Tell me about... 159s
Discussion
So, it's time for me to get a new car and I've been taken in by the style and flair of the Alfa Romeo 159. I don't know too much about them so am beckoning the PH massive for assistance.
What are the common problems and what engine would people recommend? The 1.9 is appealing due to rediculous motor tax rates here in ROI. (It's also appealing for insurance reasons)
So, what feedback might you have for me? I think my heart is set on the 159 but open to other suggestions of course.
What are the common problems and what engine would people recommend? The 1.9 is appealing due to rediculous motor tax rates here in ROI. (It's also appealing for insurance reasons)
So, what feedback might you have for me? I think my heart is set on the 159 but open to other suggestions of course.
Right:
The early ones (pre MY08 update) were considered rather heavy (especially compared to the 156), but they got lighter in later revisions. They are still roughly half a class above the 156 in terms of size (more of a middle ground between the 156 and 166 then a direct succesor to either), so its not as light on its feet and sporty as the 156, but a more sporty comfortable cruiser. Reliability wise they are supposedly a step ahead of the 156, and quite good, local car mag did 200k km with a diesel, only had a turbo failure and regular maintenance (turbo was a warranty job)
Engine wise:
1.8 MPI: considered underpowered, although with 140hp i think it should be OK for comfortable driving (then again, i make due with a 105hp 1.6 in the 147)
1.9 JTS: Vauxhall lump with an Alfa direct injection head, only real known issue is the timing chain might stretch, requiring costly replacement (apparently fix kits are out there and done on some cars), see if the chain has been replaced when buying.
2.2 JTS, see 1.9
3.2 JTS, see 1.9, but no timing chain issues, also considered a less characterful engine compared to the old Busso V6
1750TBi, pretty much THE engine to have in the 159, nice and poky, no known issues, but only done on later cars (09+ i think)
The various diesels are all the usual alfa/FPT JTDm suspects, and have no big known issues. Make sure timing belt has been done on time, and the lower power 8v units might be a tad slow (but will do ~150hp with a remap). There was a thing with the 200hp version of the 2.4 JDTm IIRC, which was fixed on the 210hp version (something something turbo adjustment?), might be worth checking into if you want a diesel, as the 2.4 lump should be lovely in pretty much every way.
EDIT: style and flair wise, check out the mk3 156, with the giugiaro nose, i really like the look of that one, and it is available with the 2.5 busso V6 and older TS engines (and the 2.0 JTS, which can be a touch problematic)
The early ones (pre MY08 update) were considered rather heavy (especially compared to the 156), but they got lighter in later revisions. They are still roughly half a class above the 156 in terms of size (more of a middle ground between the 156 and 166 then a direct succesor to either), so its not as light on its feet and sporty as the 156, but a more sporty comfortable cruiser. Reliability wise they are supposedly a step ahead of the 156, and quite good, local car mag did 200k km with a diesel, only had a turbo failure and regular maintenance (turbo was a warranty job)
Engine wise:
1.8 MPI: considered underpowered, although with 140hp i think it should be OK for comfortable driving (then again, i make due with a 105hp 1.6 in the 147)
1.9 JTS: Vauxhall lump with an Alfa direct injection head, only real known issue is the timing chain might stretch, requiring costly replacement (apparently fix kits are out there and done on some cars), see if the chain has been replaced when buying.
2.2 JTS, see 1.9
3.2 JTS, see 1.9, but no timing chain issues, also considered a less characterful engine compared to the old Busso V6
1750TBi, pretty much THE engine to have in the 159, nice and poky, no known issues, but only done on later cars (09+ i think)
The various diesels are all the usual alfa/FPT JTDm suspects, and have no big known issues. Make sure timing belt has been done on time, and the lower power 8v units might be a tad slow (but will do ~150hp with a remap). There was a thing with the 200hp version of the 2.4 JDTm IIRC, which was fixed on the 210hp version (something something turbo adjustment?), might be worth checking into if you want a diesel, as the 2.4 lump should be lovely in pretty much every way.
EDIT: style and flair wise, check out the mk3 156, with the giugiaro nose, i really like the look of that one, and it is available with the 2.5 busso V6 and older TS engines (and the 2.0 JTS, which can be a touch problematic)
Edited by Vitorio on Monday 25th July 14:23
Thanks for the summary, very useful info. So it appears that there is no bad option as such, just a few things to check and personal preference after that.
I'm looking forward to joining the Alfa world
EDIT: I do like your suggestion of the late 156 and I would love a Busso. However, as the V6 would attract some rediculous tax I would have to pay through the nose to run one. So realistic choices are between the 4 cyl cars and I prefer the looks of the 159. Thanks though
I'm looking forward to joining the Alfa world
EDIT: I do like your suggestion of the late 156 and I would love a Busso. However, as the V6 would attract some rediculous tax I would have to pay through the nose to run one. So realistic choices are between the 4 cyl cars and I prefer the looks of the 159. Thanks though
Edited by Johnny 89 on Monday 25th July 19:58
I've just bought a 1.9JTD 159, things I was told to lookout for were;
Power steering fluid, some had the wrong fluid from factory (Red instead of Green)
Wishbones are common (just had one replaced about 250 for a top one).
Rust on subframes - specifically front
Inside tyre wear on front edges can be a problem (There's a revised alignment setting on Alfaowner.com which helps)
EGR/Swirl Flaps - Can have the EGR blanked and a remap to stop errors showing. Swirl flaps I don't know much other than they can de-attach and get swallowed into the engine.
There are fixes for most of the above to stop them reoccurring but overall it seems reliable and just take the usual caution when buying any car.
I've had mine a month and I love it, here's a picture to persuade you some more (hopefully)
Anything else you want to know and I'll try help,
Cheers
Power steering fluid, some had the wrong fluid from factory (Red instead of Green)
Wishbones are common (just had one replaced about 250 for a top one).
Rust on subframes - specifically front
Inside tyre wear on front edges can be a problem (There's a revised alignment setting on Alfaowner.com which helps)
EGR/Swirl Flaps - Can have the EGR blanked and a remap to stop errors showing. Swirl flaps I don't know much other than they can de-attach and get swallowed into the engine.
There are fixes for most of the above to stop them reoccurring but overall it seems reliable and just take the usual caution when buying any car.
I've had mine a month and I love it, here's a picture to persuade you some more (hopefully)
Anything else you want to know and I'll try help,
Cheers
Vitorio said:
Right:
The early ones (pre MY08 update) were considered rather heavy (especially compared to the 156), but they got lighter in later revisions. They are still roughly half a class above the 156 in terms of size (more of a middle ground between the 156 and 166 then a direct succesor to either), so its not as light on its feet and sporty as the 156, but a more sporty comfortable cruiser. Reliability wise they are supposedly a step ahead of the 156, and quite good, local car mag did 200k km with a diesel, only had a turbo failure and regular maintenance (turbo was a warranty job)
Engine wise:
1.8 MPI: considered underpowered, although with 140hp i think it should be OK for comfortable driving (then again, i make due with a 105hp 1.6 in the 147)
1.9 JTS: Vauxhall lump with an Alfa direct injection head, only real known issue is the timing chain might stretch, requiring costly replacement (apparently fix kits are out there and done on some cars), see if the chain has been replaced when buying.
2.2 JTS, see 1.9
3.2 JTS, see 1.9, but no timing chain issues, also considered a less characterful engine compared to the old Busso V6
1750TBi, pretty much THE engine to have in the 159, nice and poky, no known issues, but only done on later cars (09+ i think)
The various diesels are all the usual alfa/FPT JTDm suspects, and have no big known issues. Make sure timing belt has been done on time, and the lower power 8v units might be a tad slow (but will do ~150hp with a remap). There was a thing with the 200hp version of the 2.4 JDTm IIRC, which was fixed on the 210hp version (something something turbo adjustment?), might be worth checking into if you want a diesel, as the 2.4 lump should be lovely in pretty much every way.
EDIT: style and flair wise, check out the mk3 156, with the giugiaro nose, i really like the look of that one, and it is available with the 2.5 busso V6 and older TS engines (and the 2.0 JTS, which can be a touch problematic)
Wouldn't be so sure on that, see my thread on alfaowner (same username) - I think the rebuild came in around £4000 after the chain tensions wore, the chain jumped, and the V6 became a V2.The early ones (pre MY08 update) were considered rather heavy (especially compared to the 156), but they got lighter in later revisions. They are still roughly half a class above the 156 in terms of size (more of a middle ground between the 156 and 166 then a direct succesor to either), so its not as light on its feet and sporty as the 156, but a more sporty comfortable cruiser. Reliability wise they are supposedly a step ahead of the 156, and quite good, local car mag did 200k km with a diesel, only had a turbo failure and regular maintenance (turbo was a warranty job)
Engine wise:
1.8 MPI: considered underpowered, although with 140hp i think it should be OK for comfortable driving (then again, i make due with a 105hp 1.6 in the 147)
1.9 JTS: Vauxhall lump with an Alfa direct injection head, only real known issue is the timing chain might stretch, requiring costly replacement (apparently fix kits are out there and done on some cars), see if the chain has been replaced when buying.
2.2 JTS, see 1.9
3.2 JTS, see 1.9, but no timing chain issues, also considered a less characterful engine compared to the old Busso V6
1750TBi, pretty much THE engine to have in the 159, nice and poky, no known issues, but only done on later cars (09+ i think)
The various diesels are all the usual alfa/FPT JTDm suspects, and have no big known issues. Make sure timing belt has been done on time, and the lower power 8v units might be a tad slow (but will do ~150hp with a remap). There was a thing with the 200hp version of the 2.4 JDTm IIRC, which was fixed on the 210hp version (something something turbo adjustment?), might be worth checking into if you want a diesel, as the 2.4 lump should be lovely in pretty much every way.
EDIT: style and flair wise, check out the mk3 156, with the giugiaro nose, i really like the look of that one, and it is available with the 2.5 busso V6 and older TS engines (and the 2.0 JTS, which can be a touch problematic)
Edited by Vitorio on Monday 25th July 14:23
1.9/M32 gearbox issues come up now and again.
Some suspension components are considered service items. Not quite so bad as the 156/147/GT but let's just say my local Indi keeps one of everything in stock...
Reports of front subframes rusting out - had mine replaced at the start of the year and it's not cheap.
Whichever you buy, it will appreciate preventative maintenance so make sure you have a trusted indi nearby.
But ... it's a cracking car so JFBI
We have a 2.4 Sportwagon Ti. Somewhat remapped, it is a fair bit quicker in a straight line than my 3.2GT.
They look great. You know that.
The interiors are nice and well screwed together - ours has survived 6 years with us and the German Shepherd as heavy users - I cleaned it out this weekend and it scrubbed up perfectly. Still smells of dog though.
Rear suspension so far has been fine.
Front has needed wishbones, and lower arm bushes.
The powersteering pulley broke up (the rubber bit in the middle failed), made an awful noise, but a reasonably easy fix.
Electrics have been good. Ours had the common problem with the indicator stalk - can be fixed in 10 minutes with a soldering iron rather than the £400 bill you'll get from a dealer.
We've just had to replace the turbo and inlet manifold which was not cheap at all. The turbo was whistling like a jet and had appreciable slop, so we did it before it trashed the engine. The swirl flaps on the inlet were solid - might have been used for very short journeys in the 45K miles before we got hold of it.
As a car for belting to the South of France, or any long haul drive, it is perfect. Not as good as a sorted 156 on the twisty stuff - certainly feels heavier and more ponderous.
Ignore all of the commentary on Alfaowner about the cheap Accelera tyres - in 19" they are absolutely fine and only about £60 a corner. In 18", apparently no so good. Running Acceleras as summer tyres, then running dedicated winter tyres has worked well for us.
They look great. You know that.
The interiors are nice and well screwed together - ours has survived 6 years with us and the German Shepherd as heavy users - I cleaned it out this weekend and it scrubbed up perfectly. Still smells of dog though.
Rear suspension so far has been fine.
Front has needed wishbones, and lower arm bushes.
The powersteering pulley broke up (the rubber bit in the middle failed), made an awful noise, but a reasonably easy fix.
Electrics have been good. Ours had the common problem with the indicator stalk - can be fixed in 10 minutes with a soldering iron rather than the £400 bill you'll get from a dealer.
We've just had to replace the turbo and inlet manifold which was not cheap at all. The turbo was whistling like a jet and had appreciable slop, so we did it before it trashed the engine. The swirl flaps on the inlet were solid - might have been used for very short journeys in the 45K miles before we got hold of it.
As a car for belting to the South of France, or any long haul drive, it is perfect. Not as good as a sorted 156 on the twisty stuff - certainly feels heavier and more ponderous.
Ignore all of the commentary on Alfaowner about the cheap Accelera tyres - in 19" they are absolutely fine and only about £60 a corner. In 18", apparently no so good. Running Acceleras as summer tyres, then running dedicated winter tyres has worked well for us.
Thanks for the help/advice guys.
Ben91, that is a stunning car.. I'm looking at the Rosso ones too, ideally with the cream leather. I've spotted a couple I like the look of. One has a cloverleaf symbol on the wing.. I'm guessing this was just added by the owner and has no significance?
Ben91, that is a stunning car.. I'm looking at the Rosso ones too, ideally with the cream leather. I've spotted a couple I like the look of. One has a cloverleaf symbol on the wing.. I'm guessing this was just added by the owner and has no significance?
Bit late to this but my advice is that you have got to really want one, if not the 3 series rivals etc. make a lot more sense. I've run a 61 plate 1750 TBi Ti spec Sportwagon for 2 years now and would agree with most of the above comments (except tyre brands).
If you can run a petrol I would and the 1750 is a pretty good engine although characterless with poor fuel consumption, can feel slow sometimes as the 159 is so heavy. The M32 gearbox is a well documented Achilles heel in some of these cars so if you do go diesel (except very late 2 litre diesel) be very careful although don't think rebuilds are too expensive.
The build quality isn't bad but paintwork quality is abysmal and if you can I would go for full leather, the half leather Ti interior (got this in mine) looks good but it doesn't wear very well. The Ti is a pretty hard ride and if you're driving back roads it does actually slow you down as it doesn't have the suppleness to push on comfortably. Although the Ti looks good I'd probably recommend a Lusso or lower spec car if you're carrying passengers on a regular basis, space is also very tight in the back.
I really like mine and don't intend selling it anytime soon, I think it will probably get replaced with a Skoda Octavia VRS Estate one day but not before I get my other Alfa on the road. I'd recommend a look on the Alfaowner forum 159 section, plenty of advice and horror stories on there.
If you can run a petrol I would and the 1750 is a pretty good engine although characterless with poor fuel consumption, can feel slow sometimes as the 159 is so heavy. The M32 gearbox is a well documented Achilles heel in some of these cars so if you do go diesel (except very late 2 litre diesel) be very careful although don't think rebuilds are too expensive.
The build quality isn't bad but paintwork quality is abysmal and if you can I would go for full leather, the half leather Ti interior (got this in mine) looks good but it doesn't wear very well. The Ti is a pretty hard ride and if you're driving back roads it does actually slow you down as it doesn't have the suppleness to push on comfortably. Although the Ti looks good I'd probably recommend a Lusso or lower spec car if you're carrying passengers on a regular basis, space is also very tight in the back.
I really like mine and don't intend selling it anytime soon, I think it will probably get replaced with a Skoda Octavia VRS Estate one day but not before I get my other Alfa on the road. I'd recommend a look on the Alfaowner forum 159 section, plenty of advice and horror stories on there.
1878 said:
Wouldn't be so sure on that, see my thread on alfaowner (same username) - I think the rebuild came in around £4000 after the chain tensions wore, the chain jumped, and the V6 became a V2.
Ouch, sorry to hear that!The issue on the 4 cilinder JTS lumps was chain stretching though, so seems like a different problems, but still something to look out for.
And yeah, a good alfa indi is important, 159s are starting to become cheap enough to no longer warrant main dealer service, and i always feel better knowing my car is in the hands of someone who knows the cars.
Johnny 89 said:
Thanks for the help/advice guys.
Ben91, that is a stunning car.. I'm looking at the Rosso ones too, ideally with the cream leather. I've spotted a couple I like the look of. One has a cloverleaf symbol on the wing.. I'm guessing this was just added by the owner and has no significance?
Thanks I'm glad I went for one.Ben91, that is a stunning car.. I'm looking at the Rosso ones too, ideally with the cream leather. I've spotted a couple I like the look of. One has a cloverleaf symbol on the wing.. I'm guessing this was just added by the owner and has no significance?
I'm 99% sure there never was a cloverleaf version/one with the badges produced. (Closest being the Spider with Cloverleaf badges - Mille Miglia edition I think)
Another thing to note on the Ti is the springs can snap and eibach replacements are recommended.
Ben91 said:
Johnny 89 said:
Thanks for the help/advice guys.
Ben91, that is a stunning car.. I'm looking at the Rosso ones too, ideally with the cream leather. I've spotted a couple I like the look of. One has a cloverleaf symbol on the wing.. I'm guessing this was just added by the owner and has no significance?
Thanks I'm glad I went for one.Ben91, that is a stunning car.. I'm looking at the Rosso ones too, ideally with the cream leather. I've spotted a couple I like the look of. One has a cloverleaf symbol on the wing.. I'm guessing this was just added by the owner and has no significance?
I'm 99% sure there never was a cloverleaf version/one with the badges produced. (Closest being the Spider with Cloverleaf badges - Mille Miglia edition I think)
Another thing to note on the Ti is the springs can snap and eibach replacements are recommended.
It is a common mod though, i have QV stickers on the wings of my 147, there never was a 147 QV, so no alfisti will be fooled by them, and considering their heritage (good luck symbol on Alfa's race cars), i like having them on there.
Didnt know about the Ti springs being prone to snapping, ill keep that in mind if i ever go 159 shopping
I have owned a 159 Ti saloon with the 1750 petrol engine since December and echo the comments made above. The engine feels almost diesel like as it pulls well in higher gears but acceleration from standstill isn't great and you can really feel the weight of the car in the corners. Also, the economy is quite poor for the performance you get. Until a few recent long motorway trips, my average on the OBC was showing 26/27 mpg but has now gone up to 29 mpg. But then again, who cares about mpg
The interior quality is fantastic and even though mine is 7 years old, it has aged really well. The only thing I have changed is the head unit to a double din Pioneer which with an Alfa screensaver looks very OEM. Passengers always comment on how great the seats look and they are really comfy too. Mine has the heated seats but not the heavy electric seats, this combo seemed quite rare when I was looking.
There are a few annoying things (/alfa characteristics!) such as the sun visors seem to only have 2 positions; up or down, the air con has a mind of it's own, the front wheels protrude out more than the side sills so you get a lot of road rash around the sill near the rear arch and as mentioned, the paint is fairly soft.
Although I have only had it 8 months, not one thing has gone wrong (touches wood) which is something I can't say for the german and japanese cars that I had previously. It's a car that you definitely look back at in the car park and smile! I love mine and really enjoy the rarity of it on the roads. Good luck in your search.
The interior quality is fantastic and even though mine is 7 years old, it has aged really well. The only thing I have changed is the head unit to a double din Pioneer which with an Alfa screensaver looks very OEM. Passengers always comment on how great the seats look and they are really comfy too. Mine has the heated seats but not the heavy electric seats, this combo seemed quite rare when I was looking.
There are a few annoying things (/alfa characteristics!) such as the sun visors seem to only have 2 positions; up or down, the air con has a mind of it's own, the front wheels protrude out more than the side sills so you get a lot of road rash around the sill near the rear arch and as mentioned, the paint is fairly soft.
Although I have only had it 8 months, not one thing has gone wrong (touches wood) which is something I can't say for the german and japanese cars that I had previously. It's a car that you definitely look back at in the car park and smile! I love mine and really enjoy the rarity of it on the roads. Good luck in your search.
The 159 was the end of Alfa ownership for my wife, who had previously had 4 of them, we both agreed it was a lumbering, heavy, ponderous thing that looked nice, but was completely devoid of any Alfa character. Such a shame, as the 156 (especially the mid-life pre-new-nose facelift) was an incredibly good car.
Ben91 said:
Another thing to note on the Ti is the springs can snap and eibach replacements are recommended.
I've just found out at a recent service from an alfa specialist that my rear springs have been replaced at some point with non-Ti springs, obviously someone saving a few quid at some point.I actually quite like the stance it gives the car, slightly higher at the rear, a bit "touring car"...
Irish_Stu said:
I've just found out at a recent service from an alfa specialist that my rear springs have been replaced at some point with non-Ti springs, obviously someone saving a few quid at some point.
I actually quite like the stance it gives the car, slightly higher at the rear, a bit "touring car"...
Does look good with a bit of rake on it.I actually quite like the stance it gives the car, slightly higher at the rear, a bit "touring car"...
Thanks everyone for the help..
I've spotted a car that looks good and am going to take a look. The 1.9 jts has a timing chain, right?
The car is just approaching 100k miles so wondering is there anything specific to look out for a this mileage?
It's the navy blue colour, anyone have the name?
I've spotted a car that looks good and am going to take a look. The 1.9 jts has a timing chain, right?
The car is just approaching 100k miles so wondering is there anything specific to look out for a this mileage?
It's the navy blue colour, anyone have the name?
Johnny 89 said:
Thanks everyone for the help..
I've spotted a car that looks good and am going to take a look. The 1.9 jts has a timing chain, right?
The car is just approaching 100k miles so wondering is there anything specific to look out for a this mileage?
It's the navy blue colour, anyone have the name?
Yup, the JTS has a chain, but its known for stretching problems, so check the history to see if its been replaced or fixed. Its not an engine killer, but having it replaced if it stretches obviously isnt a cheap job.I've spotted a car that looks good and am going to take a look. The 1.9 jts has a timing chain, right?
The car is just approaching 100k miles so wondering is there anything specific to look out for a this mileage?
It's the navy blue colour, anyone have the name?
Opel had a permanent fix for the issue, but alfa never officially adopted it, although some cars will have been fixed nonetheless.
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