New Alfa Spider
Discussion
I'd love a 159 Sportwagon, I really would....but not enough to sacrifice the level of performance/drive-ability that a 330i Touring will give me
it really depresses me that I have to conform to the 'ultimate driving machine' sterotype but modern 'performance' alfas appear to be trading on looks and reputation
it really depresses me that I have to conform to the 'ultimate driving machine' sterotype but modern 'performance' alfas appear to be trading on looks and reputation
jamieboy,
I'm not trying to be contentious or critical of the Spider. I've just watched Alfa struggle to make decent drivers cars over the last 10 years and despite your use of the word "sporty" they have always marketed themselves as a sporting brand. They have always struggled in the UK against the German brands and used this sporting character as a means of differentiating themselves to attract buyers. They poured money into the BTCC programme with the 155 in the early 90's for example and managed to shift a few of these lacklustre cars on the back of the track success. The problem for Alfa now is that BMW's are actually far more fun from a drivers viewpoint, sad but true. Alfa's are really now little more than an individualist statement and the poor new sales figures back this up I'm afraid. The so called Alfa renaissance has been promised so many times that it is hard for many people to give credence to it. The 75 was heralded as the saviour of the company in '86 but had truly awful ergonomics (and I've owned 3), then the 164 in '88 (terrible residuals), then the GT/Spider in '95 followed by the 156 in '98. All have come and gone and failed to build a lasting reputation for the brand.
When I first started buying Alfa's I had a 1.3 SC 5 door Alfasud followed by a 1.3 Ti 3 door Alfasud. Now they were fun cars. Light, exceptional handling and enough power to put a smile on your face without going at silly speeds. The latest cars don't have this. I test drove a Brera to see what the latest generation is like and found it disappointing in lots of ways. My other half liked the styling but not the drive so she ended up with a Cayman. And that's the problem for Alfa, customers keep going elsewhere which is why Alfa once again don't have the money to make the new Spider up to the task of defeating the competition. Lack of performance, crappy dealers and lousy residuals will once again conspire to make this a bad new purchase decision but a great used buy a few years down the line for budding enthusiasts.
I'm not trying to be contentious or critical of the Spider. I've just watched Alfa struggle to make decent drivers cars over the last 10 years and despite your use of the word "sporty" they have always marketed themselves as a sporting brand. They have always struggled in the UK against the German brands and used this sporting character as a means of differentiating themselves to attract buyers. They poured money into the BTCC programme with the 155 in the early 90's for example and managed to shift a few of these lacklustre cars on the back of the track success. The problem for Alfa now is that BMW's are actually far more fun from a drivers viewpoint, sad but true. Alfa's are really now little more than an individualist statement and the poor new sales figures back this up I'm afraid. The so called Alfa renaissance has been promised so many times that it is hard for many people to give credence to it. The 75 was heralded as the saviour of the company in '86 but had truly awful ergonomics (and I've owned 3), then the 164 in '88 (terrible residuals), then the GT/Spider in '95 followed by the 156 in '98. All have come and gone and failed to build a lasting reputation for the brand.
When I first started buying Alfa's I had a 1.3 SC 5 door Alfasud followed by a 1.3 Ti 3 door Alfasud. Now they were fun cars. Light, exceptional handling and enough power to put a smile on your face without going at silly speeds. The latest cars don't have this. I test drove a Brera to see what the latest generation is like and found it disappointing in lots of ways. My other half liked the styling but not the drive so she ended up with a Cayman. And that's the problem for Alfa, customers keep going elsewhere which is why Alfa once again don't have the money to make the new Spider up to the task of defeating the competition. Lack of performance, crappy dealers and lousy residuals will once again conspire to make this a bad new purchase decision but a great used buy a few years down the line for budding enthusiasts.
isuk said:
despite your use of the word "sporty" they have always marketed themselves as a sporting brand.
I was contrasting 'sporty' cars with 'sports' cars.
isuk said:
Lack of performance, crappy dealers and lousy residuals
I'll point out again that the 'performance' version has not yet been announced, the dealer network is going through a process where loads of under-performing franchises are being removed and (hopefully) replaced with better ones, and there was a report last week which showed Glass's guide is predicting the Brera to be in the top ten depreciation-beating cars over three years.
From Alfa's own press release on their website...
"The new Alfa Spider, the latest open-topped Alfa Romeo in the company’s outstanding legacy of iconic convertibles, has just gone on sale in the UK. Derived from Giorgetto Giugiaro’s multiple award-winning Alfa Brera design, the new Alfa Spider was developed by Pininfarina in collaboration with Alfa Romeo Centro Stile. Winner of the Cabrio of the Year award at the 2006 Geneva Motorshow, the new Alfa Spider combines superlative engineering with outstanding performance and handling characteristics appropriate to the pedigree of one of the world’s most famous sporting marques.
The Spider microsite describes the car as "..not just beautiful but also technologically advanced and inherently a thoroughbred sports car
So there you have it. Alfa regard it as a sports car. I hope the car does do well as I have a lot of time for the brand but I am extremely sceptical about predictions on residuals made at a car's launch when the brand track record is way below average. I remember the same thing being said about the previous GTV and Spider at their launch.
"The new Alfa Spider, the latest open-topped Alfa Romeo in the company’s outstanding legacy of iconic convertibles, has just gone on sale in the UK. Derived from Giorgetto Giugiaro’s multiple award-winning Alfa Brera design, the new Alfa Spider was developed by Pininfarina in collaboration with Alfa Romeo Centro Stile. Winner of the Cabrio of the Year award at the 2006 Geneva Motorshow, the new Alfa Spider combines superlative engineering with outstanding performance and handling characteristics appropriate to the pedigree of one of the world’s most famous sporting marques.
The Spider microsite describes the car as "..not just beautiful but also technologically advanced and inherently a thoroughbred sports car
So there you have it. Alfa regard it as a sports car. I hope the car does do well as I have a lot of time for the brand but I am extremely sceptical about predictions on residuals made at a car's launch when the brand track record is way below average. I remember the same thing being said about the previous GTV and Spider at their launch.
isuk said:
I've just watched Alfa struggle to make decent drivers cars over the last 10 years
isuk said:
They poured money into the BTCC programme with the 155 in the early 90's for example and managed to shift a few of these lacklustre cars on the back of the track success.
I havent driven the latest cars but I hope to test drive a spider soon. I will make my own mind up at that point.
Alfa have made some very good cars in the last 10 years.
The 145 cloverleaf, 147 twinspark and GTA, 156 esp the GTA and the 3.0l GTV/ Spider spring to mind.
Regarding the 155, you clearly haven't driven one of the later wide body cars, they were superb drivers cars with wonderful handling ( one of the car mags said the twinspark was the best handling FWD car they had ever driven) and superb engines. I had a wide body 2.5 V6 and it is the best car I have ever had.
isuk said:
The Spider microsite describes the car as "..not just beautiful but also technologically advanced and inherently a thoroughbred sports car
Fair enough, I must admit I'd never looked at the Spider microsite, although I think that the next sentence about the 'cosseting cockpit' suggests that it's true role is more as a tourer. But you're right - they do say it's a sports car, and that's questionable.
Pooh,
I have driven the wide bodied 155 in both T Spark and V6 guise. Whilst I thought they weren't bad I actually preferred the rear wheel drive 75 V6 which had better handling and one of the best engines made IMHO. I nearly bought a series one 155 1.8 Silverstone edition back in '93 but the deal I was offered was pretty poor so I went for an E36 318i instead. That was a smart move as I traded it a year later for a 318i coupe and lost less than 7% on the 318i with 20k miles on the clock (BMW's had cast iron residuals in those days) whilst the Alfa with similar mileage would have lost 60% which is scary. I went back to Alfa 3 years later and really enjoyed owning my GTV T Spark. I nearly went for a 3.0 V6 version when I came to replace it but BMW had just launched the E46 coupe and that blew the GTV away for handling, practicality (useless leeterbox boot in a GTV) and spec so I bought a 6 cylinder version and loved it. Did a packet on depreciation in the GTV as well in % terms so I know all about the advantages of buying them used versus new
I have driven the wide bodied 155 in both T Spark and V6 guise. Whilst I thought they weren't bad I actually preferred the rear wheel drive 75 V6 which had better handling and one of the best engines made IMHO. I nearly bought a series one 155 1.8 Silverstone edition back in '93 but the deal I was offered was pretty poor so I went for an E36 318i instead. That was a smart move as I traded it a year later for a 318i coupe and lost less than 7% on the 318i with 20k miles on the clock (BMW's had cast iron residuals in those days) whilst the Alfa with similar mileage would have lost 60% which is scary. I went back to Alfa 3 years later and really enjoyed owning my GTV T Spark. I nearly went for a 3.0 V6 version when I came to replace it but BMW had just launched the E46 coupe and that blew the GTV away for handling, practicality (useless leeterbox boot in a GTV) and spec so I bought a 6 cylinder version and loved it. Did a packet on depreciation in the GTV as well in % terms so I know all about the advantages of buying them used versus new
You are comparing FWD with RWD, if you prefer RWD then fair enough(I have had both and IMO they both have plus and minus points) but I still think that describing a wide body 155 as "lacklustre" is unfair.
Regarding depreciation, buying a new Alfa does not normally make much sense in percentage terms, though the GT seems to be doing rather well. Second hand is a different matter, my 155 V6 depreciated no more(in cash terms) during the 5 years I had it than an equivilent BMW 325 would have done, I would have had to borrow a lot more to buy the BMW so I was actually better off and I had a car that I preferred.
Regarding depreciation, buying a new Alfa does not normally make much sense in percentage terms, though the GT seems to be doing rather well. Second hand is a different matter, my 155 V6 depreciated no more(in cash terms) during the 5 years I had it than an equivilent BMW 325 would have done, I would have had to borrow a lot more to buy the BMW so I was actually better off and I had a car that I preferred.
Edited by pooh on Wednesday 28th February 15:44
I guess I should have made it more clear that I was referring to the series one 155 when I said lacklustre. The series 2 were definately much improved but still based on a compromised Fiat Tipo floorpan - again the product of a cash strapped Alfa Romeo not being given sufficient funds by Fiat to go it alone on a platform. If they had it would most likely have carried on with RWD over FWD.
I do much prefer RWD to be honest. The last front driver I had was an Audi A4 3.0 cabrio and I hated it so much from a handling point of view (the biggest understeerer I've ever driven) that I got rid of it after 6 months. Front wheel drive is ok in small to mid sized hatchbacks but sports saloons/coupes are a lot more fun with RWD IMHO.
I do much prefer RWD to be honest. The last front driver I had was an Audi A4 3.0 cabrio and I hated it so much from a handling point of view (the biggest understeerer I've ever driven) that I got rid of it after 6 months. Front wheel drive is ok in small to mid sized hatchbacks but sports saloons/coupes are a lot more fun with RWD IMHO.
isuk said:
I do much prefer RWD to be honest. The last front driver I had was an Audi A4 3.0 cabrio and I hated it so much from a handling point of view (the biggest understeerer I've ever driven) that I got rid of it after 6 months. Front wheel drive is ok in small to mid sized hatchbacks but sports saloons/coupes are a lot more fun with RWD IMHO.
That's a fair point, I seriously considered a TVR Chimeara before I baught my 3.0l GTV but in the end I went for the Alfa because I was not confident that my wife could handle a powerful RWD car(esp in the wet) and was concened for her safety. The GTV does not understeer as badly as I expected and in the dry it puts the power down very well, it does however require a little care when doing emergancy starts in the wet. Another reason was that most winters we get a fair bit of snow up here (almost nothing this winter) and fwd is a bit better in the snow.
jamieboy said:
isuk said:
despite your use of the word "sporty" they have always marketed themselves as a sporting brand.
I was contrasting 'sporty' cars with 'sports' cars.
isuk said:
Lack of performance, crappy dealers and lousy residuals
I'll point out again that the 'performance' version has not yet been announced, the dealer network is going through a process where loads of under-performing franchises are being removed and (hopefully) replaced with better ones, and there was a report last week which showed Glass's guide is predicting the Brera to be in the top ten depreciation-beating cars over three years.
So when will we see these GTA versions? 260bhp is already a good figure and the real world figures are disappointing.
pooh said:
Regarding the 155, you clearly haven't driven one of the later wide body cars, they were superb drivers cars with wonderful handling ( one of the car mags said the twinspark was the best handling FWD car they had ever driven) and superb engines. I had a wide body 2.5 V6 and it is the best car I have ever had.
Absolutely
My old wide body 155 ts could easily give the current crop of Alfas a lesson in the art of being a drivers car, sadly
markizok said:
Anyone driven one - Im in the market for a new car and am currently looking at an m3 cab, a4 cab or a curve ball with the spider - i have heard horrid things about alfa reliability as well as shocking depreciation, how do the new cars compare?
Yep.
The biggest disappointment I have driven in yrs and the feeling was shared by those around me and MonkeyMatt who also took one out at exactly the same time. We both drive the new 3.2 V6 and it is fair to say it was shocking. Too slow, rolled more than the Camberwell Carrot, handled like a barge and even the interior I found slightly disappointing. Considering we had spent all morning drooling over the thing, was absolutely gutted once we realised how heavy and gutless it was. Oh and it does not sound like an Alfa V6!
Ill be quite honest and say the 2.4JTDSABCXYZ thingy 159SW was the best thing we drove all day. It looks good, handles well, rides well, has a lovely interior and that diesel engine is an absolute cracker.
The Spyder though...steer clear unless you want to splurge at Autodelta.
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