Alonso going to Ferrari?
Discussion
Pooh said:
flemke said:
Pooh said:
Maybe you should, then you might actually have some idea of what you are talking about.
Maybe I already have.
It's not exactly beyond belief that people on PH would be acquainted with people on an F1 team. Loads of PHers are.
Anyhow, as I said above, often the person who was most personally affected by the decisions of others is the least credible source for an objective description of what actually happened. This applies to all parts of life, and does not mean that the individual involved is not sincerely convinced that his version is absolutely factual.
Cheers.
flemke said:
Pooh said:
flemke said:
Pooh said:
Maybe you should, then you might actually have some idea of what you are talking about.
Maybe I already have.It's not exactly beyond belief that people on PH would be acquainted with people on an F1 team. Loads of PHers are.
Anyhow, as I said above, often the person who was most personally affected by the decisions of others is the least credible source for an objective description of what actually happened. This applies to all parts of life, and does not mean that the individual involved is not sincerely convinced that his version is absolutely factual.
Cheers.
Pooh said:
flemke said:
Pooh said:
flemke said:
Pooh said:
Maybe you should, then you might actually have some idea of what you are talking about.
Maybe I already have.It's not exactly beyond belief that people on PH would be acquainted with people on an F1 team. Loads of PHers are.
Anyhow, as I said above, often the person who was most personally affected by the decisions of others is the least credible source for an objective description of what actually happened. This applies to all parts of life, and does not mean that the individual involved is not sincerely convinced that his version is absolutely factual.
Cheers.
My point is that one does not need to read his autobiography, for the simple reason that he wrote it, and the subject is perhaps the single issue about which one would expect him to be the most sensitive, and have the greatest concern for his place in history: "Why did you never win a championship, David?"
I'm not saying that, if I were in his place, my version would not be even more subjective than DC's. Nonetheless, one could read his personal version, or one could choose to attach more credibility to the views of other people who were also involved but who are not being judged, who entire professional lives are not weighted around this single issue, and who are personally known to oneself.
If I believed everything that I read, they would have carried me out a long time ago.
Anyhow, I believe that Alonso is going to Ferrari.
MrKipling43 said:
flemke said:
Anyhow, I believe that Alonso is going to Ferrari.
For some reason I'm still not convinced by this - gut feeling.Unless of course Raikkonen retires within the next two years.
One might ask whether Alonso would sign if his teammate were KR, who is his equal. I'd speculate that he would, if only to face down all the criticism that he's afraid to compete on equal terms. Besides, it's almost a dead cert that Raikkonen will retire before Alonso does, so even if KR were to sign for another 2-3 years, Alonso might join Scumbalino Rampante with the intention of waiting him out.
flemke said:
MrKipling43 said:
flemke said:
Anyhow, I believe that Alonso is going to Ferrari.
For some reason I'm still not convinced by this - gut feeling.Unless of course Raikkonen retires within the next two years.
One might ask whether Alonso would sign if his teammate were KR, who is his equal. I'd speculate that he would, if only to face down all the criticism that he's afraid to compete on equal terms. Besides, it's almost a dead cert that Raikkonen will retire before Alonso does, so even if KR were to sign for another 2-3 years, Alonso might join Scumbalino Rampante with the intention of waiting him out.
CommanderJameson said:
flemke said:
MrKipling43 said:
flemke said:
Anyhow, I believe that Alonso is going to Ferrari.
For some reason I'm still not convinced by this - gut feeling.Unless of course Raikkonen retires within the next two years.
One might ask whether Alonso would sign if his teammate were KR, who is his equal. I'd speculate that he would, if only to face down all the criticism that he's afraid to compete on equal terms. Besides, it's almost a dead cert that Raikkonen will retire before Alonso does, so even if KR were to sign for another 2-3 years, Alonso might join Scumbalino Rampante with the intention of waiting him out.
He's 27 y.o. and he's won 8 GPs, which, even if you're in the best car, is more than respectable.
Derek Smith said:
stuttgartmetal said:
Bernie, for one, would love Alonso in a Ferrari.
Whatever you think about the guy, listen to him on the pit/car radio. He's calm, thinking, calculating. And hes making that Renault perform far better than it should.
I think that therein lies the problem with Alonso. When he's calm he can do the job to an exceptionally high level. I wouldn't put him in the all-time top 10 at this stage, but the potential is there. However, when he's not calm, thinking and calculating he's a liability. At McLaren he blocked his number two in the pitlane. Not sensible. He cheated by the willing use of data that he knew had been gained improperly. He threatened Ron Dennis.Whatever you think about the guy, listen to him on the pit/car radio. He's calm, thinking, calculating. And hes making that Renault perform far better than it should.
My concern is that whilst I expect LH never to drive into the back of a car stopped for red light at the end of the pitlane as this sort of thing is easy to learn, unreasonable emotional reactions are more difficult to eradicate.
And pre last race I too would have said that Alonso is pushing the Renault to its limits. But then Piquet, whom I do not reckon, qualified close behind him with a bigger fuel load and then actually overtook him on the track. On race day I thought Piquet had the better wet-weather setup but further consideration brought up that if this was indeed the case, how come Piquet was so close to FA in qually.
johnfelstead said:
Piquet only got close to Alonso in the race because Renault made the same mistake as Ferrari did with Kimi and didnt put fresh primes on in the first pitstop, Alonso is clearly miles ahead of Piquet's race pace at the moment.
I accept the difference between their respective ability, it's just that it seems odd that Piquet got so close on qually and with a heavier fuel load (two or three laps I seem to remember) and then overtook him during the race. this makes two races that they've been within feet of one-another. So I was wondering if Alonso's mind was really with his current team or his next destination.Edited by Derek Smith on Monday 14th July 09:30
I'm still not aure about Alonso to Ferrari- would he want raikkonen as a team mate?. If not (and I suspect not), he would want someone a lot slower then himn, who would be willing to move over for him, which I'm not sure Massa would either. Certainly not in Bahrain, anyway.
Oh, Flemke, if you havent alredy, read the Biography "Step on it" by Stroker Ace. A great read
Oh, Flemke, if you havent alredy, read the Biography "Step on it" by Stroker Ace. A great read
flemke said:
One might ask whether Alonso would sign if his teammate were KR, who is his equal. I'd speculate that he would, if only to face down all the criticism that he's afraid to compete on equal terms.
Yeah, that would make sense. If, of course, he really isn't afraid to compete on equal terms.
flemke said:
Besides, it's almost a dead cert that Raikkonen will retire before Alonso does, so even if KR were to sign for another 2-3 years, Alonso might join Scumbalino Rampante with the intention of waiting him out.
I can't see that happening personally, I think one thing we've learnt about Alonso over the last 18 months is that 'patience' isn't exactly his strongest suit. Still, I suppose it could make sense to go there 'under' Raikkonen (as you said) to familiarise himself with the team in preparation for domination once Kimi leaves.The only problem I can see with that plan is the signing of Vettel to replace Kimi.
CommanderJameson said:
flemke said:
MrKipling43 said:
flemke said:
Anyhow, I believe that Alonso is going to Ferrari.
For some reason I'm still not convinced by this - gut feeling.Unless of course Raikkonen retires within the next two years.
One might ask whether Alonso would sign if his teammate were KR, who is his equal. I'd speculate that he would, if only to face down all the criticism that he's afraid to compete on equal terms. Besides, it's almost a dead cert that Raikkonen will retire before Alonso does, so even if KR were to sign for another 2-3 years, Alonso might join Scumbalino Rampante with the intention of waiting him out.
He’d also built up a 15 second gap over Hamilton & Raikkonen until the safety car wiped out the lead. Silverstone was obviously not one of his better races, setup issues aside, though perhaps his wet weather ability should be judged on more than one performance alone.
Cheers
MrKipling43 said:
flemke said:
One might ask whether Alonso would sign if his teammate were KR, who is his equal. I'd speculate that he would, if only to face down all the criticism that he's afraid to compete on equal terms.
Yeah, that would make sense. If, of course, he really isn't afraid to compete on equal terms.flemke said:
Besides, it's almost a dead cert that Raikkonen will retire before Alonso does, so even if KR were to sign for another 2-3 years, Alonso might join Scumbalino Rampante with the intention of waiting him out.
I can't see that happening personally, I think one thing we've learnt about Alonso over the last 18 months is that 'patience' isn't exactly his strongest suit. Still, I suppose it could make sense to go there 'under' Raikkonen (as you said) to familiarise himself with the team in preparation for domination once Kimi leaves.The only problem I can see with that plan is the signing of Vettel to replace Kimi.
Was it Flemke who remarked on Todt's influence viz. Massa? This is pretty much spot-on. Montezemolo has been a little quiet recently hasn't he?
Vettel is at RBR on a 2 year contract next year (with option to extend for 1 year beyond that I believe). The rumour in the press room is that the contract was signed some time ago and may be announced as early as next weekend at his home GP. Have you heard that too Mr Kipling - wasn't it you who had some contacts/was a journo?
I think it unlikely that he will be a Ferrari driver before 2012 and I'd wonder whether BMW retain any sway over him too (I doubt this actually).
rubystone said:
Was it Flemke who remarked on Todt's influence viz. Massa? This is pretty much spot-on. Montezemolo has been a little quiet recently hasn't he?
Yeah, I don't think anyone doubts that Massa was given a little help by the Todt connection. You're right though, LDM has been a bit quiet of late - although when you think about it, so has Ferrari in general. Perhaps that's just because they're being a lot quieter than last year!rubystone said:
Vettel is at RBR on a 2 year contract next year (with option to extend for 1 year beyond that I believe). The rumour in the press room is that the contract was signed some time ago and may be announced as early as next weekend at his home GP. Have you heard that too Mr Kipling - wasn't it you who had some contacts/was a journo?
I had heard that, but a two year contract takes him to the end of 2010 (the year it seems most likely that Alonso will join Ferrari) which could mean that Vettel will be joining just one year after Alonso joins the team.Looking back at my post, I didn't make it clear that what I meant re. Vettel was that he would be signed to replace Kimi on the assumption that Alonso had already been signed to replace Massa, rather than Sebastien being signed in preference to Fernando. There's a chance that we could see a situation like the McLaren '07 'problems'.
rubystone said:
I think it unlikely that he will be a Ferrari driver before 2012 and I'd wonder whether BMW retain any sway over him too (I doubt this actually).
I reckon you might be a year late on that prediction.LDM is uncharacteristically quiet at the moment - the calm before the storm perhaps? I guess it is possible that Ferrari may make a play for Vettel after his RBR contract finishes and Ferrari are perhaps the one team that could engineer virtually anything if they wished to end a contract early.
So I guess we are in complete agreement then!
So I guess we are in complete agreement then!
rubystone said:
LDM is uncharacteristically quiet at the moment - the calm before the storm perhaps? I guess it is possible that Ferrari may make a play for Vettel after his RBR contract finishes and Ferrari are perhaps the one team that could engineer virtually anything if they wished to end a contract early.
So I guess we are in complete agreement then!
It would appear so! So I guess we are in complete agreement then!
Alonso may dislike having to drive head-to-head against an equally good driver, but I guarantee you that he even more dislikes driving a car that cannot win.
All the changes to next year's formula create the possibility that Williams, Red Bull, etc. could actually build a winner, but the brute fact is that the most likely winning cars for the next 2-3 years will be the usual suspects of Ferrari, McLaren and BMW.
I'm not sure what happened with McLaren, maybe it was that Alonso forgot to send Ron Dennis a Christmas card this year, but for some reason Ferdy doesn't seem too popular in Woking these days.
BMW? Alonso's duplicity and histrionics are not the sorts of things that go down well in Germany and, anyhow, why would you sign Alonso when you had Kubica?
That suggests to me that Alonso's only realistic hope of another title would be with the boys from Maxanello, I mean Maranello, and that, if he's given the opportunity, he will take it.
All the changes to next year's formula create the possibility that Williams, Red Bull, etc. could actually build a winner, but the brute fact is that the most likely winning cars for the next 2-3 years will be the usual suspects of Ferrari, McLaren and BMW.
I'm not sure what happened with McLaren, maybe it was that Alonso forgot to send Ron Dennis a Christmas card this year, but for some reason Ferdy doesn't seem too popular in Woking these days.
BMW? Alonso's duplicity and histrionics are not the sorts of things that go down well in Germany and, anyhow, why would you sign Alonso when you had Kubica?
That suggests to me that Alonso's only realistic hope of another title would be with the boys from Maxanello, I mean Maranello, and that, if he's given the opportunity, he will take it.
Next years regulations and new car design will definitely put a skew on the curve. I am not that convinced that Ferrari have the momentum within the team to produce a world beating car for 2009. I see their team, post Schumi, as performing well this year, because their F1 management have inherited a robust structure from RB, RB and JT with no doubt a direction well in place, but have they the design capability there ?
The new changes will be a good indicator as Im sure they'll have to now work it all out for themselves. With such a radical change to the next car, have they got "it" still?
Unresolved in my book.
I would look to design genii for next year performers.
Adrian Neweys team, and of course McLaren, but at the forefront I would put Ross Brawns new car. If I were Alonso, Id be putting myself up primarily for a drive at Honda and build up to another World Title.
EFG
The new changes will be a good indicator as Im sure they'll have to now work it all out for themselves. With such a radical change to the next car, have they got "it" still?
Unresolved in my book.
I would look to design genii for next year performers.
Adrian Neweys team, and of course McLaren, but at the forefront I would put Ross Brawns new car. If I were Alonso, Id be putting myself up primarily for a drive at Honda and build up to another World Title.
EFG
Edited by stuttgartmetal on Tuesday 15th July 10:04
In such situations, where rule changes put extra demands not only on the purse, but on internal structures and systems, the richer, better established and properly organised teams will hae a distinct advantage. Certainly, the extra costs involved in this major change to the regulations, will hurt the smaller teams.
I would suggest that some teams might come up with a design advantage initially but then the bigger, richer teams will be able to copy it within weeks.
My feeling is that in the early part of the calandar there might be a bit of a mix at the front with some strange and unusual bods and teams on the podium, when the European season starts proper (if it can start properly without a British GP) there will be Ferrari, McLaren and BMW at the front again. It's all down to money.
The present regs are so well established that it costs a tremendous amount of money and effort to gain just a tenth or two. With new regs, then research is likely to turn up a massive advantage. instead of, as at present, a second or two convering the grid, we'll go back to six or seven.
But it is a fact of life that change costs and only the rich teams will gain any immediate advantage. The others will have to play catch-up, as they have done for the past couple of seasons, and then, just when they've got a chance of getting out of the midfield, the rules will change again. The only time this didn't happen was in the days of the 3-litre forumla and the wonderful DFV and then, for a team to gain an advantage, it required a revolutionary concept to break the deadlock.
I would suggest that some teams might come up with a design advantage initially but then the bigger, richer teams will be able to copy it within weeks.
My feeling is that in the early part of the calandar there might be a bit of a mix at the front with some strange and unusual bods and teams on the podium, when the European season starts proper (if it can start properly without a British GP) there will be Ferrari, McLaren and BMW at the front again. It's all down to money.
The present regs are so well established that it costs a tremendous amount of money and effort to gain just a tenth or two. With new regs, then research is likely to turn up a massive advantage. instead of, as at present, a second or two convering the grid, we'll go back to six or seven.
But it is a fact of life that change costs and only the rich teams will gain any immediate advantage. The others will have to play catch-up, as they have done for the past couple of seasons, and then, just when they've got a chance of getting out of the midfield, the rules will change again. The only time this didn't happen was in the days of the 3-litre forumla and the wonderful DFV and then, for a team to gain an advantage, it required a revolutionary concept to break the deadlock.
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