Track Limits

[ArtyP]

Should the limits be rigorously enforced, or do we just let them get on with it?

Where is the limit set:
1 Wheel, whist power over steering, Ok,
2 Wheels, 1st occurrence = a warning, 2nd occurrence = a penalty
More then 2 Wheels, drive thru

Should the white line track limit be reworked to slightly destabilise a car and slow it down???

There are penalties for short cutting a chicane, but not for gaining an advantage by "expanding" the track

[eybic]

In theory looking at it in a black and white fashion then imo the track ends at the white line, go over this and you should be penalised. They should think of it as a wall rather than not really meaning much.

[longblackcoat]

Could do it with GPS devices linked to the power unit - go over the line and it cuts/limits your power for a few seconds. Means you can keep the long runoff areas for safety, but they'd still need to stay within the limits or end up losing places.

[thegreenhell]

They should go back to having rumble strips and grass at the track edge as a physical deterrent, rather than a tempting extension of smooth tarmac.

[callyman]

I would suggest a 2/3 or 3/4 car width of tarmac beyond the white line, then grass/gravel.
You can use the extra width area but take the piss and you're off...but safely off.

But as said, they manage to keep inside of walls when there is no margin for error/gain.

[HustleRussell]

eybic said:

In theory looking at it in a black and white fashion then imo the track ends at the white line, go over this and you should be penalised. They should think of it as a wall rather than not really meaning much.

The kerbs are outside the 'walls' though, so this would imply that your track limits rules are more strict than those currently in place and you'd like to see the cars driving on the grey only?

At club level, if you go four tyres over the line you are exceeding track limits, however half of one tyre on the line and three and a half off is fine. I like this. The drivers aggressively hitting the kerbs adds to the spectacle.

What I don't like is situations like at Hungary where (IIRC) three corners were policed by an invisible and binary robotic system but drivers were able to repeatedly go four wheels off at other corners... It was much the same at Silverstone.

As a spectator, I want to be able to see if the driver is going outside track limits, and if it's just a tyre touching the line then, as in tennis, it's easy to see if part of a tyre is touching the line.

Beyond the kerb, astroturf is a very effective deterrent if it's even slightly damp. If you've been wide at Copse or Pouhon for example you'll agree. A surface which guarantees that you'll lose time if you end up with a tyre or more on the other side of the kerb by ensuring that the rest of your tyres will quickly follow. Surely F1 could come up with some painted or coated low grip strip which will drag drivers wide onto the runoff?

[eybic]

HustleRussell said:

The kerbs are outside the 'walls' though, so this would imply that your track limits rules are more strict than those currently in place and you'd like to see the cars driving on the grey only?

That's right, in my mind what is the point in having a line to signify the edge of the track if it's ignored?

[HustleRussell]

eybic said:

HustleRussell said:

The kerbs are outside the 'walls' though, so this would imply that your track limits rules are more strict than those currently in place and you'd like to see the cars driving on the grey only?

That's right, in my mind what is the point in having a line to signify the edge of the track if it's ignored?

Agreed, use the line, the difference between us appears to be that you appear to be saying the cars should remain entirely within the lines and I'm saying that so long as any part of the car is touching the line it's ok... I don't want to lose the wow factor of having the car going though the corner so fast that it ends up entirely straddling the kerb, the driver dealing with the resulting instability / lack of traction and scrabbling down the next straight ahead of a streamer of sparks...

[kambites]

I'd like to see them just put a narrow strip of something with absolutely no grip immediately outside the kerbs, probably with tarmac beyond that for safety's sake. Rather than solving the problem with penalties, let them go beyond the track limits but make it a clear disadvantage to do so; that way they can still push the limits and survive if they get it wrong but they can't gain an advantage from intentionally taking the car beyond the track.

[Mr_Thyroid]

I'm with Toto on this one it's up to the drivers to find the quickest route - if they want to drive off the track that's fine by me - so long as they don't shorten the circuit that's OK.

However the rule about forcing another car off track should still apply, obviously.

And it also becomes slightly complicated in yellow flag zones - leaving the track, except in avoiding action, would be an indication that they are ignoring the yellow - areas off the track are usually lower grip, it could therefore be dangerous.

[Drumroll]

The MSA set out what they consider to be track limits(link below) (thank you Mr J Palmer)the problem with making kerbs more "aggressive" is that creates serious safety issues for the bike guys.



https://www.msauk.org/assets/tracklimitsguidance-3...

[Munter]

Mr_Thyroid said:

I'm with Toto on this one it's up to the drivers to find the quickest route - if they want to drive off the track that's fine by me - so long as they don't shorten the circuit that's OK.

But if you can drive anywhere on the outside to set a faster laptime that's ok? Despite not being the circuit design that you are supposed to be racing on?

I think the current UK rules are the correct interpretation. Or we say the winner is the first car where the whole car is over the line not the first part of the car to cross the line.

Between the lines is the circuit, where you might make a few errors there are kerbs, you can use them without penalty. Otherwise it's outside track limits, and if you're unable to stay within the lines on a consistent basis either get an eye test or hand the licence back.

[HustleRussell]

Do you really want to see drivers not using kerbs at all except for in the event of a 'mistake'?

[davepoth]

Kerbs are fair game and always have been. It's when you drive past the kerb and on to the tarmac outside it that there's a problem.

How about electronic sensors on the corners where track limits will make a difference, which tell a car when it's exceeded track limits. Red lights on the dash, gain three of them and DRS and KERS are disabled for a lap...

[Mr_Thyroid]

Munter said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

I'm with Toto on this one it's up to the drivers to find the quickest route - if they want to drive off the track that's fine by me - so long as they don't shorten the circuit that's OK.

But if you can drive anywhere on the outside to set a faster laptime that's ok? Despite not being the circuit design that you are supposed to be racing on?

I think the current UK rules are the correct interpretation. Or we say the winner is the first car where the whole car is over the line not the first part of the car to cross the line.

Between the lines is the circuit, where you might make a few errors there are kerbs, you can use them without penalty. Otherwise it's outside track limits, and if you're unable to stay within the lines on a consistent basis either get an eye test or hand the licence back.

Yes - the places where gains can be made off-track are small so who cares - there's always grass coming up pretty quickly for anyone who stays off too long. It would stop all this pedantic wiffling and nonsense about 20cm being ok, but not more. Blah blah blah as Rubens would say.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Drumroll said:

The MSA set out what they consider to be track limits(link below) (thank you Mr J Palmer)the problem with making kerbs more "aggressive" is that creates serious safety issues for the bike guys.



https://www.msauk.org/assets/tracklimitsguidance-3...

Yep. I have experience

Was racing at Mallory Park one day, came out of Gerards, ran onto the rumble strip and the front of the bike crossed up under me. Wasn't an immediate problem as the front was light because it was under power.....but I remember thinking it was an unusual reaction for the bike to make, as I'd not had it before.

I found out why when I started braking at the end of the straight, and the bike went everywhere - the front tyre had blown out on the kerbing

Took me down onto the deck still at circa a ton, and once I had stopped, I was rewarded with a shoulder separation. My collar bone still sticks up, 15 years later

Anyway, looking at the tyre, a racing slick, there was a perfect 'half square' puncture in it so to speak - two joined-up tears, 90 degrees to each other, about two inches long each, perfectly matching the shape of the edge of the kerbing.

Made a complaint to the Track owners which of course fell on deaf ears. I just had to lump a nasty injury and a trashed bike. Not happy

[Impasse]

It seems you're saying a water trap would be a better deterrent. I agree.

[HardtopManual]

It would not be beyond the wit of track engineers to come up with a retractable kerb design, where the kerbs could be "wound up" for car events and flattened for bike events. It needn't be anything fancy/motorised.

[London424]

I always laugh at the comments where we hear that track limits won't be enforced at a certain corner because drivers 'don't gain an advantage'.

Ah yes, all those drivers looking for tenths of a second keep running wide on the same corner lap after lap because it loses them time!

[MartG]

Thread resurrection after last weekend's track limits controversy...

Wouldn't it be fairly simple to fit the cars with a sensor which detects a wire buried in the edge of the track approximately half a car's width from the white line marking the edge of the track ? If the sensor is triggered it would mean that the centreline of the car is half the car's width from the track, therefore it must have all 4 wheels over the line.

If such a sensor was fitted it could either send a signal to the stewards, or even automatically cut engine power for 5s each time