GTV V6 dliemma....

[ST270]

Looking for some thoughts on a GTV i am considering - it is priced quite low and the seller has confirmed the cambelt, tensioners and idlers were changed in 2011 - the car has done circa 30k since the work. They cannot confirm if the waterpump was done. Given the usual increments are every 60k or 4 years whichever arrives first I am of the impression it would need replacing about now - cost likely £1k.

The car has not had any rear suspension work done - not that i know it needs it as i haven't test driven it, but it has done over 120k so it quite possibly will need some bushes.

Other than that it has lacquer peel and faded door mirrors so will need at least a partial respray in the future. On the plus side it has 12 month mot and some recent work on the brakes and steering.

The car would be for weekends only so a bit of project is not an issue, however with the work i would want to do is it better to wait for another one to become available which has had these things done? On the flip side with this car i would at least have peace of mind that my choice of work is carried out...

Car is up at £2.5k and will likely need at least £2k spending on it in the next 12 months.... false economy?

[ST270]

Good advice thanks - i have actually just spoken with them! £850 for cambelt & waterpump, £550 for powerflex rear bushes - not including rose joints which if needed would be another £500 or so... not too bad really..

kapiteinlangzaam said:

£2.5k for a running/driving car in otherwise good condition with the aforementioned work needing to be done is

a) fair

or

b) cheap

Values are only going one way.

If its never had any suspension work done, you could easily be in for >1K worth of work though. Autolusso do some great (and good value) work, sort of mini-restos on these cars, so id be inclined to give them a ring.

[ST270]

Yes good point - i suppose even with a car that has the work done there are no guarantees still...

this one has invoices for the following;

clutch
flywheel
battery
downpipe
cv boot
cv joint
discs 7 pads
MAF
brake pipes

I guess you just look for any knocks or rattles and play in the steering on a test drive...

kapiteinlangzaam said:

ST270 said:

Good advice thanks - i have actually just spoken with them! £850 for cambelt & waterpump, £550 for powerflex rear bushes - not including rose joints which if needed would be another £500 or so... not too bad really..

kapiteinlangzaam said:

£2.5k for a running/driving car in otherwise good condition with the aforementioned work needing to be done is

a) fair

or

b) cheap

Values are only going one way.

If its never had any suspension work done, you could easily be in for >1K worth of work though. Autolusso do some great (and good value) work, sort of mini-restos on these cars, so id be inclined to give them a ring.

So it looks like you could be about £4-5k in to the car all said and done

If the rest of the car is v. good, id say thats fine value.

£5k upfront will also buy an already sorted car, so it depends how much of the 'project' aspect you want to invest in.....

At £2k, you might be happier. Try a decent haggle!

(also bear in mind at the age and mileage, front wishbones, suspension shocks/springs etc etc all also might need work).

[paulmakin]

AforAlfa offers fixed price servicing - check his website for prices on belts and rear spring pans. based in aylesbury

i paid £1500 ish for my MY99 with 6 months MOT left to run. then i spent around £1300 in one hit swapping back to standard ride height and re-testing it. it will be due a belt this year (£400) so that's £3200 for a sorted V6 now entering it's 3rd year with me. rear pans and clutch had been changed before my time - i also assume someone neglected a belt change and the remedial work was below standard as there's not one but two separate invoices for engine rebuilds !?

So approx £1000 pa cost of ownership and i still have a car with value.

I'd say buy it - it's not a daily so you can spread the cost and pace of repairs/maintenance/upgrades and when you consider the costs over the time you have the car i'm sure the man maths will be persuasive.

paul

[crostonian]

I used to deal in used Alfas between approx 1999 and 2010 and from experience it seemed that the so called specialists had formed a cartel. Shortened belt intervals, insistence on water pumps being changed plus numerous other recommendations etc. Talk about scaremongering, yes there was the odd tensioner and water pump failure but overall this generation of Alfas is more reliable than you think. As with Ferraris and the insistence on belt changes every 2 or 3 years regardless of mileage it is bks which has somehow become the 'law'. Go over to Europe and the attitudes are way different.

[xyyman]

As far as V6's are concerned its probably good practice to change cam belt/tensioner on a time and/or mileage basis is its good insurance against failure. While the belts are being changed its easier to have the water pump changed at the same time. The reason for changing the water pump is that later versions of the V6 had plastic impellors, rather than metal, and were prone to failure. I may be wrong but I think 3.0 V6's had the metal impellor as standard so you may be fine on that score. Rear suspension is quite a sophisticated multi-link set up and has more areas of wear, again I think the V6's had a more robust set up than the 2.0 versions. Any wear will tend to manifest itself by emitting various creaks and/or clonks and may exhibit 'feathering' of the inner rear tyre edges usually evidenced by a droning noise (sounds like a dodgy wheel bearing). It is a fairly straightforward job to refurbish the suspension if bushing wear hasn't been allowed to damage the component parts carrying the bushes. Might be an idea to replace rear bushes with polyurethane type if you do have to do it. If you buy the vehicle at a bargain price then having any work done will give you a great car and the assurance that all has been done properly.

Agree with Crostonian that some of these, so called, weak points are overplayed. Another one is that V6 diffs will explode at the drop of a hat, although I have never personally known of one doing that. Having said that I do agree with the upgrade of fitting a Q2 diff for other reasons, more for driveability than reliability. I have owned a few V6 Alfa's over the years and currently have a 3.2 Spider and 3.2 147 both of which are a delight to drive and always make me smile, particularly the addictive engine note which is priceless.

[paulmakin]

i've always found the V6's most robust than the TS's and the longer belt interval does go some way to offset the higher running costs (man maths again).

not sure about the belt malarky really - i habitually ran TS's that were well past their "belts by" date and never had a failure. just luck i suppose.

if the specialists did get together to create a belts myth then it was manufacturer sanctioned - i still have a copy of the service bulletin somewhere. mind you, surely between then and now someone could have developed a more reliable tensioner necessitating just the one short service interval to fit the upgraded unit.

paul

Edited by paulmakin on Monday 7th December 21:13

[Zombie]

Cam belt will probably last another 10k 12 months. It's the tensioner that fails - causes the cam belt to run off line, wearing down against the outer cam covers until it snaps. Just check it's position relative to the edge of the cam pulleys and you should be fine.

The lesser mileage intervals for V6's are more applicable to the 3.2's - They have a different (lumpier) inlet cam profile which causes the tensioner to fail sooner.

3.0 GTV's were fitted with metal impeller water pumps as standard. But it may have been changed for the plastic ones that do fail...

[bqf]

Before you buy an GTV - you must have a proper look underneath with the car on a ramp/lift. The mechanicals are surprisingly robust - I agree with the comment about Cambelt scaremongering - everyone spends thousands on cambelt, tensioner and water pump changes and realistically, when do any of these items actually cause a catastrophic failure? Its v rare.

The rust is a killer though - the underside can be v rusty and it's impossible to have a really good look with the car on the ground. My GTV had only done 63,000 miles, was tip top inside and out, but underneath it needed more welding than a big ship.

Great engines though. I have a 166 3.0 V6 all snuggled up in the garage - even though it's an auto I love it. Just to look at the engine is a work of art.

[GJR68]

I've owned a 3.2V6 GTV for 5 years now and been through all the pain !

Diff failures are certainly not a myth. It's not a certainty but if they do go then a gearbox rebuild will make for an expensive bill.

I think the belt failure paranoia has largely the Twin Spark to blame which certainly did have an issue. Bely failure on V6's is unusual but I wouldn't push it much past 5 years.

Water pump is again a risk management argument. Failure can be terminal. Do it while you do the timing belt makes sense.

Oil cooler pipes are a weak point and a full replacement should be factored in.

Electrics are weak. Often, cleaning relay connections etc can solve extensive replacement.

Corrosion can be poor but not a major factor.

Airbag light is a Pain in the a*se but has a fix.

Radiator will last 5 years max.

CF3's with their precat's can fry the ECU and Head Gasket due to heat build up at the rear bank.Switching over to CF2's will give a useful 20bhp and reduce the heat issue.

[ST270]

GJR68 said:

I've owned a 3.2V6 GTV for 5 years now and been through all the pain !

Diff failures are certainly not a myth. It's not a certainty but if they do go then a gearbox rebuild will make for an expensive bill.

I think the belt failure paranoia has largely the Twin Spark to blame which certainly did have an issue. Bely failure on V6's is unusual but I wouldn't push it much past 5 years.

Water pump is again a risk management argument. Failure can be terminal. Do it while you do the timing belt makes sense.

Oil cooler pipes are a weak point and a full replacement should be factored in.

Electrics are weak. Often, cleaning relay connections etc can solve extensive replacement.

Corrosion can be poor but not a major factor.

Airbag light is a Pain in the a*se but has a fix.

Radiator will last 5 years max.

CF3's with their precat's can fry the ECU and Head Gasket due to heat build up at the rear bank.Switching over to CF2's will give a useful 20bhp and reduce the heat issue.

Thanks for the info and forgive my ignorance but CF2 and CF3 - can you elaborate?

As you say things like oil cooler pipes and weak electrics which can be tricky to diagnose are issues one might not consider and could be expensive. Even though I am considering the car as a weekend one only these all have to be considered really...

[patrickgovier]

Here is your CF2 CF3 answer http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_cf.shtml

Having had a V6 Spider for the last 4 years this is what I have learnt:
1) rarely do I spend less than £1K a year on it
2) Parts are getting harder to find, oil cooler kits you need to go to Autolusso who have made a replacement
3) You can powerflex your bushes, but if you want more than you are limited to Koni suspension, but springs are fairly cheap still
4) I got my car completely resprayed and alloys done in the Midlands to a reasonable standard for £1,500. For the price paid I was happy.
5) I did buy a cheap car with under 50K on it but my first bill was pretty big due to: oil cooler, clutch, belts, service, MAF, etc. The parts list was over 2 pages. It think I was £2,600 lighter at the end of that one.
6) I would get it looked over properly by a specialist who can tell you what you are in for.

[Zombie]

GJR68 said:

I've owned a 3.2V6 GTV for 5 years now and been through all the pain !

Diff failures are certainly not a myth. It's not a certainty but if they do go then a gearbox rebuild will make for an expensive bill.

I think the belt failure paranoia has largely the Twin Spark to blame which certainly did have an issue. Bely failure on V6's is unusual but I wouldn't push it much past 5 years.

Water pump is again a risk management argument. Failure can be terminal. Do it while you do the timing belt makes sense.

Oil cooler pipes are a weak point and a full replacement should be factored in.

Electrics are weak. Often, cleaning relay connections etc can solve extensive replacement.

Corrosion can be poor but not a major factor.

Airbag light is a Pain in the a*se but has a fix.

Radiator will last 5 years max.

CF3's with their precat's can fry the ECU and Head Gasket due to heat build up at the rear bank.Switching over to CF2's will give a useful 20bhp and reduce the heat issue.

The 3.2's have a different inlet cam profile that put's the tensioner under additional stress. This means that they tend to fail at around 35-40k miles. My advice is to change the belt and tensioner every 32k and the idlers every 74k. But you could probably push the idlers to 100k.

Changing to CF2 manifolds will not liberate 20bhp. 10 is more realistic if coupled with a decent exhaust system and equal length front pipes. But as you point out, they do cause heat management issues if the car is driven hard. Whether they cause the ECU's to fail is debatable. There have been instances where low battery voltage has been to blame.

[Zombie]

ST270 said:

Thanks for the info and forgive my ignorance but CF2 and CF3 - can you elaborate?

CF2's use an older ecu and only have one cat under the car.

CF3's have 4 cats - 2 pre cats in the exhaust manifolds and 2 under the car. They also use a later ecu which is mounted to the back of the intake plenum above the exhaust manifolds and employ a different oil breather set up. Not that the oil breather set up has any real implications, it's just a bit more time consuming to remove the plenum.

[GJR68]

Zombie said:

The 3.2's have a different inlet cam profile that put's the tensioner under additional stress. This means that they tend to fail at around 35-40k miles. My advice is to change the belt and tensioner every 32k and the idlers every 74k. But you could probably push the idlers to 100k.

Changing to CF2 manifolds will not liberate 20bhp. 10 is more realistic if coupled with a decent exhaust system and equal length front pipes. But as you point out, they do cause heat management issues if the car is driven hard. Whether they cause the ECU's to fail is debatable. There have been instances where low battery voltage has been to blame.

Sorry, should have said 20bhp with an ECU remap. I've actually gained 24bhp with cf2, downpipes, catback exhaust and upgraded filter.

[MrC986]

I bought my V6 in January 2014 & sold it via PH earlier today to another Alfa enthusiast....I bought mine knowing it had the last cambelt done about 4 yrs prior & although it had only covered about 20k miles since, I took the attitude it was better to be safe than sorry & to get it done straight away. I didn't for one moment think it would be a cheap car to run & the kind souls at Alfa who came up with the idea of shoehorning such a big lump into such a small car weren't bothered about servicing access! However, other than a few wear and tear items which go hand in hand with owning a 15 yr old sports car, it more than exceeded my expectations in every respect, especially the number of people wanting to see the car and who appreciate, like I did, that they're worth travelling some distance to see/buy given their rarity.

For those looking, the forum members on the Alfa Forum are keen to see them retained by fellow enthusiasts, so don't be afraid to send PMs to them to see if you can buy a car before it gets openly advertised. I'm also amazed that dealers still don't understand the following for the V6 in this model & who at times are seriously undervaluing the cars they're selling - take the opportunity whilst you can as they're worth buying/owning & IMO they have definitely shown seasonal price differences.