Investing in Wine
Discussion
Just thought I'd let everyone know an interesting development.
The top end of the wine market has exploded, mainly due to the market expanding, China, Korea etc.
First growth Bordeaux prices in particular have risen steadily in the last 3 months.
An example: Lafite, Mouton, Ausone, Latour and a few others have gone from roughly £6000 per case to £9000, £10,000 and £12,000 !
and don't forget.. that's tax free profit
There is no capital gains tax on wine!
In 3 months
Christ, it would even have been worth borrowing the money to invest
Happy to assist with further info should anyone require it.
Cheers
Bebs
The top end of the wine market has exploded, mainly due to the market expanding, China, Korea etc.
First growth Bordeaux prices in particular have risen steadily in the last 3 months.
An example: Lafite, Mouton, Ausone, Latour and a few others have gone from roughly £6000 per case to £9000, £10,000 and £12,000 !
and don't forget.. that's tax free profit
There is no capital gains tax on wine!In 3 months
Christ, it would even have been worth borrowing the money to invest
Happy to assist with further info should anyone require it.
Cheers
Bebs
Bebs, i'll have a bit o' that.srebbe64 said:
I wish you'd told me three months ago. Out of interest, what will the price be in another three months?
It's obviously difficult to predict but unless there is a stock market crash - or worldwide downsurge in the financial market I can only see the top end of the wine market continuing to rise.Take Lafite 1982. A wine that 1 year ago was trading for £7000/8000. Its not selling for £18,000!!
Wines don't really ever go down in price so providing you are buying the right stuff its much like property. Sit on it and it will increase in value. Trick is to buy the right vintage and Chateau. and of course with the added incentive of no capital gains tax!
Friend of mine had £4000 to invest 3 months ago. Not enough for one of the big Chateaux so I suggested buying 2 cases of Chateau Leoville Las Cases 2000 at £2000 each from us. A wine that has been given a high score. Its now trading for £2700 case. A tidy profit in 3 months wouldn't you say?
exboxster said:
Hmm. Interesting. Would anyone be able to tell me what 1 bottle of 1975 Petrus is worth ? I was given it 5 years ago and have had it stored since then.
No problem. It's trading at around £1100 per bottle at the moment providing it is in good condition, i.e. the level of wine is at the base of the neck or higher.It's not a great vintage as you probably know but Petrus is always expensive and sought after. A case of the 2000 vintage is now trading at £30,000 !
Bebs said:
Friend of mine had £4000 to invest 3 months ago. Not enough for one of the big Chateaux so I suggested buying 2 cases of Chateau Leoville Las Cases 2000 at £2000 each from us. A wine that has been given a high score. Its now trading for £2700 case. A tidy profit in 3 months wouldn't you say?
So that sealed, good provenance case of Las Cases '83 I bought for £200 is probably worth revaluing than?HiRich said:
Bebs said:
Friend of mine had £4000 to invest 3 months ago. Not enough for one of the big Chateaux so I suggested buying 2 cases of Chateau Leoville Las Cases 2000 at £2000 each from us. A wine that has been given a high score. Its now trading for £2700 case. A tidy profit in 3 months wouldn't you say?
So that sealed, good provenance case of Las Cases '83 I bought for £200 is probably worth revaluing than?Cheers
Bebs said:
exboxster said:
Hmm. Interesting. Would anyone be able to tell me what 1 bottle of 1975 Petrus is worth ? I was given it 5 years ago and have had it stored since then.
No problem. It's trading at around £1100 per bottle at the moment providing it is in good condition, i.e. the level of wine is at the base of the neck or higher.It's not a great vintage as you probably know but Petrus is always expensive and sought after. A case of the 2000 vintage is now trading at £30,000 !
I remember reading about this, but I know nothing about wine either. I recall reading a rate of return over the year of about 10% - is this realistic or can one expect more? Do you actually advise people which wines to buy and what returns they can expect to see? What's the minimum amount you'd recommend investing in wine?
JustinP1 said:
Bebs said:
exboxster said:
Hmm. Interesting. Would anyone be able to tell me what 1 bottle of 1975 Petrus is worth ? I was given it 5 years ago and have had it stored since then.
No problem. It's trading at around £1100 per bottle at the moment providing it is in good condition, i.e. the level of wine is at the base of the neck or higher.It's not a great vintage as you probably know but Petrus is always expensive and sought after. A case of the 2000 vintage is now trading at £30,000 !
g4ry13 said:
I remember reading about this, but I know nothing about wine either. I recall reading a rate of return over the year of about 10% - is this realistic or can one expect more? Do you actually advise people which wines to buy and what returns they can expect to see? What's the minimum amount you'd recommend investing in wine?
Investing is never black and white of course but the key thing to get right is the chateau and the vintage. Do that abd you should get a better return than 10%. See my examples above.I'm a wine broker so yes we do advise people and wine portfolios.
Think of it in terms of cars. Buy a Daewoo and it'll never appreciate in value. Buy a limited run (Enzo) and it might increase (which it has).
Its the same for wine - you have to buy the best of the best for it to increase greatly.
A case of Bordeaux at £200 will never increase to £5000 or £10,000.
But say you had bought a case of Petrus 2000 for £10,000 in 2002 - its now worth £30,000.
If I were to buy an expensive bottle of wine, I assume it would need to be stored correctly, and assume again this would come at a cost, unless you can do it yourself that is.
As an investor (never in wine however) i'd be interested in your comments on how this works.
Let's say (just for now) I had £2,000 to play with.
Cheers
As an investor (never in wine however) i'd be interested in your comments on how this works.
Let's say (just for now) I had £2,000 to play with.
Cheers
thewave said:
If I were to buy an expensive bottle of wine, I assume it would need to be stored correctly, and assume again this would come at a cost, unless you can do it yourself that is.
As an investor (never in wine however) i'd be interested in your comments on how this works.
Let's say (just for now) I had £2,000 to play with.
Cheers
I wouldn't advise you to buy 1 bottle. You have to buy a case of 12 really, in original wooden case etc.As an investor (never in wine however) i'd be interested in your comments on how this works.
Let's say (just for now) I had £2,000 to play with.
Cheers
For £2000 you'd get a case. In my example above I suggested the leoville las cases 2000 at £2000 3 moths ago - now at around £2700/2800.
It is important of course that the case is cellared properly. Lots of big wine warehouses around the country offer this service at around £10-20 per case per year.
This is relatively little compared to the value of the case of course and prevents you from drinking any of it as well
Its better to buy 1 decent case rather than 4 cases at £500 as these are unlikely to increase as much as the more expensive case in the long term.
The big factor with wine investment is of course that the profit is tax free!
No capital gains tax on wine.
Edited by Bebs on Friday 10th August 15:07
Ok, so say I buy a case of wine for £2000 how much commission do I have to pay (i'm assuming traders make commission on this otherwise they wouldn't do it) and then if I sell it at £3000 for example how much will you take on that? Is there anywhere one can find out more about historical prices, what's hot in the market and so on as i'm fairly un-educated about it.
I think I read something about wine funds which invest in wines for you, is there such a thing or did I imagine that? If so what sort of returns can one expect from them (no doubt, not as much as if you went alone.)
I think I read something about wine funds which invest in wines for you, is there such a thing or did I imagine that? If so what sort of returns can one expect from them (no doubt, not as much as if you went alone.)
g4ry13 said:
Ok, so say I buy a case of wine for £2000 how much commission do I have to pay (i'm assuming traders make commission on this otherwise they wouldn't do it) and then if I sell it at £3000 for example how much will you take on that? Is there anywhere one can find out more about historical prices, what's hot in the market and so on as i'm fairly un-educated about it.
I think I read something about wine funds which invest in wines for you, is there such a thing or did I imagine that? If so what sort of returns can one expect from them (no doubt, not as much as if you went alone.)
You don't pay a commision. We source the case for you from our contacts in Bordeaux and the trade and sell the case to you at the current open market value.I think I read something about wine funds which invest in wines for you, is there such a thing or did I imagine that? If so what sort of returns can one expect from them (no doubt, not as much as if you went alone.)
Come selling time you just ring round a number of brokers and they will offer you a price which will obviously be a little under current selling prices.
Alternatively you can enter it for auction at one of the big houses and they'll take 10-15% from the hammer price.
Yes, there are wine funds where you basically just invest am amount (variable) and they will do the rest. I'm not sure what sort of returns they are promising but 10% is probably not far off. However, I think this slightly takes away the 'fun' aspect of it and clearly you will not gain as much as if you went it alone.
Excellent questions BTW
Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff