3,297 posts

145 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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errek72 said:
You'll struggle to find any press outside the UK giving the same criticism that started with the *second* EVO test article on the car.
Edited by errek72 on Saturday 23 August 21:20
I was reading some Autobild reviews in German, my German isn't amazing, but the criticisms on the steering feel and the front end were still present, they rated the Elise as the drivers choice.

"Die erstaunlich taube (obwohl servofreie) Lenkung ist unpräzise, das Fahrverhalten trotz Gewichtsverteilung von 39:61 erschreckend untersteuernd."

errek72

943 posts

245 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Fantuzzi said:
I was reading some Autobild reviews in German, my German isn't amazing, but the criticisms on the steering feel and the front end were still present, they rated the Elise as the drivers choice.

"Die erstaunlich taube (obwohl servofreie) Lenkung ist unpräzise, das Fahrverhalten trotz Gewichtsverteilung von 39:61 erschreckend untersteuernd."
And you will find the same in their sister publications with the same format, auto express et al. Note that this was in a comparison test with a Cayman, which was faster.

Meanwhile should you be interested, here is a French review - which incidentally is the first I have seen where a journo is driving the car with some decent lines (and not trying to showboat).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CZO9CNXl2g&fea...

According to the reviewer, the car is set up to understeer on the track, but adjusting the braking (basically trail braking) cures it instantly.
I have not driven it on the track. On the road, I have never had mine understeer, but then by lack of run-out zones on public roads I tend to back off when the front goes light while pushing it. Note that comparing the lap times with a Porsche Spyder, on that track and in the hands of the same driver, the 4C was faster. In fact it was second fastest overall, way faster than a Megane RS Trophy to name one.

To me all this waffle about understeer, steering feel etc is definitely with the driver and not with the car.
It is definitely not an "everyone's friend" car. For that, the Germans are masters in woollyness.

Edited by errek72 on Monday 1st September 15:25

Fantuzzi

3,297 posts

145 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
errek72 said:
Fantuzzi said:
I was reading some Autobild reviews in German, my German isn't amazing, but the criticisms on the steering feel and the front end were still present, they rated the Elise as the drivers choice.

"Die erstaunlich taube (obwohl servofreie) Lenkung ist unpräzise, das Fahrverhalten trotz Gewichtsverteilung von 39:61 erschreckend untersteuernd."
And you will find the same in their sister publications with the same format, auto express et al. Note that this was in a comparison test with a Cayman, which was faster.
The magazine article was not from a test with the cayman, it was a test of the GT86 and Elise S. I'm guessing you were implying that the German car magazine may have some alliance with Porsche.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/alfa-4c-lotus-elise...

They rate the elise as the betters drivers car in that test.

errek72 said:
Meanwhile should you be interested, here is a French review - which incidentally is the first I have seen where a journo is driving the car with some decent lines (and not trying to showboat).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CZO9CNXl2g&fea...

According to the reviewer, the car is set up to understeer on the track, but adjusting the braking (basically trail braking) cures it instantly.
I have not driven it on the track. On the road, I have never had mine understeer, but then by lack of run-out zones on public roads I tend to back off when the front goes light while pushing it. Note that comparing the lap times with a Porsche Spyder, on that track and in the hands of the same driver, the 4C was faster. In fact it was second fastest overall, way faster than a Megane RS Trophy to name one.
The 4c has seen many favourable reviews, even from the English (!). I was highlighting that the criticism aren't only present in the British motoring press. I'm not surprised at the laptimes, it is bound to be fast.

The reviewer mentioned body roll, which surprised me, and it appears some owners on the 4cowners forum as, it appears you owners are never happy with a review! wink

errek72 said:
To me all this waffle about understeer, steering feel etc is definitely with the driver and not with the car.
It is definitely not an "everyone's friend" car. For that, the Germans are masters in woollyness.

Edited by errek72 on Monday 1st September 15:25
I disagree as you know, the criticisms clearly aren't just a British thing as you have suggested. I find it difficult to believe that the criticisms are due to inexperienced drivers/poor drivers across numerous magazines.

Light, midengined cars often get criticism for snappy handling, firm rides, lack of refinement and lack of 'idiot proofing' - see the Lotus S1 Elise for that. But understeer and lack of steering feel tend not to be something that gets mentioned.


Out of interest, you clearly feel that the negative reviews are by poor drivers with little understanding of light weight 'proper' sports cars, so why do you think the modern Elise hasn't suffered the same criticism?

errek72

943 posts

245 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
The same text appears in a comparison with the Cayman GTS published by the same publication some weeks after the one you mention. Hence my reference. You are of course free to think of the 4C - and me for that matter - whatever you like.

I am not saying there is a sinister plot against the 4C but I do realise there is competition between both car companies and between news outlets.
Having owned the car for some months now, it allows me to distinguish the bullstters from the rest.
Opinions are personal so what is a large cabin for one person can be tiny one for the other. But the understeer, yes, that is simply about balance. This is a car EVEN I can balance on the throttle.

The Elise and 4C are different tastes of the same type of car. I like Alfa's but had a hard time deciding.
In the end I chose the 4C as I think it is prettier. Just. On and off the track I doubt there is much difference in fun, speed and joy the cars bring. In hindsight the electronic safety nets in the 4C have saved me from situations I wonder if those in the Elise could have. Would be nice if journo's would test that in stead of making up issues or decide on a car after half an hour's driving.

To give an example the biggest issue I have with the car is the ride height. I can live with it but it can be a pain. So far I have only read or seen one review giving it more than a sentence worth of attention.


errek72

943 posts

245 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Fantuzzi said:
Light, midengined cars often get criticism for snappy handling, firm rides, lack of refinement and lack of 'idiot proofing' - see the Lotus S1 Elise for that. But understeer and lack of steering feel tend not to be something that gets mentioned.


Out of interest, you clearly feel that the negative reviews are by poor drivers with little understanding of light weight 'proper' sports cars, so why do you think the modern Elise hasn't suffered the same criticism?
Top Gear, Series one, Episode Seven. It is on their website. A Lotus chassis engineer explains why the Elise has built-in underteer and how it can be overcome by the driver balancing the car.

On the body roll of the 4C, it's not in the French review, so I wonder what you mean.

Fantuzzi

3,297 posts

145 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
errek72 said:
The same text appears in a comparison with the Cayman GTS published by the same publication some weeks after the one you mention. Hence my reference.
I wasn't aware of that, I only have access to the online reviews, and the cayman vs 4c test was rather short sadly!

errek72 said:
I am not saying there is a sinister plot against the 4C but I do realise there is competition between both car companies and between news outlets.
From your posts in that other thread, it seemed clear that you felt the UK press were bias towards Porsche, regardless of how the cars drove. That would seem to be sinister to me, I'd hate to think that a car's reputation was being tarnished due to bribery.

errek72 said:
Having owned the car for some months now, it allows me to distinguish the bullstters from the rest.
I appreciate that, but in all due respect, I have no idea how hard you drive, or your car history. At least with a journo I know that they have driven the main competitors (elise, cayman, etc), and with videos, you can judge a little of their talent behind the wheel.

I know a lot of people who have the 'its good enough for me' attitude and that's fine, not everyone drives like a mentalist.

errek72 said:
The Elise and 4C are different tastes of the same type of car. I like Alfa's but had a hard time deciding.
In the end I chose the 4C as I think it is prettier.
If you've driven the elise as well then that's completely cool, you know what you like and what suits your driving style. Looks seem to be a big aspect for Alfa owners.

errek72

943 posts

245 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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There certainly is a positive bias towards all things Golf or Porsche in a lot of media outlets.
And there is the template / clichéd pattern that I do notice most UK outlets seem to like.
It looks to me to be either mental laziness or a pre-set strategy.
Probably for a number of reasons, likely all to do with marketing and product positioning - of either the media outlet or the car brands.
If you think that sinister that is up to you. To me that looks like business strategy.
Albeit a dumb, stupid and short-sighted one.

For example with a certain corner Alfa will always be : "great" in the first short test, "flawed" in the second test "on UK roads" (get over yourselves, the roads in Scotland I drove on are better than in most EU countries), and then the end sum "ah, Alfa, nice try but you really are incapable of building a decent car, haha, readers just buy the latest German offering". Actually I recently saw a similar (UK) test on Maserati in Evo like that. Laughable really.

I know of course the EVO clique and their ilk like to portray themselves as enthusiasts that would write about cars even if it would not bring them money. But the reality is that it brings them money and freebies and they live off it.

As to me, nobody here knows how I drive and nobody needs to. If you want to know how a car drives IRL the only way to find out for sure is to have a go yourself. RSR has 4C's available for the Ring come April I hear. Book yourself a drive if you like.

Stuart J

1,301 posts

256 months

Thursday 4th September 2014
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Looking forward to experiencing it !!

Re understeer its always been my belief that cars are generally set up by the manufacturers for Joe public with under steer as Mr average & that includes to a lesser or greater extent most of us are better at saving a car with understeer than oversteer, the mere human panic reaction to slow even if not breaking adds more weight to the front making the front bite & the rear lighten. With oversteer the instinct to slow when it starts to be going boobs up lightens the back even more & may result in you having the opertunity to look back up the road through the windscreen to quickly analyse where the accident you are about to have started.

Either way more important to me is what have people done with the front number plate if even fitted ???

Fantuzzi

3,297 posts

145 months

Thursday 4th September 2014
quotequote all
errek72 said:
Fantuzzi said:
Light, midengined cars often get criticism for snappy handling, firm rides, lack of refinement and lack of 'idiot proofing' - see the Lotus S1 Elise for that. But understeer and lack of steering feel tend not to be something that gets mentioned.


Out of interest, you clearly feel that the negative reviews are by poor drivers with little understanding of light weight 'proper' sports cars, so why do you think the modern Elise hasn't suffered the same criticism?
Top Gear, Series one, Episode Seven. It is on their website. A Lotus chassis engineer explains why the Elise has built-in underteer and how it can be overcome by the driver balancing the car.

On the body roll of the 4C, it's not in the French review, so I wonder what you mean.
Sorry, I missed this post.

Yeah the s2 elise got a lot of criticisms from lotus fans with the skinny front tyres to try and make it less snappy on the limit. I know they had a wider front option as well. I think we all know any car produced in a largish number would have understeer set into its dynamics, it just seemed to be something that people brought up more than you'd expect when compared to the elise. The S1 was planned to be rather small in terms of numbers, but when it got popular the s2 was aimed at a far wider market including getting it legal for the U.S

Plus, whilst the understeer was mentioned by most journos at the time, I really wouldn't take what Jeremy Clarkson says a literal representative of the cars behaviour. Any small aspect, positive or negative, tends to be massively exaggerated to make better telly, rather than better motoring journalism. Take the 8c review, pretty everyone said 'yeah its good but feels a little unpolished', Clarkson basically said it was a bag of balls. Also weirdly he didn't like the sound it made in one early video, then in the TG episode said it was amazing, I wonder if the mass of people saying it was amazing changed his mind!

The body roll thing was brought up in the accompanying forum thread for the video on the 4c owners club, my French is crap so it appeared the more multilingual members found it mentioned in the video. After reading the thread through again, it seems that the owner was speaking of his own experiences rather than referencing something in the video, sorry, I misread.

"I am surprised at the amount of body roll, for such a low, light, wide car with racing suspension. Might just be the result of very late braking going in, and those very big brakes, but I have noticed this a lot - that the car wants to dive outside front and cock a hind wheel in corners. Not just in this video. Tallinn can probably fill us in on that. I'm sure it is not something that most of us will have to worry about with our cars, though!"

I thought he was referencing something the reviewer had said not just what he saw, then there was a series of posts about curing roll and people disputing that there was any etc. Sorry, I misunderstood.

iva cosworth

44,044 posts

162 months

Thursday 4th September 2014
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When's the OP taking delivery ?

It says September in the OP.

errek72

943 posts

245 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
Stuart J said:
Looking forward to experiencing it !!

Re understeer its always been my belief that cars are generally set up by the manufacturers for Joe public with under steer as Mr average & that includes to a lesser or greater extent most of us are better at saving a car with understeer than oversteer, the mere human panic reaction to slow even if not breaking adds more weight to the front making the front bite & the rear lighten. With oversteer the instinct to slow when it starts to be going boobs up lightens the back even more & may result in you having the opertunity to look back up the road through the windscreen to quickly analyse where the accident you are about to have started.

Either way more important to me is what have people done with the front number plate if even fitted ???
I've used a sticker and park it with mostly the rear visible. So far no fine (sticker plates are illegal where I live). I'll probably first get a warning anyway. The car comes with a plate holder but that means drilling holes. Other ways to avoid is to mount the plate on the front tow hook or drill the holes in the bumper radius where it folds into the "moustache" or opening. User manual forbids placing the plate over any air duct. Some owners just don't fit it.

On human panic reactions: the electronic nannies are amazing -although they obviously have their limits.


Edited by errek72 on Friday 5th September 09:12

errek72

943 posts

245 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
Fantuzzi said:
The body roll thing was brought up in the accompanying forum thread for the video on the 4c owners club, my French is crap so it appeared the more multilingual members found it mentioned in the video. After reading the thread through again, it seems that the owner was speaking of his own experiences rather than referencing something in the video, sorry, I misread.

"I am surprised at the amount of body roll, for such a low, light, wide car with racing suspension. Might just be the result of very late braking going in, and those very big brakes, but I have noticed this a lot - that the car wants to dive outside front and cock a hind wheel in corners. Not just in this video. Tallinn can probably fill us in on that. I'm sure it is not something that most of us will have to worry about with our cars, though!"

I thought he was referencing something the reviewer had said not just what he saw, then there was a series of posts about curing roll and people disputing that there was any etc. Sorry, I misunderstood.
It happens. The comments in the video -the guy races 458 in GT class for a living- were extremely positive, with the comment that the car would be 1 to 2 seconds quicker on that track if the setup was changed.
Lots of guessing on what the issues are in owner forums by people eagerly awaiting the car they bought but never saw IRL or drove. Add to that the "it is Italian so there must be something wrong" stance in some press and assumptions get made. I see people eager to replace the radio because it is crap (it is) while being oblivious to the fact that no matter how good the radio is, you won't hear much of it anyway if you fit the sports exhaust. Etc. Best not to assume (and not to spec the radio imho).

Body roll is minimal - yes a radical will have less, most other sports cars for the road, I think not. The reason and trade-off is probably the really rather low ride height.
Absence of any body roll to speak of is one of the things that strike you when you first take a quick short turn, or in particular when you take a small roundabout. Actually the very first moment driving it is sensory overload so you might actually miss out on it at first.

Grandad7184

2,014 posts

134 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
iva cosworth said:
When's the OP taking delivery ?

It says September in the OP.
not the op thou it is his dad

Fantuzzi

3,297 posts

145 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
errek72 said:
Fantuzzi said:
The body roll thing was brought up in the accompanying forum thread for the video on the 4c owners club, my French is crap so it appeared the more multilingual members found it mentioned in the video. After reading the thread through again, it seems that the owner was speaking of his own experiences rather than referencing something in the video, sorry, I misread.

"I am surprised at the amount of body roll, for such a low, light, wide car with racing suspension. Might just be the result of very late braking going in, and those very big brakes, but I have noticed this a lot - that the car wants to dive outside front and cock a hind wheel in corners. Not just in this video. Tallinn can probably fill us in on that. I'm sure it is not something that most of us will have to worry about with our cars, though!"

I thought he was referencing something the reviewer had said not just what he saw, then there was a series of posts about curing roll and people disputing that there was any etc. Sorry, I misunderstood.
It happens. The comments in the video -the guy races 458 in GT class for a living- were extremely positive, with the comment that the car would be 1 to 2 seconds quicker on that track if the setup was changed.
Lots of guessing on what the issues are in owner forums by people eagerly awaiting the car they bought but never saw IRL or drove. Add to that the "it is Italian so there must be something wrong" stance in some press and assumptions get made. I see people eager to replace the radio because it is crap (it is) while being oblivious to the fact that no matter how good the radio is, you won't hear much of it anyway if you fit the sports exhaust. Etc. Best not to assume (and not to spec the radio imho).

Body roll is minimal - yes a radical will have less, most other sports cars for the road, I think not. The reason and trade-off is probably the really rather low ride height.
Absence of any body roll to speak of is one of the things that strike you when you first take a quick short turn, or in particular when you take a small roundabout. Actually the very first moment driving it is sensory overload so you might actually miss out on it at first.
Yeah I was pretty sure it wouldn't roll, the comments were strange, aside from its weight, the car is very wide so Id be surprised if there was any. The only reason for roll in a light, stiff car is wrong geo settings or poor tire choice!

With regards to the 'set up', what were the changes he recommended? The race pack came with semi slick tire choice didn't it?

bobo

Original Poster:

1,702 posts

277 months

Sunday 7th September 2014
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Ok picked it up.... better than i thought. Review soon...

russ turner

239 posts

207 months

Wednesday 10th September 2014
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bit late in the day but my local Alfa dealer had 2, one red, one black









didn't see the red one but it did look good in black and others have said, good to see a mainstream manufacturer producing something a bit different from the norm

braddo

10,379 posts

187 months

Thursday 11th September 2014
quotequote all
Fantuzzi said:
Yeah I was pretty sure it wouldn't roll, the comments were strange, aside from its weight, the car is very wide so Id be surprised if there was any. The only reason for roll in a light, stiff car is wrong geo settings or poor tire choice!
Wrong.

A light car does not need overly stiff suspension, because there is less weight to control. That's why a typical Elise will have much softer suspension than one expects, and it's why they ride so much better than most sports saloons. A 4C's 'stiff' suspension will still be softer than a typical sports saloon and they will have some bodyroll at the limit.

For a road car, you want some roll and compliance for better roadholding. If the suspension is too stiff, on bumpy/poor roads the wheels will not maintain as good contact with the road. This is exacerbated in light cars, e.g. Elises can get very skittish on rough roads.

Back in the day (60s/70s/80s) Alfas always had bodyroll and I have seen contemporary car mag tests that commented about it. It made the car look roly poly on track, but ultimately it gave them better roadholding on the roads (where they belonged).

Alfa know what they are doing with the 4C. Granted, they are not as good as Lotus. But no-one is - Lotus are literally the best car manufacturer in the world at ride/handling tuning.

Fantuzzi

3,297 posts

145 months

Thursday 11th September 2014
quotequote all
braddo said:
Fantuzzi said:
Yeah I was pretty sure it wouldn't roll, the comments were strange, aside from its weight, the car is very wide so Id be surprised if there was any. The only reason for roll in a light, stiff car is wrong geo settings or poor tire choice!
Wrong.

A light car does not need overly stiff suspension, because there is less weight to control. That's why a typical Elise will have much softer suspension than one expects, and it's why they ride so much better than most sports saloons. A 4C's 'stiff' suspension will still be softer than a typical sports saloon and they will have some bodyroll at the limit.

For a road car, you want some roll and compliance for better roadholding. If the suspension is too stiff, on bumpy/poor roads the wheels will not maintain as good contact with the road. This is exacerbated in light cars, e.g. Elises can get very skittish on rough roads.

Back in the day (60s/70s/80s) Alfas always had bodyroll and I have seen contemporary car mag tests that commented about it. It made the car look roly poly on track, but ultimately it gave them better roadholding on the roads (where they belonged).

Alfa know what they are doing with the 4C. Granted, they are not as good as Lotus. But no-one is - Lotus are literally the best car manufacturer in the world at ride/handling tuning.
Sorry? In what way am I wrong? You seem to have given a response to a comment I didn't make...I wasn't saying a light car needed stiff suspension, but that the 4c, due to the cf tub, was stiff. Even compared to a modern elise. Hence my surprise at comments of body roll.

I am quite aware of all you have written (not needing stiffer set ups for lighter cars, lotus having an excellent rep for their ride etc). On a sub 1000kg, modern sports car, you shouldn't notice roll to any significant degree.

Edited by Fantuzzi on Thursday 11th September 20:43

braddo

10,379 posts

187 months

Friday 12th September 2014
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The stiffness of the tub has absolutely nothing to do with body roll, though. confused

It is primarily down to roll stiffness, i.e. anti-roll bars and spring rates. I guess centre of gravity and the height of roll centres also play a part.

I don't know why one would assume that a small, light sportscar won't have body roll. If the car is to have vaguely acceptable ride quality and keep the wheels (fronts, especially) on the ground I would expect the opposite.


Fantuzzi

3,297 posts

145 months

Friday 12th September 2014
quotequote all
braddo said:
The stiffness of the tub has absolutely nothing to do with body roll, though. confused

It is primarily down to roll stiffness, i.e. anti-roll bars and spring rates. I guess centre of gravity and the height of roll centres also play a part.

I don't know why one would assume that a small, light sportscar won't have body roll. If the car is to have vaguely acceptable ride quality and keep the wheels (fronts, especially) on the ground I would expect the opposite.
The tub does have an effect the feel of the car, and its apparent 'stiffness', pretty much everyone who has driven one has commented on that element of it over the aluminium elise in terms of its chassis feel and the 'stiffness'. It would seem odd to me, given how excellent even 1500kg sports cars are at body control in 2014, to design a car with a cf tub for stiffness, then ignore any excessive roll. Hence why I commented on the idea of a 2014 mid engined, 1 tonne sports car rolling to any significant degree. Yes, all cars have roll, that roll is altered by the spring rate and many other elements, but to have any noticeable roll from a 4c (unless you have been driving BAC Monos before jumping in one) it would seem really odd. I really don't see why you are confused, its very clear what I mean. I feel you are being rather contrived, especially regarding the 'light sports cars should roll more' comment.