Mike Hawthorns`3.4 Jaguar and the accident
Discussion
Gregor Marshall said:
Sorry I couldn't help more.
Dad was a great fan of Mike's, probably about 20 years ago we went down to Marsh Plant in Havant and drove down the A3 and past where the accident happened and Dad told me the whole story and was quite emotional about it, I was very surprised but Dad did always love to know the full details of an accident when it involved people he knew/respected. Wish I had of been a bit older than 10ish at the time and taken in more of what he said, as I'm sure he would have had stuff to add to this, plus he had such a great love of Jaguars.
I can't remember the exact details of which one Dad owned but I assume it must've been the one that was order when Mike died, I'll have to ask Pete Hall as he bought it from Dad for his collection of cars. Dad was always annoyed then when there were pictures of it in books and magazines it would say it was Mike's car with his BRDC badge on it but it was actually Dad's BRDC badge!!
Dad was a great fan of Mike's, probably about 20 years ago we went down to Marsh Plant in Havant and drove down the A3 and past where the accident happened and Dad told me the whole story and was quite emotional about it, I was very surprised but Dad did always love to know the full details of an accident when it involved people he knew/respected. Wish I had of been a bit older than 10ish at the time and taken in more of what he said, as I'm sure he would have had stuff to add to this, plus he had such a great love of Jaguars.
I can't remember the exact details of which one Dad owned but I assume it must've been the one that was order when Mike died, I'll have to ask Pete Hall as he bought it from Dad for his collection of cars. Dad was always annoyed then when there were pictures of it in books and magazines it would say it was Mike's car with his BRDC badge on it but it was actually Dad's BRDC badge!!
Gregor
Can you tell me a bit about your Dad's car please and its history (PM me if you prefer)? I think I know which one you mean but will see what you say.
Tony
The Mike Hawthorn Tribute Site
www.mike-hawthorn.org.uk/
Well it`s been a while since the topic was started,does anybody have any copies of the photo that appeared in the press of Mikes engine bay of VDU?
Incidentally, the Mk1 XOX 8 was tested by Jim Patten and myself back in the late 80s early 90s. This car was owned by the local Farnham Greengrocer, who had bought it on Mikes reccommendation, though he bought it after Mikes` death.Sadly, the car had been in a flood, with water up to the dash and this had eventually rotted out the sills . Still when we tested it , it drove well enough, though it handled like boat. Typically it had worn out rubber as did the car in Peter Halls` Jaguar Motor Museum in Maldon. That too looked good, but drove `orrible.
My replica still sits in the garage at home.It went well enough with it`s low diff, close ratio moss box and sandcast carbs, though I have not used it in several years.Too busy repairing everyone else`s Jaguars
Thanks for the comment Ferg, nice to know I have one friend.
Incidentally, the Mk1 XOX 8 was tested by Jim Patten and myself back in the late 80s early 90s. This car was owned by the local Farnham Greengrocer, who had bought it on Mikes reccommendation, though he bought it after Mikes` death.Sadly, the car had been in a flood, with water up to the dash and this had eventually rotted out the sills . Still when we tested it , it drove well enough, though it handled like boat. Typically it had worn out rubber as did the car in Peter Halls` Jaguar Motor Museum in Maldon. That too looked good, but drove `orrible.
My replica still sits in the garage at home.It went well enough with it`s low diff, close ratio moss box and sandcast carbs, though I have not used it in several years.Too busy repairing everyone else`s Jaguars
Thanks for the comment Ferg, nice to know I have one friend.
Are you sure we are talking about the same car here? When I bought it XOX 8 had had a lower half respray but there was no sign of water damage at all although I wondered why, for such a reputedly low mileage, the car had a new drivers side carpet. Here are three photos of the car, the first showing it as found and dragged out of the garage behind the grocers at Farnham.
After minor fettling (new painted wires since the old ones were very rusty and dangerous), new tyres, a polish and a service the car was as good as gold.
The only other change was to fit a tow bar
If it had been flooded out I'd be interested to hear the history of how and why!
After minor fettling (new painted wires since the old ones were very rusty and dangerous), new tyres, a polish and a service the car was as good as gold.
The only other change was to fit a tow bar
If it had been flooded out I'd be interested to hear the history of how and why!
Hi low drag, From my notes, the greengrocer had 2 sills replaced, doors repaired and the carpets replaced in the 60s after the flood, when genuine stuff was available for the Mk1, from Tourist Trophy Garage.Perhaps an Insurance claim rowed in extra work, justified by the flood.I agree the wires then were bad, but I don`t remember the car being blue.That must be some special T cut you have.If you check in the Jaguar world archive, when owned by PJ publishing, you should find the article.
Hi lowdrag, despite the photos,Its` a great car. This was the saloon that put Jaguar on the map for production saloon racing.So much better than a Mk2 which is a tarts car.
Mk 1s are pure nostalgic grunt but remain unloved by the brain dead media. I hate it when the public refer to it as the Morse car. Oh please!!
The factory 0-60 time for the 3.4 Mk2 was actually slower than the Mk1. Hows` that for progress.
Mk 1s are pure nostalgic grunt but remain unloved by the brain dead media. I hate it when the public refer to it as the Morse car. Oh please!!
The factory 0-60 time for the 3.4 Mk2 was actually slower than the Mk1. Hows` that for progress.
rw774 said:
Hi lowdrag, despite the photos,Its` a great car. This was the saloon that put Jaguar on the map for production saloon racing.So much better than a Mk2 which is a tarts car.
Mk 1s are pure nostalgic grunt but remain unloved by the brain dead media. I hate it when the public refer to it as the Morse car. Oh please!!
The factory 0-60 time for the 3.4 Mk2 was actually slower than the Mk1. Hows` that for progress.
Mk 1s are pure nostalgic grunt but remain unloved by the brain dead media. I hate it when the public refer to it as the Morse car. Oh please!!
The factory 0-60 time for the 3.4 Mk2 was actually slower than the Mk1. Hows` that for progress.
rw, I couldn't agree more about the significant difference between MK1 and MK2 performance.
It wasn't just the outright acceleration of course, it was the handling and the way the MK1 drove; it drove like a proper sports saloon.
The MK2 was so soft, spongy and vague by comparison, and yet they were actually very similar in technical specification.
It just proves how important the small, subtle details are when setting up a car.
Hi Jith, I`m afraid to burst you bubble, but the Mk1 didn`t handle well at all. the steering/suspension set up employed different wishbones and uprights, smaller stub axles and dampers and had the smaller track back axle. But still it was and is a quicker car than the Mk2 and was driven by the world`s top drivers, in competion. A better record than the Mk2 ever had.It should be amongst the C D and E types for putting the factory on the world map and they should be worth alot more than the Mk2 .There are too many sperm donors running the Auction market who know nothing of their subject and I wish they would take the trouble to find out more about the model
rw774 said:
Hi Jith, I`m afraid to burst you bubble, but the Mk1 didn`t handle well at all. the steering/suspension set up employed different wishbones and uprights, smaller stub axles and dampers and had the smaller track back axle. But still it was and is a quicker car than the Mk2 and was driven by the world`s top drivers, in competion. A better record than the Mk2 ever had.It should be amongst the C D and E types for putting the factory on the world map and they should be worth alot more than the Mk2 .There are too many sperm donors running the Auction market who know nothing of their subject and I wish they would take the trouble to find out more about the model
You're right about the auction market of course rw, but I still disagree with you about handling.
Just to put you in the picture I have owned numerous MK1s and MK2s and rebuilt probably as many!
I would agree that the ultimate roadholding of the MK2 was far superior, but the way the MK1 felt on the road, the way it transmitted the road to the driver was in a different class to the MK2.
I also found it very easy to make a MK1 much quicker on the corners simply by the addition of Konis, decent tyres and wires.
The appeal of a MK1 now must be the rarity factor; I mean how often do you see them come up for sale either at auction or privately?
Must get another before the auction boys realise their true value!!!
Hi J
There is a photo of Mckays car, the Australian driver with his Mk1 cornering at speed and there some pretty strange geometry changes occuring.That was a car prepared by the factory!
But still I agree with you. It was always possible to improve as is the case with all production cars.The Mk1 was always a better more rigid shell to start with .I spoke to a guy recently who had owned a Mk1 in the early 1960. It was reputed to have been the replacement for VDU.
The car was originally registered to the factory but had all the right bits as per the works prepared cars.Dampers,thicker roll bar,low diff, webers, bias pedal box, battery in the boot, bucket seats etc etc.Prepared for Mike and then sold on after his death.
There is a photo of Mckays car, the Australian driver with his Mk1 cornering at speed and there some pretty strange geometry changes occuring.That was a car prepared by the factory!
But still I agree with you. It was always possible to improve as is the case with all production cars.The Mk1 was always a better more rigid shell to start with .I spoke to a guy recently who had owned a Mk1 in the early 1960. It was reputed to have been the replacement for VDU.
The car was originally registered to the factory but had all the right bits as per the works prepared cars.Dampers,thicker roll bar,low diff, webers, bias pedal box, battery in the boot, bucket seats etc etc.Prepared for Mike and then sold on after his death.
Hi All, back on the old subject again. I`m chuffed to bits now, After all this time repairing other peoples cars I`ve finally re commissioned my own 3.4 Hawthorn and got it back on the road. as soon as i have found out how to stick pictures on the I`ll do it. Had a really good visit on wednesday from Mikes old apprentice at TT garage.Lovely man. Jarred alot of memories about VDU. My exhaust( mild steel 2" and made by me took forever) he felt sounded just the same as Mikes, which when you are a sad-o like me is quite a compliment.
What a handful though though in the wet. I`m on radials, because i`m no world champion driver and like a bit of grip, but give it a bit more and you have to steer it on the throttle.
What a handful though though in the wet. I`m on radials, because i`m no world champion driver and like a bit of grip, but give it a bit more and you have to steer it on the throttle.
RW774 said:
As soon as i have found out how to stick pictures on, I`ll do it.
Bring it 'round to my house, Paul, I'll snap some and post them up!!PS Your website address in your profile doesn't work, so I've posted it below for anyone who wants to take a look!!
http://www.paulroachjaguar.co.uk/index.html
RW774 said:
What a handful though though in the wet. I`m on radials, because i`m no world champion driver and like a bit of grip, but give it a bit more and you have to steer it on the throttle.
You know, this car was designed when radials didn't exist. I've driven all kinds of Jaguars on radials and cross plies and frankly I can drive older cars better on cross plies. Radials let go suddenly but cross plies slowly and controllably although they do tramline and you hav to watch the steering. If I was going to hill climb my E type again I'd put her back on cross plies because the only time I tried Prescott on radials I very nearly went over the edge at semi circle. At least on cross plies I can feel her moving and use opposite lock to correct which you can't do on radials - either you are on the road or in the weeds. With all the torque I wouldn't even dare to put the D type on radials despite the R5 Dunlops not lasting very long - at least they are safe!lowdrag said:
RW774 said:
What a handful though though in the wet. I`m on radials, because i`m no world champion driver and like a bit of grip, but give it a bit more and you have to steer it on the throttle.
You know, this car was designed when radials didn't exist. I've driven all kinds of Jaguars on radials and cross plies and frankly I can drive older cars better on cross plies. Radials let go suddenly but cross plies slowly and controllably although they do tramline and you have to watch the steering. lowdrag said:
Are you sure we are talking about the same car here? When I bought it XOX 8 had had a lower half respray but there was no sign of water damage at all although I wondered why, for such a reputedly low mileage, the car had a new drivers side carpet. Here are three photos of the car, the first showing it as found and dragged out of the garage behind the grocers at Farnham.
After minor fettling (new painted wires since the old ones were very rusty and dangerous), new tyres, a polish and a service the car was as good as gold.
The only other change was to fit a tow bar
If it had been flooded out I'd be interested to hear the history of how and why!
That really is some find.After minor fettling (new painted wires since the old ones were very rusty and dangerous), new tyres, a polish and a service the car was as good as gold.
The only other change was to fit a tow bar
If it had been flooded out I'd be interested to hear the history of how and why!
Hi Again Low drag/LB. I don`t know if I replied to this topic in the past without reading it again re XOX. The car had new sill and replacement factory carpets fitted by TT garage back in the 60s or70s I can`t remember which. Fantastic car though as is, farnham suffered a servere flood, the car used to live at the back of the green grocers shop( he was then the owner). It was the owner who revealed it had the water damage. Aparently up to the lower half of the doors.
Thanks for the offer Ferg, I will come round. Give us a ring cause I cannot remember where you are
Thanks for the offer Ferg, I will come round. Give us a ring cause I cannot remember where you are
RW774 said:
Hi Low drag, if you checkout Tyre history, Michelin had developed a radial tyre much earlier than you think. Continental followed and Dunlop bought out the Duraband the late 50s.
Yes, I know that Michelin developed the radial tyre much earlier in 1949 but that is not a point in question here. The E type was developed for cross-plies as was the D type before it and the handling was set up for these types of tyres. Your point here is argumentative but without real foundation. I have, for example, the Moss gearbox in my E type now from the Dunlop owned E type that was bought to evaluate and to develop the radial tyre and that car was registered in 1963. I have no gripes with radials - the E type is on Michelins now - but on the track the cross-plies are far more secure in that you can literally drive "by the seat of your pants". The car is far more understandable and controllable; for example, a friend took me up Prescott in his early E type and we opposite locked around semi circle with ease on Dunlop RS5's whereas I lost it big time on radials. You have to have seriously quick reactions to catch an E type on radials - Roger Bell recounts that he couldn't catch mine at MIRA for example on the wet handling track and spun it countless times (EVO 2/99). Radials have no doubt their place - but for quick driving older cars are better on cross-plies on the limit. Most drivers use their cars to "go to the pub on a Sunday" and live their dream but really have no idea, nor inclination, to drive their cars on the limit on a circuit. It is only then that the limitations of the suspension come to the forefront. Grant Williams, "Mr. Sideways" is well known at Goodwood and he's driven my D type there too but I would doubt, and he is of the same opinion, that he could be so entertaining on radials.Hi Low drag.
My arguement is without foundation? are you saying I don`t know what I`m talking about?.
As much as I would like to run them, Dunlop racing tyres used on the road would invalidate my insurance .That might be different for you wealthy ex pats!, we lesser mortals chose not to run that risk.
VDU did not have RS5s by 1959,It did when it left the factory in 57 but was never run on them. Duraband Radials were supplied by the Dunlop with the J factories` blessing.i believe TT garage set the car up to run on these early radials with both castor and camber alterations to suit.I have it on good authority from the Apprentice who visited me last week.He carried out the work with Bill Field and then Mike tested the car.
Prior to this VDU had been fitted with the Dunlop gold seal crossply.
Don`t forget, VDU was only used once on the track at silverstone in 58
( Dunlop Racing )
I`ve set many historic cars up on both types of tyre,all for the road not for the track. This is after all a Mk 1,not a D . If I were to use the car on the track, the car would be set up entirely differently as every other race car is.
I believe if Dunlop had been further forward Radial development , Jaguar would have fitted them to all their production cars.
What type of tyre is used in the XK challenge and who sponsors it?
Low drag, would you be so kind as to email me that shot you have of the factory FHC120s instruments please, thanks
My arguement is without foundation? are you saying I don`t know what I`m talking about?.
As much as I would like to run them, Dunlop racing tyres used on the road would invalidate my insurance .That might be different for you wealthy ex pats!, we lesser mortals chose not to run that risk.
VDU did not have RS5s by 1959,It did when it left the factory in 57 but was never run on them. Duraband Radials were supplied by the Dunlop with the J factories` blessing.i believe TT garage set the car up to run on these early radials with both castor and camber alterations to suit.I have it on good authority from the Apprentice who visited me last week.He carried out the work with Bill Field and then Mike tested the car.
Prior to this VDU had been fitted with the Dunlop gold seal crossply.
Don`t forget, VDU was only used once on the track at silverstone in 58
( Dunlop Racing )
I`ve set many historic cars up on both types of tyre,all for the road not for the track. This is after all a Mk 1,not a D . If I were to use the car on the track, the car would be set up entirely differently as every other race car is.
I believe if Dunlop had been further forward Radial development , Jaguar would have fitted them to all their production cars.
What type of tyre is used in the XK challenge and who sponsors it?
Low drag, would you be so kind as to email me that shot you have of the factory FHC120s instruments please, thanks
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