Alfa Romeo - Remap Fiasco Advice Needed
Discussion
Hi There,
I am in need of some advice from someone who knows what they're talking about.
I am the owner of an Alfa Romeo MiTo 1.4 (T-Jet Engine) 155BHP - 2010 - (56000 miles). Whilst I know this is not the quickest car around I have set myself on tuning and modifying the car. To date I have: new suspension, uprated brakes, LSD, full stainless steel exhaust with sports CAT etc.... The engine is all stock with the only exception being a K&N Air Filter.
My aspirations are to hit 180BHP without making any engine modifications (which is apparently possible and has been achieved by owners of the same car). If I want anything further the turbo needs to be swapped out and then we'd be looking at 230+.
Now the issue I am having concerns remappers and dynos...... In short transparency, honesty and integrity. In truth, I am very confused....
The story in-short:
1.
In Feb 2015 I visited company (X) for a remap and dyno run of my car, an independent remap garage with a rolling road. The deal was £260 for a remap and before and after dyno run; pretty good I thought.
Firstly the car was dynoned to see how the stock map was performing. Surprinslgy it showed 163BHP at peak (Above the manufacturers spec) at this point the only modification on the car was the K&N Air filter (the exhaust was stock).
A remap was then applied to the car which increased boost, RPM limiter etc. It was held back a little due to the stock CAT getting too hot. This was then also dynoed on the rolling road, producing a healthy 176BHP, a nice increase to get started on which was noticeably better when driving.
2.
In June 2015 I visited a leading garage for Alfa Romeo's with the concern of a misfire, Company Y. The misfire couldn't be found but I was recommended to restore the car back to stock map to see if this would solve the issue.
After some persuasion company Y applied their own remap to the car to replace the existing map by company X.
Company Y has a negative perception of Company X and accuses them of potential foul play with artificially tampering rolling road results. Company Y also has a negative perception on rolling roads as a whole, considering them inaccurate and dependent on many variables.
The map applied by Company Y feels 'Ok' not majorly noticeable improvements over the map by Company X. It was supposedly more aggressive as I had recently removed the stock exhaust and replaced it.
3.
Once the new remap was applied by Company Y, I decided I would run the car on the same rolling road company X used originally to compare the results. To my surprise the new map only achieved 153BHP, which is less than the factory spec and lesser than my first original run on the same rolling road months before.
Back to ask company Y to fix this.
4.
Company Y once again believes some foul play may be taking place by company X and the rolling road, those results do not look accurate. Instead company Y organises some time at a Hub Dyno, which would be more accurate.
Today I visited the HubDyno with the car and was immediately told the figures would be lower as it's a hub dyno, I should expect 120HP. The whole flywheel/wheel difference was explained to me here. Roughly 20% lost due to transmission etc etc...
Three maps were run on the hub dyno. Firstly the OEM, secondly company X's and finally company Y's. There's an evident gap between the maps so improvements have been made with company Y's map.
Yet the figures do not seem to match or make sense. It would suggest that even with 20% loss taken into account my horsepower isn't exceeding the manfuactuer spec by much if any.
So what's the problem? I'm confused.
- I don't know what my car is actually achieving as the rolling road is in BHP (Which most go by) the hub dyno is in wheel power, so what is my car actually achieving according to these results?
- Who to trust (Is this a case of competitiveness and dishonesty)
- Is something wrong with the car (mechanically speaking, is this being overlooked)
- Am I expecting too much and realistically is everyone being mislead with the cars potential?
Would greatly appreciate some advice and educating where necessary!
Cheers!
Matt
I am in need of some advice from someone who knows what they're talking about.
I am the owner of an Alfa Romeo MiTo 1.4 (T-Jet Engine) 155BHP - 2010 - (56000 miles). Whilst I know this is not the quickest car around I have set myself on tuning and modifying the car. To date I have: new suspension, uprated brakes, LSD, full stainless steel exhaust with sports CAT etc.... The engine is all stock with the only exception being a K&N Air Filter.
My aspirations are to hit 180BHP without making any engine modifications (which is apparently possible and has been achieved by owners of the same car). If I want anything further the turbo needs to be swapped out and then we'd be looking at 230+.
Now the issue I am having concerns remappers and dynos...... In short transparency, honesty and integrity. In truth, I am very confused....
The story in-short:
1.
In Feb 2015 I visited company (X) for a remap and dyno run of my car, an independent remap garage with a rolling road. The deal was £260 for a remap and before and after dyno run; pretty good I thought.
Firstly the car was dynoned to see how the stock map was performing. Surprinslgy it showed 163BHP at peak (Above the manufacturers spec) at this point the only modification on the car was the K&N Air filter (the exhaust was stock).
A remap was then applied to the car which increased boost, RPM limiter etc. It was held back a little due to the stock CAT getting too hot. This was then also dynoed on the rolling road, producing a healthy 176BHP, a nice increase to get started on which was noticeably better when driving.
2.
In June 2015 I visited a leading garage for Alfa Romeo's with the concern of a misfire, Company Y. The misfire couldn't be found but I was recommended to restore the car back to stock map to see if this would solve the issue.
After some persuasion company Y applied their own remap to the car to replace the existing map by company X.
Company Y has a negative perception of Company X and accuses them of potential foul play with artificially tampering rolling road results. Company Y also has a negative perception on rolling roads as a whole, considering them inaccurate and dependent on many variables.
The map applied by Company Y feels 'Ok' not majorly noticeable improvements over the map by Company X. It was supposedly more aggressive as I had recently removed the stock exhaust and replaced it.
3.
Once the new remap was applied by Company Y, I decided I would run the car on the same rolling road company X used originally to compare the results. To my surprise the new map only achieved 153BHP, which is less than the factory spec and lesser than my first original run on the same rolling road months before.
Back to ask company Y to fix this.
4.
Company Y once again believes some foul play may be taking place by company X and the rolling road, those results do not look accurate. Instead company Y organises some time at a Hub Dyno, which would be more accurate.
Today I visited the HubDyno with the car and was immediately told the figures would be lower as it's a hub dyno, I should expect 120HP. The whole flywheel/wheel difference was explained to me here. Roughly 20% lost due to transmission etc etc...
Three maps were run on the hub dyno. Firstly the OEM, secondly company X's and finally company Y's. There's an evident gap between the maps so improvements have been made with company Y's map.
Yet the figures do not seem to match or make sense. It would suggest that even with 20% loss taken into account my horsepower isn't exceeding the manfuactuer spec by much if any.
So what's the problem? I'm confused.
- I don't know what my car is actually achieving as the rolling road is in BHP (Which most go by) the hub dyno is in wheel power, so what is my car actually achieving according to these results?
- Who to trust (Is this a case of competitiveness and dishonesty)
- Is something wrong with the car (mechanically speaking, is this being overlooked)
- Am I expecting too much and realistically is everyone being mislead with the cars potential?
Would greatly appreciate some advice and educating where necessary!
Cheers!
Matt
Edited by mattkidd on Tuesday 11th August 00:22
Chap I know has the Magneti Marelli box on his MiTo QV and has had no issues. His is putting out well over 200bhp - no running issues at all other than at its peak of 235bhp it needed 99ron, but misfired at the top end on 95ron. He's now wound it back a touch and all is well. Could be worth looking at this option, as Marelli do the OEM ECU for the car - I think AHM do these in the UK.
Phone this is of help and good luck :-)
Phone this is of help and good luck :-)
StescoG66 said:
Chap I know has the Magneti Marelli box on his MiTo QV and has had no issues. His is putting out well over 200bhp - no running issues at all other than at its peak of 235bhp it needed 99ron, but misfired at the top end on 95ron. He's now wound it back a touch and all is well. Could be worth looking at this option, as Marelli do the OEM ECU for the car - I think AHM do these in the UK.
Phone this is of help and good luck :-)
There is no way the stock turbo can push out even more than 210.Phone this is of help and good luck :-)
Having said that the MM box is one of the better products on the market.
_Superleggera_ said:
StescoG66 said:
Chap I know has the Magneti Marelli box on his MiTo QV and has had no issues. His is putting out well over 200bhp - no running issues at all other than at its peak of 235bhp it needed 99ron, but misfired at the top end on 95ron. He's now wound it back a touch and all is well. Could be worth looking at this option, as Marelli do the OEM ECU for the car - I think AHM do these in the UK.
Phone this is of help and good luck :-)
There is no way the stock turbo can push out even more than 210.Phone this is of help and good luck :-)
Having said that the MM box is one of the better products on the market.
Read this: Info from a very respectable Dutch tuner:
Original
http://www.squadra-tuning.nl/autos/categorie/200/a...
Google translate
https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl...
In short the Mito 155 seems to be limited by it's turbo and injectors.
Original
http://www.squadra-tuning.nl/autos/categorie/200/a...
Google translate
https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl...
In short the Mito 155 seems to be limited by it's turbo and injectors.
DeltonaS said:
Read this: Info from a very respectable Dutch tuner:
Original
http://www.squadra-tuning.nl/autos/categorie/200/a...
Google translate
https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl...
In short the Mito 155 seems to be limited by it's turbo and injectors.
Makes sense really. Expecting a reliable 200bhp from a 1.4 16v sounds wrong to me, but everyone is getting on the remapping bandwagon which is fine if you don't push the boundary's to the extreme. these guys saying mines been reliable, we'll maybe it has so far but the life of the engine and it's components must be considerably shortened. That's why I wouldn't buy a remapped car even if done sensibly, as the owner has had all the fun and probably left me with the future problems. Original
http://www.squadra-tuning.nl/autos/categorie/200/a...
Google translate
https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl...
In short the Mito 155 seems to be limited by it's turbo and injectors.
WarnieV6GT said:
Expecting a reliable 200bhp from a 1.4 16v sounds wrong to me,
Its not just about the mapping - its also about the supporting hardwareAnyone can wind up the boost to the max and get decent pub figures, but doing it reliably takes more effort (and cash...)
I'm running up to 480bhp from 2 litres, so way more bhp per litre than a 200bhp Mito. However, the engine has now done about 300,000 miles - yes, its had two rebuilds, but both of these were caused by me being daft (1st time was a bent rod due to running WAY too much boost and the second was a melted piston due to running WAY too much boost AND race fuel.....)
With Honda, Merc, VW and now Ford all delivering 300+ bhp from a 2-litre lump from the factory, you'd have to say that 150 bhp per litre with good reliability is perfectly achievable
The difference with the Mito is that it doesn't have the hardware as standard to give 200+ bhp reliably (eg turbo, intercooler, injectors, etc) - the fact that the hotter Fiat 500s are giving 180bhp shows that the engine is more than capable of delivering the power , as long as the rest of the package is up to it
Nigel_O said:
Its not just about the mapping - its also about the supporting hardware
Anyone can wind up the boost to the max and get decent pub figures, but doing it reliably takes more effort (and cash...)
I'm running up to 480bhp from 2 litres, so way more bhp per litre than a 200bhp Mito. However, the engine has now done about 300,000 miles - yes, its had two rebuilds, but both of these were caused by me being daft (1st time was a bent rod due to running WAY too much boost and the second was a melted piston due to running WAY too much boost AND race fuel.....)
With Honda, Merc, VW and now Ford all delivering 300+ bhp from a 2-litre lump from the factory, you'd have to say that 150 bhp per litre with good reliability is perfectly achievable
The difference with the Mito is that it doesn't have the hardware as standard to give 200+ bhp reliably (eg turbo, intercooler, injectors, etc) - the fact that the hotter Fiat 500s are giving 180bhp shows that the engine is more than capable of delivering the power , as long as the rest of the package is up to it
Nigel your car is just a beast! Race fuel as well, love it lolAnyone can wind up the boost to the max and get decent pub figures, but doing it reliably takes more effort (and cash...)
I'm running up to 480bhp from 2 litres, so way more bhp per litre than a 200bhp Mito. However, the engine has now done about 300,000 miles - yes, its had two rebuilds, but both of these were caused by me being daft (1st time was a bent rod due to running WAY too much boost and the second was a melted piston due to running WAY too much boost AND race fuel.....)
With Honda, Merc, VW and now Ford all delivering 300+ bhp from a 2-litre lump from the factory, you'd have to say that 150 bhp per litre with good reliability is perfectly achievable
The difference with the Mito is that it doesn't have the hardware as standard to give 200+ bhp reliably (eg turbo, intercooler, injectors, etc) - the fact that the hotter Fiat 500s are giving 180bhp shows that the engine is more than capable of delivering the power , as long as the rest of the package is up to it
But you have the know how to do properly (maybe a little over the top
) whereas from what I've come across some folk, just as you say, wind up the boost without any care for the internals, let alone upgrade suspension and brakes to cope with it. So when they sell it on the new owner can be left with in a load of trouble. That's why It would be doubtful that I'd ever buy one remapped, as for how much it costs £2-250ish, I'd rather have it done myself with piece of mind that it's been done sensibly.
I still think the mito's standard 155bhp from a 1.4 is more than enough, but like you say the boundaries have been pushed much higher than that from the factory. I do wonder though what the drivability's like though on a Mito 1.4 pushing out 235 bhp like an earlier poster said...
Hi All,
Thanks for the comments, appreciated. Some good sound advice.
I am already a member of Alfa Owner and have already caused quite a stir over there with my car (See post here: http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-mito/826633-mi...
In-fact I have been modifying the car for sometime now currently with the following key changes:
- Full Stainless steel Ragazzon exhaust with Sports Cat
- New suspension (shocks/springs) all around
- New front suspension arms to combat torque steer and understeer
- Limited Slip Differential
- Front and Rear racing Tarox Brakes with Brembo Calipers
- Cold Air Induction
- P0's all around
List goes on....
Essentially I have been preparing the car for the next bigger phase of the plan to achieve 240BHP reliably. (This is coming next month) This will entail: new injectors, intercooler, turbo (TD04) and other supporting modifications (potentially at some stage new pistons and cams). All of this has been tried and tested in Italy now for a number of years. As with the other T-jet cars in the family Abarth Punto, Abarth 500's.
The Multair engines is another ball game, I probably wouldn't even attempt at getting one of them running anything much higher than stock. (Multiair failure)
Of course there's still going to be niggles with these mods, specifically speaking the M32 gearbox which will fail soon... (But I shall face that when it happens)
Anyhow! Back to the point of this topic. I wanted to really understand what the car is currently achieving and if it's not achieving what expected (with a two different remaps) and two different dynos why is this?
Essentially I want to be sure its mechanically sound and working at its optimum before I spend another shed load on further modifications.
Thanks for the comments, appreciated. Some good sound advice.
I am already a member of Alfa Owner and have already caused quite a stir over there with my car (See post here: http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-mito/826633-mi...
In-fact I have been modifying the car for sometime now currently with the following key changes:
- Full Stainless steel Ragazzon exhaust with Sports Cat
- New suspension (shocks/springs) all around
- New front suspension arms to combat torque steer and understeer
- Limited Slip Differential
- Front and Rear racing Tarox Brakes with Brembo Calipers
- Cold Air Induction
- P0's all around
List goes on....
Essentially I have been preparing the car for the next bigger phase of the plan to achieve 240BHP reliably. (This is coming next month) This will entail: new injectors, intercooler, turbo (TD04) and other supporting modifications (potentially at some stage new pistons and cams). All of this has been tried and tested in Italy now for a number of years. As with the other T-jet cars in the family Abarth Punto, Abarth 500's.
The Multair engines is another ball game, I probably wouldn't even attempt at getting one of them running anything much higher than stock. (Multiair failure)
Of course there's still going to be niggles with these mods, specifically speaking the M32 gearbox which will fail soon... (But I shall face that when it happens)
Anyhow! Back to the point of this topic. I wanted to really understand what the car is currently achieving and if it's not achieving what expected (with a two different remaps) and two different dynos why is this?
Essentially I want to be sure its mechanically sound and working at its optimum before I spend another shed load on further modifications.
Edited by mattkidd on Thursday 20th August 10:36
mattkidd said:
Hi All,
Anyhow! Back to the point of this topic. I wanted to really understand what the car is currently achieving and if it's not achieving what expected (with a two different remaps) and two different dynos why is this?
Essentially I want to be sure its mechanically sound and working at its optimum before I spend another shed load on further modifications.
I think it's impossible for anyone with knowledge to judge from a distance why your car doesn't deliver it's performance it should be doing; the max. 175hp after remap that is. Anyhow! Back to the point of this topic. I wanted to really understand what the car is currently achieving and if it's not achieving what expected (with a two different remaps) and two different dynos why is this?
Essentially I want to be sure its mechanically sound and working at its optimum before I spend another shed load on further modifications.
Edited by mattkidd on Thursday 20th August 10:36
The tuners that you've went to should be able to tell. But are they any good ??
I wouldn't go to a tuner that's not spezialized in the brand. F.i. the one in the link I presented earlier has a checklist prior to uploading his software; he checks all available drivetrain data, possible errors etc. He understands the engine and every part of the software written on the ECU. He doesn't just turn up the boost pressure, but makes sure the engine functions as delivered by the factory.
Here's an example from someone with a Giulietta 1.6 JTDm 16v with a dodgy remap, end result less power, but possible engine damage:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&t...
Remap agents (or whatever they're called) will always try to either steer you away from rolling roads, or make it produce a little higher than it actually is.
What you need to do is go to somewhere independant of them and get a before and after done there.
I have a Fiat with the same engine, albeit with a VL36 and I had mine mapped at Angel Tuning (sounds remarkably like your Company Y) and I've had no ill fates from it. The guy there, I forget his name, told me he helped develop the T-Jet engine.
with regards to the engine. 1.4 T-Jet unit calls enough at 220hp and will start eating piston rings and valves. To go further, it needs head work. The gearbox is also made of chocolate, as is the clutch, so I'd be looking at getting an uprated clutch, with strengthened gearbox internals prior to screwing too much out of it.
What you need to do is go to somewhere independant of them and get a before and after done there.
I have a Fiat with the same engine, albeit with a VL36 and I had mine mapped at Angel Tuning (sounds remarkably like your Company Y) and I've had no ill fates from it. The guy there, I forget his name, told me he helped develop the T-Jet engine.
with regards to the engine. 1.4 T-Jet unit calls enough at 220hp and will start eating piston rings and valves. To go further, it needs head work. The gearbox is also made of chocolate, as is the clutch, so I'd be looking at getting an uprated clutch, with strengthened gearbox internals prior to screwing too much out of it.
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