Buying a mac to run windows?
Discussion
Might seem a bit backwards, but I run a few complex/memory hungry spreadsheets, and a few months back I borrowed my brothers Macbook air. He runs whatever the software is called that allowed him to run windows. Now, his Macbook managed to crunch the numbers on said spreadsheet alot faster than my more expensive and higher specced Windows laptop. My windows machine has an i5 to his i3, 8GB ram to his 4GB etc, and yet, even though he was running windows, it was still faster than my machine.
So this begs the question, is it backwards to buy an Apple product to run windows? Just a thought for when I next upgrade, I've always bought expensive (£1kish) Windows machines, on the assumption they should be as fast/faster than a mac running windows.
So this begs the question, is it backwards to buy an Apple product to run windows? Just a thought for when I next upgrade, I've always bought expensive (£1kish) Windows machines, on the assumption they should be as fast/faster than a mac running windows.
We'd need to know what he was using though to get the full info. For example does he boot into Windows or does he boot into OSX and open a Windows machine?
I suspect his has a SSD and yours doesn't which would go someway to explaining it but it could also be down to security software, installation differences etc. Full specs of your machine would be needed, how old and what OS is your machine running, was it the same version of Excel?
Apple are very good at matching the components in their machines but a lot of Windows machines are just a bunch chucked together at a price point and if they don't compliment each other then it will actually have a negative impact on performance, it's quite possible to build an expensive yet slow machine.
I suspect his has a SSD and yours doesn't which would go someway to explaining it but it could also be down to security software, installation differences etc. Full specs of your machine would be needed, how old and what OS is your machine running, was it the same version of Excel?
Apple are very good at matching the components in their machines but a lot of Windows machines are just a bunch chucked together at a price point and if they don't compliment each other then it will actually have a negative impact on performance, it's quite possible to build an expensive yet slow machine.
His is a base spec 2015 11" air, boots straight into windows, not using a VM.
I've got a HP Spectre 13, 1.6GHz i5, 8GB ram, 64 bit Windows 10, SSD, it was a £950 machine like 18mths ago, I'm not running a £300 PC World special.
I don't have any extra security software over the basic windows offering, not much software on there, mostly a bare bones build. Although I didn't do a fresh Windows install when new, so it is as it came from HP, so could potentially have alot of their crap running in the background, but I removed alot of useless software and turned off some background settings when I got it.
I bought the machine for its speed and portability, so just confusing when his cheaper, lighter Mac seemed to run windows based software faster.
I've got a HP Spectre 13, 1.6GHz i5, 8GB ram, 64 bit Windows 10, SSD, it was a £950 machine like 18mths ago, I'm not running a £300 PC World special.
I don't have any extra security software over the basic windows offering, not much software on there, mostly a bare bones build. Although I didn't do a fresh Windows install when new, so it is as it came from HP, so could potentially have alot of their crap running in the background, but I removed alot of useless software and turned off some background settings when I got it.
I bought the machine for its speed and portability, so just confusing when his cheaper, lighter Mac seemed to run windows based software faster.
skinnyman said:
So this begs the question, is it backwards to buy an Apple product to run windows?
Yes, if you think it'll work better because it's an Apple device, as the underlying hardware will be near enough identical to a windows machine with the same spec.No, if you just want something that has more than 10 minutes in CAD by some semi-skilled intern involved in its design.
You'd maybe benefit from wiping the machine and a fresh install.
2015 11" air has an i5 at 1.6ghz you have an i5 at 2.6ghz. Both dual core.
Memory is the same speed roughly - and having extra memory only helps if you actually use it, so if windows + excel + spreadsheet fits into 4gb, having 8gb wont make anything go quicker.
http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookreview/hp-sp...
Quick Take
This Windows laptop really is as good or better than an Apple MacBook Air in almost every way imaginable. But is that enough to convince Apple owners?
Were you running in low power mode or something?
Memory is the same speed roughly - and having extra memory only helps if you actually use it, so if windows + excel + spreadsheet fits into 4gb, having 8gb wont make anything go quicker.
http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookreview/hp-sp...
Quick Take
This Windows laptop really is as good or better than an Apple MacBook Air in almost every way imaginable. But is that enough to convince Apple owners?
Were you running in low power mode or something?
skinnyman said:
So this begs the question, is it backwards to buy an Apple product to run windows?
I've done it.And yes, it is.
The keyboard being one of my main gripes, but also the fact that you then really overpay for the performance you get.
As for your OP, haven't had a new HP for some time, but some brands are especially bad with bloatware.
Simply put, your spectre outperforms the little mac by some margin. There's no wizardry here. An i5 in a mac is an i5, they use the same RAM, same drives. Internally it's just another laptop. You pay for the design and OS.
A windows however on his machine wil inevitably be just a clean install. On your machine HP may have made some questionable decisions of delivering pre-installed software.
Historically, the first thing I've done on most my machines is install a clean windows as I get them out the box. Takes an hour but it's worth it (if you have a mac you'd need to do it anyway). Didn't need to do it on my current XPS or my previous Samsung laptop though. Both relatively clean out of the box!
I'm 99% sure that Apple have never produced a MacBook Air with an i3 chip - they are all i5's or higher.
A Mac running Windows should be basically the same performance as a PC running Windows, all other things being equal - there is no overhead if you're running Bootcamp.
If the two machines are similar age and generation of hardware then there are basically three likely causes for what you are seeing:
1) Memory bandwidth - your laptop may have a single 8GB DIMM, as opposed to the MBA which will have (effectively) 2 x 2GB configuration. Modern processors have dual-channel memory configurations and the MBA splits its memory across both channels, where as often PC manufacturers just stick in a single DIMM these days. This has a particularly noticeable effect on things like graphics performance, but may have an impact here too.
While people love to recommend upgrading memory CAPACITY moving up from 4GB actually has relatively little benefit for most tasks, but moving from single to dual channel memory configurations does make a difference.
2) SSD - probably the best thing about the MacBook range now is you know whatever machine someone buys it'll have it'll have an SSD in it. PC manufacturers have been a bit slow on the uptake in non-Ultrabook style system, and even now charge a big premium for it even though the drives are pretty cheap.
3) Thermals - could be your laptop is just full of dust (common once they get a few years old) and isn't being cooled effectively. When the CPU is under-load it'll generate a fair amount of heat that needs dissipating, which is done by blowing air through a metal heatsink.
Because this needs a lot of surface area in a small space the heatsink fins are very close together, and dust gathers along the leading edge and blocks the majority of the airflow. When this happens the heat will build and then once a certain temperature is exceeded (typically around 90-95c) the processor will reduce performance to protect itself and try to control temperatures. If they continue to rise then the system will shut off (typically around 105c).
There are other factors like there are different power ratings of i3/i5/i7 - so a 35w i3 will generally be faster than a 15w i7, but that's unlikely to be a factor here as the MacBook Air's are all based on the 15w chips.
A Mac running Windows should be basically the same performance as a PC running Windows, all other things being equal - there is no overhead if you're running Bootcamp.
If the two machines are similar age and generation of hardware then there are basically three likely causes for what you are seeing:
1) Memory bandwidth - your laptop may have a single 8GB DIMM, as opposed to the MBA which will have (effectively) 2 x 2GB configuration. Modern processors have dual-channel memory configurations and the MBA splits its memory across both channels, where as often PC manufacturers just stick in a single DIMM these days. This has a particularly noticeable effect on things like graphics performance, but may have an impact here too.
While people love to recommend upgrading memory CAPACITY moving up from 4GB actually has relatively little benefit for most tasks, but moving from single to dual channel memory configurations does make a difference.
2) SSD - probably the best thing about the MacBook range now is you know whatever machine someone buys it'll have it'll have an SSD in it. PC manufacturers have been a bit slow on the uptake in non-Ultrabook style system, and even now charge a big premium for it even though the drives are pretty cheap.
3) Thermals - could be your laptop is just full of dust (common once they get a few years old) and isn't being cooled effectively. When the CPU is under-load it'll generate a fair amount of heat that needs dissipating, which is done by blowing air through a metal heatsink.
Because this needs a lot of surface area in a small space the heatsink fins are very close together, and dust gathers along the leading edge and blocks the majority of the airflow. When this happens the heat will build and then once a certain temperature is exceeded (typically around 90-95c) the processor will reduce performance to protect itself and try to control temperatures. If they continue to rise then the system will shut off (typically around 105c).
There are other factors like there are different power ratings of i3/i5/i7 - so a 35w i3 will generally be faster than a 15w i7, but that's unlikely to be a factor here as the MacBook Air's are all based on the 15w chips.
Edited by Thorburn on Wednesday 24th August 09:51
Don't forget the recent models of Macbook Air have PCie flash drives, for most uses they are very fast machines. The PC boys can compare specs all they like but honestly those Air's are quick! For general use I've even found that running windows in a VM on a fast Mac is a better overall experience than some supposedly fast windows machines.
Bikerjon said:
Don't forget the recent models of Macbook Air have PCie flash drives, for most uses they are very fast machines. The PC boys can compare specs all they like but honestly those Air's are quick! For general use I've even found that running windows in a VM on a fast Mac is a better overall experience than some supposedly fast windows machines.
The PCIe flash drives in my experience make a pretty marginal difference - huge theoretical throughput, but rare you'll see any real world benefits from it.ZesPak said:
I've done it.
And yes, it is.
The keyboard being one of my main gripes, but also the fact that you then really overpay for the performance you get.
As for your OP, haven't had a new HP for some time, but some brands are especially bad with bloatware.
Simply put, your spectre outperforms the little mac by some margin. There's no wizardry here. An i5 in a mac is an i5, they use the same RAM, same drives. Internally it's just another laptop. You pay for the design and OS.
A windows however on his machine wil inevitably be just a clean install. On your machine HP may have made some questionable decisions of delivering pre-installed software.
Historically, the first thing I've done on most my machines is install a clean windows as I get them out the box. Takes an hour but it's worth it (if you have a mac you'd need to do it anyway). Didn't need to do it on my current XPS or my previous Samsung laptop though. Both relatively clean out of the box!
Your over simplifying, their are countless versions of processors, 6 generations of i5 have been available, each generation may have different power versions, different graphics versions, different frequencies.. etc etc, like wise with ram and drives, could be that the HP is the same spec as the mac on paper but the actual hardware fitted isn't as good or is very different, the effect that they varying spec has is very subjective too dependant on the code its running, ie the software your using.And yes, it is.
The keyboard being one of my main gripes, but also the fact that you then really overpay for the performance you get.
As for your OP, haven't had a new HP for some time, but some brands are especially bad with bloatware.
Simply put, your spectre outperforms the little mac by some margin. There's no wizardry here. An i5 in a mac is an i5, they use the same RAM, same drives. Internally it's just another laptop. You pay for the design and OS.
A windows however on his machine wil inevitably be just a clean install. On your machine HP may have made some questionable decisions of delivering pre-installed software.
Historically, the first thing I've done on most my machines is install a clean windows as I get them out the box. Takes an hour but it's worth it (if you have a mac you'd need to do it anyway). Didn't need to do it on my current XPS or my previous Samsung laptop though. Both relatively clean out of the box!
But your suggestion to do a full clean OS install is great first step.
I'll run a full clean install (when I can find the time), and then do another comparison.
But my machine has all the necessities to be a fast capable windows machine. 256GB SSD, 8GB 1600mhz ram in 2 4GB sticks, 1.6GHz i5 etc etc. All the ingredients are there, and it hasn't exactly had a hard life. It spends 99% of its time running Excel and Chrome.
But my machine has all the necessities to be a fast capable windows machine. 256GB SSD, 8GB 1600mhz ram in 2 4GB sticks, 1.6GHz i5 etc etc. All the ingredients are there, and it hasn't exactly had a hard life. It spends 99% of its time running Excel and Chrome.
apple you get relatively modest hardware with optimised software to get the best out of it, and sometimes the hardware is really quite s
t and out of date
http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/4/12373776/2012-mac...
apple hardware with windows software is the worst of both worlds, the most expensive way to get a terrible computer.
t and out of datehttp://www.theverge.com/2016/8/4/12373776/2012-mac...
apple hardware with windows software is the worst of both worlds, the most expensive way to get a terrible computer.
ging84 said:
apple you get relatively modest hardware with optimised software to get the best out of it, and sometimes the hardware is really quite st and out of date
http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/4/12373776/2012-mac...
apple hardware with windows software is the worst of both worlds, the most expensive way to get a terrible computer.
That's not really fair, they are good machines in terms of spec, build, etc, but you're paying a premium for OS X and the badge. t and out of datehttp://www.theverge.com/2016/8/4/12373776/2012-mac...
apple hardware with windows software is the worst of both worlds, the most expensive way to get a terrible computer.
skinnyman said:
But my machine has all the necessities to be a fast capable windows machine. 256GB SSD, 8GB 1600mhz ram in 2 4GB sticks, 1.6GHz i5 etc etc. All the ingredients are there, and it hasn't exactly had a hard life. It spends 99% of its time running Excel and Chrome.
Which I5 is it?Goto system properties, some i5's especially mobile variants are frankly s
t.Spectre 13" base cpu is :
Intel® Core™ i5-6200U (2.3GHz, up to 2.8 GHz, 3 MB cache, 2 cores) + Intel® HD Graphics 520 (with 8G memory)
The 2015 macbook air is an i5 at 1.6ghz (apple never really say which but I am guessing a gen behind the spectre.
The spectre is a decent machine and shouldnt be slower than the apple when both running windows
Intel® Core™ i5-6200U (2.3GHz, up to 2.8 GHz, 3 MB cache, 2 cores) + Intel® HD Graphics 520 (with 8G memory)
The 2015 macbook air is an i5 at 1.6ghz (apple never really say which but I am guessing a gen behind the spectre.
The spectre is a decent machine and shouldnt be slower than the apple when both running windows
Excel running your spreadsheets slower on the Windows PC - assuming it all fits in memory, I'd not be looking at differences between SSDs, spinning hard disks, or main memory.
If you think it's bloat on the PC one, get the task manager up and look at the CPU and memory to see if there are any processes using and unexpectedly large amount of resources.
Check if excel on both computers are 64 bit versions.
Check the power saving profile on the Windows computer for maximum performance (usually activated when plugged in and charging)
After that I don't honestly have a clue but I'd compare sizes of L1 and L2 caches on the processors if you come up empty on the above items but there's not a whole lot you can do about the processor
For the Mac vs PC debate: Lots of people use Macs because they like them irrespective of comparisons to the spec you can get for your money elsewhere. Bit like how we like the kind of car we like - the hardware tech spec isn't the whole story. There's a reason why you see so many at software development conferences (obviously not the MS dev stack focused ones)
Good luck finding out what the difference is.
If you think it's bloat on the PC one, get the task manager up and look at the CPU and memory to see if there are any processes using and unexpectedly large amount of resources.
Check if excel on both computers are 64 bit versions.
Check the power saving profile on the Windows computer for maximum performance (usually activated when plugged in and charging)
After that I don't honestly have a clue but I'd compare sizes of L1 and L2 caches on the processors if you come up empty on the above items but there's not a whole lot you can do about the processor
For the Mac vs PC debate: Lots of people use Macs because they like them irrespective of comparisons to the spec you can get for your money elsewhere. Bit like how we like the kind of car we like - the hardware tech spec isn't the whole story. There's a reason why you see so many at software development conferences (obviously not the MS dev stack focused ones)
Good luck finding out what the difference is.
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