Delta Integrale - any good?!?
Discussion
There's been a few discussions in the past in this forum. Have a check through, they might have been a while back now.
Also, this forum is useful: http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/pfx/
In brief: Fantastic to drive, I mean amazing. One of the only cars I would buy again.
Expensive to run. A few years ago the Lancia specialist told me to "anticipate" spending £2k a year to keep it tip top.
Personally, I think most of the special ones are a little to expensive now. I've seen limited editions for £14k
Also, this forum is useful: http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/pfx/
In brief: Fantastic to drive, I mean amazing. One of the only cars I would buy again.
Expensive to run. A few years ago the Lancia specialist told me to "anticipate" spending £2k a year to keep it tip top.
Personally, I think most of the special ones are a little to expensive now. I've seen limited editions for £14k
Great cars but I reckon that you'd be better off with an Audi quattro - better built & less prone to rust but just a capable on the road. Several quattros about now for £6-10K. I am biased, though!! I can put you in touch with the specialist who looks after mine and has a few to sell if interested.
sjm18 said:
Many thanks. Frailty (and the bills that go with it!) is my only real concern I guess. I've been driving German cars for last few years, hence my worries! Andy - Quattro makes a very interesting alternative - and of course is likely to be RHD! Which dealer do you use?
I use:
www.thequattroworkshop.co.uk/
Give Roger a ring - the "For Sale" bit of the site is not updated too often so a phone call will often reveal that he has several more in stock. He's based near Lutterworth, J 20 of M1.
Roger is also the tech secretary of the quattro owners club - what he does not know about quattros is not worth knowing, even Audi UK ring him to ask for advice these days!! I recommend the club, lots of good avice and parts available as well as access to the for sale section of the newsletter.
I've had mine for 12 years - awesome - and Roger has looked after it for the vast majority of that time.
PS. Sorry for hijacking the thread and suggesting a non italian car! I do race a Fiat Uno (better than it sounds), used to own an Alfa Sprint and would dearly love a GTV6.
Edited by andy97 on Thursday 15th March 09:21
Yes they are good cars, I have had 2. My tuppence worth:
There is a lot of nonsense talked about running costs. If you want a figure - budget a grand a year then you are doing ok - spend that and it will hold its value anyway.
I did some servicing bits and pieces myself, brake discs are easy for example.
Some stuff is tricky but there are plenty of specialists out there charging £30-50 + vat labour per hour. Parts availability is fairly good. I got some from the local Fiat dealer.
Try not to get carried away and spend a fortune on buying one, there are good ones out there at sensible prices.
Rust is you biggest enemy. Look everywhere! Repair is possible though, if a rusty car comes up cheap.
which Richard Thorne car where you interested in?
this looks quite cool - not for shrinking violets though!
www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/138675.htm
There is a lot of nonsense talked about running costs. If you want a figure - budget a grand a year then you are doing ok - spend that and it will hold its value anyway.
I did some servicing bits and pieces myself, brake discs are easy for example.
Some stuff is tricky but there are plenty of specialists out there charging £30-50 + vat labour per hour. Parts availability is fairly good. I got some from the local Fiat dealer.
Try not to get carried away and spend a fortune on buying one, there are good ones out there at sensible prices.
Rust is you biggest enemy. Look everywhere! Repair is possible though, if a rusty car comes up cheap.
which Richard Thorne car where you interested in?
this looks quite cool - not for shrinking violets though!
www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/138675.htm
Edited by Dave80s on Thursday 15th March 11:37
I have been lucky enough to own some lovely cars over the last 20 years but my my biggest regret is not having owned an Integrale.
I can remember reading an article in Car magazine (IIRC) when the first 16v Integrale was released in the uk testing it against the 911 964 C2, the Integrale got a fantatic review wiping the floor with the Porsche on B roads and looked so fantastic. I have owned a few "modern rally car reps" (STI Subaru's and Evo's) but capable as they are,they seem sanitised and souless compared to an Integrale, go on buy one
I can remember reading an article in Car magazine (IIRC) when the first 16v Integrale was released in the uk testing it against the 911 964 C2, the Integrale got a fantatic review wiping the floor with the Porsche on B roads and looked so fantastic. I have owned a few "modern rally car reps" (STI Subaru's and Evo's) but capable as they are,they seem sanitised and souless compared to an Integrale, go on buy one
Ive had my EVO almost a year now..
Its been completely reliable so far..
Straight after i got it I spent £600 getting all the belts changed for peace of mind.. And the suspension bushes were replaced.
get a good rust free / un-modified one... you will not regret it..
I also looked at Quattros before i got the integrale.. Decided against it after hearing horror stories about spare parts.. Some parts for the grale are getting harder to find, but i think the spare situation is much better for the grale..
There are plenty of specialists around too...
Get one !!
Its been completely reliable so far..
Straight after i got it I spent £600 getting all the belts changed for peace of mind.. And the suspension bushes were replaced.
get a good rust free / un-modified one... you will not regret it..
I also looked at Quattros before i got the integrale.. Decided against it after hearing horror stories about spare parts.. Some parts for the grale are getting harder to find, but i think the spare situation is much better for the grale..
There are plenty of specialists around too...
Get one !!
Not that it helps much........ but my friend Simon runs his as a daily drive to and from work, only about 20 mins admittedly, and loves it to bits. I was really surprised at the power it still has too, pulls like a freight train. I recommended an Alfa/Italian specialist near me and he's so impressed with them and their knowledge he takes it there if anything ever goes wrong - which *touch wood* it hasn't really yet.
Had the Verde Yorke for about a month now. I use it as my faily driver and Ive done two 1000km+ trips in it. No problems, no issues, great fun. It doesnt quite attract as much attention as the Sagaris...nothing does...but it holds its own and when the roads get twisty the Grale feels like it is working with you, egging your on to push it harder, to *really* let it show you what it can do. The Sagaris was a pussy cat that felt like it wanted to kill you in comparison.
sjm18 said:
Quattro makes a very interesting alternative
But it's not an Integrale. When you're sitting in your Quattro and an Integrale pulls up alongside, you just know which car you'd rather be in.
Due to the "no naming and shaming" policy, PM me if you want info about Richard Thorne. There are other places that will sell you a better car for both less money and less aggro.
jacobyte said:
sjm18 said:
Quattro makes a very interesting alternative
But it's not an Integrale. When you're sitting in your Quattro and an Integrale pulls up alongside, you just know which car you'd rather be in.
Yep. The quattro. In the real world, just as quick (driver for driver) but the quattro has one thing that the Integrale (a great car I am not denying) will never have....the fact that it was the FIRST, ORIGINAL & ICONIC 4wd rally supercar that all others had to copy to catch up. Oh, and its galvanised.
andy97 said:
jacobyte said:
sjm18 said:
Quattro makes a very interesting alternative
But it's not an Integrale. When you're sitting in your Quattro and an Integrale pulls up alongside, you just know which car you'd rather be in.
Yep. The quattro. In the real world, just as quick (driver for driver) but the quattro has one thing that the Integrale (a great car I am not denying) will never have....the fact that it was the FIRST, ORIGINAL & ICONIC 4wd rally supercar that all others had to copy to catch up. Oh, and its galvanised.
The quattro may have been the original but the Lancia was a more successful rally car(Still the most successful) and it does not suffer from "hello Mr sheep" under-steer like all but the final SWB quattros and is an all round better car to drive.
I haven't dealt with Mr Thorne, so I couldn't comment there, but I have dealt (to my horror) with other supposed Lancia specialists...
As I wrote here a while back, an alarming amount of Italian specialists are quite simply criminal in their negligence - be very, very careful.
To add insult to injury, some of these so-called "specialists" prepare superb cars for themselves to demonstrate their work, so it can be very easy to walk into a trap.
I won't name the person in question (a real sociopath), but I can recall several Integrales that were bodged by him. There was one where he didn't replace the drain plug on the middle diff... The client got a four-figure bill and thought it was a normal fault...(this story came from a junior mechanic at his works)
I could go on and on about the charlatans - do be careful.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Peter Ward is still in the Lancia servicing game? He was highly recommended.
As I wrote here a while back, an alarming amount of Italian specialists are quite simply criminal in their negligence - be very, very careful.
To add insult to injury, some of these so-called "specialists" prepare superb cars for themselves to demonstrate their work, so it can be very easy to walk into a trap.
I won't name the person in question (a real sociopath), but I can recall several Integrales that were bodged by him. There was one where he didn't replace the drain plug on the middle diff... The client got a four-figure bill and thought it was a normal fault...(this story came from a junior mechanic at his works)
I could go on and on about the charlatans - do be careful.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Peter Ward is still in the Lancia servicing game? He was highly recommended.
pooh said:
andy97 said:
jacobyte said:
sjm18 said:
Quattro makes a very interesting alternative
But it's not an Integrale. When you're sitting in your Quattro and an Integrale pulls up alongside, you just know which car you'd rather be in.
Yep. The quattro. In the real world, just as quick (driver for driver) but the quattro has one thing that the Integrale (a great car I am not denying) will never have....the fact that it was the FIRST, ORIGINAL & ICONIC 4wd rally supercar that all others had to copy to catch up. Oh, and its galvanised.
The quattro may have been the original but the Lancia was a more successful rally car(Still the most successful) and it does not suffer from "hello Mr sheep" under-steer like all but the final SWB quattros and is an all round better car to drive.
The quattro can under-steer, youve just got to know how to drive it, when those 5 cylinders are barking there is nothing else like it, as good as the integrales are there is only one original "quattro"
flat16 said:
I haven't dealt with Mr Thorne, so I couldn't comment there, but I have dealt (to my horror) with other supposed Lancia specialists...
The recommended ones are Paxtons, Auto Integrale, Racing Technologies, Tanc Barratt, TNI, and another one in Cheshire whose name I forget. There are a few self-proclaimed factory-appointed specialists which shouldn't be touched even with the longest and dirtiest of bargepoles. flat16 said:
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Peter Ward is still in the Lancia servicing game? He was highly recommended.
Yes, he is Racing Technologies in Wandsworth. He still looks after some Integrales. Not cheap, but does an extremely professional job.
BrianTheYank said:
while on the topic of integrales and quattros, anybody know how easy/difficult it would be to import one to the states?
You can only import an Integrale into the USA if it's a competition car, and then only if you take it over in pieces (i.e. shell with no engine or running gear, etc). You can import into Canada though. Not sure about the Quattro.
Re the Audi - yes, it was "the first". But as already mentioned - whether or not the stats say it's faster, handles better, better looking, has better brakes, yada yada - it's still not an Integrale. The Integrale has "something" that the others don't have. That's what it's all about - the way something makes you feel. If the Audi does that for some people, then great, but it's a personal choice, and this thread is about Integrales
. pooh said:
The quattro may have been the original but the Lancia was a more successful rally car(Still the most successful) and it does not suffer from "hello Mr sheep" under-steer like all but the final SWB quattros and is an all round better car to drive.
I'm sorry to continue to write about quatros on an Integrale thread but I'll carry on anyway because they are directly comparable if you are looking to buy a "classic" 4wd performance car rather than a japanese Subevo. And this thread was started by someone looking to buy an Integrale but he seems, from his later threads to be prepared to consider alternatives. Of course the difficulty with all us car enthusiasts is that we all have our biases and as this is an Alfa/Lancia/ Fiat forum I would expect the Integrale enthusiasts to back the Integrale. There will be no truly objective opinions about Integrales or quattros - we all just love our particular cars and that's great.
I just happen to believe that in the real world (which is the world that most of us occupy, rather than a rally stage, hillclimb or race track) the quattro is the better bet. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this forum so we will have to agree to disagree and enjoy our chosen chariots nonetheless. The quattro is probably just as quick on real roads and in real traffic (and it might even be quicker as its RHD) but it is galvanised and better built and more reliable. There are also (possibly) more available to buy. The downside is that there are some spares issues (that the quattro owners club is trying to rectify), its not a hatchback and on a race track day my 944 Turbo is probably more suitable (but then it is also probably nore suitable than an Subevo too). I admit that the Integrale is a fantastic car and very very nimble but how many of us get anywhere near the limit to show this difference up.
The quattro does understeer a bit but the later cars with the Torsen centre Diff do not understeer anything like as much as the early ones and lets face it, most cars understeer these days, even RWD BMWs - its the way manufacturers set them up because it is considered safer for the average driver. The quattros from 89 onwards are certainly not "hello Me Sheep"! They remain a very tactile, involving, enjoyable and quick car to drive.
As for the rally comparison, its not really relevant because the quattro and the Integrale never really competed against each other (unless we talk about the mid engined compound super/turbo charged Group B S4 and once again, not a relavent comparison because that, and the Sport quattro S1, were about as close to road cars as I am to being as talented as Lewis Hamilton and I thought we were talking about buying a road car). The quattro was a Group 4 and Group B car, it never competed against the Group A Integrale.
Please don't get me wrong, I love seeing Integrales out - there's one that I see regularly near me in Castle Donington and they are both fantastic modern Classic cars that helped re-invent the performance car and the rally world, both need preserving and using - but I am happy with my choice and I am pleased that you are all happy with yours. I just wanted to provide a counter point! I don't doubt that the Integrale moved things on....you'd expect that.... but if we the choice was down to common sense, for the same money and maintenance costs we'd probably all just buy an Imprezza. The fact is we don't because we like the character of our originals....but, without the quattro there would not have been an Integrale (or an Imprezza)!! Enjoy and wave at me if you see me out and about in the E Midlands, we are all on the same side really.
Edited by andy97 on Monday 19th March 10:09
''I just happen to believe that in the real world (which is the world that most of us occupy, rather than a rally stage, hillclimb or race track) the quattro is the better bet. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this forum so we will have to agree to disagree and enjoy our chosen chariots nonetheless. The quattro is probably just as quick on real roads and in real traffic (and it might even be quicker as its RHD) but it is galvanised and better built and more reliable. There are also (possibly) more available to buy. The downside is that there are some spares issues (that the quattro owners club is trying to rectify), its not a hatchback and on a race track day my 944 Turbo is probably more suitable (but then it is also probably nore suitable than an Subevo too). I admit that the Integrale is a fantastic car and very very nimble but how many of us get anywhere near the limit to show this difference up.''
Have you ever driven an integrale?
I was originally after a quattro.. I drove several good ones.. UR/MB & RR.. The sound of that engine is amazing.. much better than the integrale.. i used to love watching them rally when i was kid in the early 80s.. Its was probably the first car i lusted after.. It was the original 4x4 rallycar as you mention..
My feeling was that the integrale was the more nimble and quicker car on B-roads.. Seems to grip better.. Seemed to pull harder.. Never took a quattro onto a motorway.. So maybe its quicker in a straight line.. Didnt feel it.. I think in a real world of A & B roads the Lancia pips it.. Thats what i ended up buying.. As far as quattros being galvanised , i think 17-23 yr old galvanising offers little better protection than paint... Ive seen 10 yr old 993s with rust... The spare situation is probaly similar for the Lancia & the Audi..
The original poster will have to drive a few of each and see which he prefers..
Im sure whichever one he picks, he will end up loving..
Have you ever driven an integrale?
I was originally after a quattro.. I drove several good ones.. UR/MB & RR.. The sound of that engine is amazing.. much better than the integrale.. i used to love watching them rally when i was kid in the early 80s.. Its was probably the first car i lusted after.. It was the original 4x4 rallycar as you mention..
My feeling was that the integrale was the more nimble and quicker car on B-roads.. Seems to grip better.. Seemed to pull harder.. Never took a quattro onto a motorway.. So maybe its quicker in a straight line.. Didnt feel it.. I think in a real world of A & B roads the Lancia pips it.. Thats what i ended up buying.. As far as quattros being galvanised , i think 17-23 yr old galvanising offers little better protection than paint... Ive seen 10 yr old 993s with rust... The spare situation is probaly similar for the Lancia & the Audi..
The original poster will have to drive a few of each and see which he prefers..
Im sure whichever one he picks, he will end up loving..
Edited by doog on Monday 19th March 14:42
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