The McLaren thing just keeps on rolling?

[Kubica]

Most importantly, I wonder what Sniff Petrol will make of this?

[Fidgits]

jacobyte said:

Autosport said:

Asked if justice had been done, the president of the FIA Max Mosley said "Yes".

In fact, have another one, Max

[andyps]

Strangely Brown said:

The FIA have decided that McLaren are guilty of cheating. They are privy to the evidence and we are not, deal with it. The FIA owes you nothing, you no right to know anything whatsoever. If you don't like it go and find another "sport" to watch.

As I said above, the FIA have not proved that McLaren cheated, it would appear that McLaren did not satisfactorily prove (to a biased audience) that they didn't. The FIA have seen the evidence through their own bias, and many of the WMSC would not be objective in this.

As for the FIA owing me nothing, surely as a motorsport fan I should have some rights other than to not watch something I love. There is no other "sport" I want to watch.

[Strangely Brown]

woof said:

The only official press release doesn't mention any cheating - so unfortunately your talking nonsense

Ahhh right... that'd be why they were fined $100m and excluded from the championship then... because they weren't cheating.

Thanks for clearing that up, I understand now.

woof said:

How any F1 one fan can think today is a good day for the sport (??) !!!

I never said it was... I think the decision about the drivers stinks. If the team is guilty then so are they, end of story.

As for F1? ... I really wouldn't miss it if it disappeared off the face of the planet tomorrow. It's not the sport that I used to enjoy watching and hasn't been for a few years now. It was the constant dicking about with the rules and quali format that killed it for me and as for the girly waved blue flags rules... don't get me started...

[Bounty Hunter]

M3ax said:

One thing I've been thinking about is that if the 2008 car is to be "inspected", what is it to be compared against. Surely if FIA think think this is a good idea they should inspect every car and compare them against whatever base they decide in their infinite wisdom is fit. But then of course they would have to ajudicate as to where the technology/design of each car originated and who has the rights to the original IP......

Ok - so some might say that they will be looking for Ferrari IP but if they are really serious shouldn't they be looking for every infringement that fits the precedent they have now set?

(I know, I dont post very often but I'm here in Spirit)

Any how - back to the GP2 on Setanta

Good point.

But why can't they compare whats in the stolen Ferrari dossier to the 2007 Mcl car? That would then prove if its a copy of the Ferrari information?

If Ron is innocent, why did he not prove that no part of his cars were made from the information in the dossier?

Case closed?

BH

[CommanderJameson]

Strangely Brown said:

woof said:

The only official press release doesn't mention any cheating - so unfortunately your talking nonsense

Ahhh right... that'd be why they were fined $100m and excluded from the championship then... because they weren't cheating.

Riddle me this: why weren't the drivers penalised for benefitting from this cheating?

[ali_kat]

Bounty Hunter said:

But why can't they compare whats in the stolen Ferrari dossier to the 2007 Mcl car? That would then prove if its a copy of the Ferrari information?

If Ron is innocent, why did he not prove that no part of his cars were made from the information in the dossier?

Case closed?

BH

Because that would be far too simple and easy!!

[Strangely Brown]

andyps said:

Strangely Brown said:

The FIA have decided that McLaren are guilty of cheating. They are privy to the evidence and we are not, deal with it. The FIA owes you nothing, you no right to know anything whatsoever. If you don't like it go and find another "sport" to watch.

As I said above, the FIA have not proved that McLaren cheated, it would appear that McLaren did not satisfactorily prove (to a biased audience) that they didn't. The FIA have seen the evidence through their own bias, and many of the WMSC would not be objective in this.

Whereas you, on the other hand, are basing your opinions on absolutely zero first hand knowledge whatsoever other than the lynch mob that appears to be the PH General Motorsport forum.

andyps said:

As for the FIA owing me nothing, surely as a motorsport fan I should have some rights other than to not watch something I love.

Exactly how much have you personally contributed to the sport, and I don't mean in monetary terms. for you to be 'owed' anything at all.

andyps said:

There is no other "sport" I want to watch.

I find that really sad. There are many other formulas and classes of motorsport that are far more exciting to watch than the farce that F1 has become.

[NightDriver]

Strangely Brown said:

woof said:

The only official press release doesn't mention any cheating - so unfortunately your talking nonsense

Ahhh right... that'd be why they were fined $100m and excluded from the championship then... because they weren't cheating.

Thanks for clearing that up, I understand now.

WRONG! Mclaren have not been found guilty of cheating. There punishment is for having the ferrari data. There is, and never has been, any proof to show that they used the information. If you read RDs statement it clearly shows Mclaren went to all the lengths they could to prove they did not use the information.

There punishment is for receiving data sent to them by ferrari. That is why the punishment is so draconian and why so many people have completely lost faith in the FIA.

Edited by NightDriver on Thursday 13th September 21:02

[M3ax]

Bounty Hunter said:

M3ax said:

One thing I've been thinking about is that if the 2008 car is to be "inspected", what is it to be compared against. Surely if FIA think think this is a good idea they should inspect every car and compare them against whatever base they decide in their infinite wisdom is fit. But then of course they would have to ajudicate as to where the technology/design of each car originated and who has the rights to the original IP......

Ok - so some might say that they will be looking for Ferrari IP but if they are really serious shouldn't they be looking for every infringement that fits the precedent they have now set?

(I know, I dont post very often but I'm here in Spirit)

Any how - back to the GP2 on Setanta

Good point.

But why can't they compare whats in the stolen Ferrari dossier to the 2007 Mcl car? That would then prove if its a copy of the Ferrari information?

If Ron is innocent, why did he not prove that no part of his cars were made from the information in the dossier?

Case closed?

BH

I agree - compare the 2007 car now. reading between the lines it seems to me that it is more likely the 08 car that will interest them because of development lead times. When was the 07 car designed? probably mid 06 - ok they could have tweeked things since march. But the point is - all should be inspected not just McLaren.

p.s I am a Williams fan so no bias towards McLaren from me. I'm just amazed at the judgement.

[Strangely Brown]

CommanderJameson said:

Strangely Brown said:

woof said:

The only official press release doesn't mention any cheating - so unfortunately your talking nonsense

Ahhh right... that'd be why they were fined $100m and excluded from the championship then... because they weren't cheating.

Riddle me this: why weren't the drivers penalised for benefitting from this cheating?

Because they want Hamilton to win the championship. In case you hadn't noticed how much "luck" has been running his way this year.

As I have said, I think they should have been excluded from the championship too.

[CommanderJameson]

Strangely Brown said:

CommanderJameson said:

Strangely Brown said:

woof said:

The only official press release doesn't mention any cheating - so unfortunately your talking nonsense

Ahhh right... that'd be why they were fined $100m and excluded from the championship then... because they weren't cheating.

Riddle me this: why weren't the drivers penalised for benefitting from this cheating?

Because they want Hamilton to win the championship. In case you hadn't noticed how much "luck" has been running his way this year.

As I have said, I think they should have been excluded from the championship too.

What "luck" is that, then?

[666360]

npope said:

666360 said:

sstein said:

666360 said:

Nitro-besty said:

Should we have a show of hands among the PH collective to see who is in which team's corner?

Ferrari followers, go to the left of the room. (I count about 2 or 3 of us)

Mclaren followers, go the right of the room. (I count....well almost everyone)

Everyone else who doesn't follow Ferrari, go the right of the room as well (I count.....everybody I missed the last time).

It seems that the decision has gone down quite badly amongst most. Mclaren denied any wrong doing (we're whiter than white was essentially what they put across), were found out, and penalised as a result. Were people expecting Mclaren to get off with it? They still have 2 drivers free to win a championship. Had Ferrari been the one's cheating, I'm sure things would be different, and the calls for a driver ban would be quite loud....

Anyway, I'm hoping Kimi can pull his finger out and whoop the two Mclaren / Ferrari hybrids infront of him.

Edited by Nitro-besty on Thursday 13th September 19:54

yep kimi and massa a 1-2 at spa ! in your face ron

I thought Ferrari would have won at Monza Hopefully they can recover at Spa.

-

Stuart

They certainly will and it will be a 1-2

Ferrari all the way

FORZA FERRARI! nice to see some tifosi on this thread at last

[JKDesign80]

Anyone know where the $100m goes?!

[Strangely Brown]

NightDriver said:

Strangely Brown said:

woof said:

The only official press release doesn't mention any cheating - so unfortunately your talking nonsense

Ahhh right... that'd be why they were fined $100m and excluded from the championship then... because they weren't cheating.

Thanks for clearing that up, I understand now.

WRONG! Mclaren have not been found guilty of cheating. There punishment is for having the ferrari data. There is, and never has been, any proof to show that they used the information. If you read RDs statement it clearly shows Mclaren went to all the lengths they could to prove they did not use the information.

There punishment is for receiving data sent to them by ferrari. That is why the punishment is so draconian and why so many people have completely lost faith in the FIA.

AUI, there [sic] punishment is for not being able to prove to the councils satisfaction that they didn't use they data so in effect they HAVE been found guilty of cheating. Anyway, even if they didn't "use" the data why did they try to cover it up? Why didn't Ron just get rid of it instantly and sack anyone who had anything to do with it? Can you guess? hmmm?

Your loyalty to McLaren is admirable but I feel misguided. Ron is not the Mr. Clean that you think he is. He wouldn't be where he is if he was.

[SuperKartRacer]

Dr JonboyG said:

SuperKartRacer said:

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1...

What the racers think :-), few F1 drivers in there too

LOL. What F1 driver posts at 10 tenths? I think you're deluding yourself mate.

Hang about and you'll see :-)

I work with one of em..

What about it anyway??? F3/F3000/rally/Kart/Cart drivers in there too? is it that odd.

Edited by SuperKartRacer on Thursday 13th September 21:16

[NightDriver]

Strangely Brown said:

NightDriver said:

Strangely Brown said:

woof said:

The only official press release doesn't mention any cheating - so unfortunately your talking nonsense

Ahhh right... that'd be why they were fined $100m and excluded from the championship then... because they weren't cheating.

Thanks for clearing that up, I understand now.

WRONG! Mclaren have not been found guilty of cheating. There punishment is for having the ferrari data. There is, and never has been, any proof to show that they used the information. If you read RDs statement it clearly shows Mclaren went to all the lengths they could to prove they did not use the information.

There punishment is for receiving data sent to them by ferrari. That is why the punishment is so draconian and why so many people have completely lost faith in the FIA.

AUI, there [sic] punishment is for not being able to prove to the councils satisfaction that they didn't use they data so in effect they HAVE been found guilty of cheating. Anyway, even if they didn't "use" the data why did they try to cover it up? Why didn't Ron just get rid of it instantly and sack anyone who had anything to do with it? Can you guess? hmmm?

Your loyalty to McLaren is admirable but I feel misguided. Ron is not the Mr. Clean that you think he is. He wouldn't be where he is if he was.

And what kind of court should you have to prove your innocence? You could throw any team in there and tell them to prove they are using no information from any other team and they would be unable to do it. How exactly could Mclaren prove beyond doubt they havent used any of the data? They would have to provide the FIA with every drawing done since the start of 07 for them to examine....This would take a group of engineers months to examine, its simply not viable. Mclaren did however provide statements from ALL their designers saying they havent used any Ferrari designs, you would really hope this could be seen as proof of innocence. Espeicially when apparently this whole thing is about preserving the image of the sport

There was never any cover up... Coughlan was suspended the moment it was found out and has now had his contract with Mclaren terminated, what more could they do???

I do have a large loyalty to Mclaren as a fan, but as a designer myself I find this whole saga very worrying. As I work freelance I have access to many different peices of information at different times, therefore in the eyes of the FIA I could be helping my clients cheat... And if they can have punishments like that shown against them for simply not being able to prove innocence, then I can see people like me standing in line at the job centre in a few months...

[andyps]

Strangely Brown said:

andyps said:

Strangely Brown said:

The FIA have decided that McLaren are guilty of cheating. They are privy to the evidence and we are not, deal with it. The FIA owes you nothing, you no right to know anything whatsoever. If you don't like it go and find another "sport" to watch.

As I said above, the FIA have not proved that McLaren cheated, it would appear that McLaren did not satisfactorily prove (to a biased audience) that they didn't. The FIA have seen the evidence through their own bias, and many of the WMSC would not be objective in this.

Whereas you, on the other hand, are basing your opinions on absolutely zero first hand knowledge whatsoever other than the lynch mob that appears to be the PH General Motorsport forum.

That has to be a supposition as you do not know anything about me. I do not have first hand information, but my views are not based on those of other PHers, but are my own formed over a number of years (and I have been a motorsport fan for a lot of years) and based on things which i have observed, read and considered carefully.

Strangely Brown said:

andyps said:

As for the FIA owing me nothing, surely as a motorsport fan I should have some rights other than to not watch something I love.

Exactly how much have you personally contributed to the sport, and I don't mean in monetary terms. for you to be 'owed' anything at all.

I regularly give time freely to enable motorsport events to function as an official at these events, sanctioned by the MSA, and ultimately run within the confines of the FIA. I think that means something. But regardless of that, would you explain how you think the FIA have no responsibility to those who support and watch motorsport?

Strangely Brown said:

andyps said:

There is no other "sport" I want to watch.

I find that really sad. There are many other formulas and classes of motorsport that are far more exciting to watch than the farce that F1 has become.

Within my comment I meant all motorsport - I do watch, and as mentioned above, actively help in the running of, many other classes. The trouble is that very few of them do not fall under the control of the FIA. And F1 has become a farce, if that is how you like to see it, mainly because of the FIA.

[Teppic]

Autosport.com said:

Q & A with Dennis and Whitmarsh

Q: Do you feel you're the only team in Formula One who deserve to be punished for this sort of incident?

Martin Whitmarsh: "The starting point is, we do not believe that we should have been punished in this way. And I think today we should just concentrate on this situation, not what's happening to other teams."

Q: Do you think FIA president Max Mosley's attitude has changed from the last World Motor Sport Council meeting (in July)?

Ron Dennis: "I have no comment on that."

Q: What was the new evidence submitted in today's hearing?

Dennis: "The evidence today was primarily email traffic between our drivers. And in one instance - Mike Coughlan."

Whitmarsh: "As we've said earlier, these were a few emails, and the drivers have stated categorically that no information was passed to the team."

Dennis: "And of course the team had no knowledge of this email traffic at any stage."

Q: How damaging financially is the punishment to McLaren?

Dennis: "Firstly, effectively, we will still have as an offset the revenue from the points earned to date. That will effectively half the size of the cheque we have to sign, if we ultimately accept this fine.

"But as you can see if you read our accounts, we turn over roughly $450-500 million USD a year, and we are debt-free, so obviously we are a very strong company with phenomenal growth.

"I jokingly asked [Mercedes motorsport director] Norbert [Haug] if he was going to chip in half, but we haven't really come to a conclusion on that negotiation."

Q: And does today's verdict make you consider your own future?

Dennis: "My personal future was never in question as far as I was concerned. I'm very committed to this company, I'm very passionate about motor racing, and I have absolutely no intention of retiring.

"I've made a firm commitment to Martin (Whitmarsh) to succeed me as CEO, and that decision - whenever it's taken - will not have any bearing on today's affair or any other issues this year."

Q: How is this going to affect the future of your drivers?

Dennis: "We have multi-year contracts with both of our drivers, and there has been no discussion about varying them.

"We have two of the best drivers in the world, and our commitment to winning races is undiminished. That's what we exist to do - to win races.

"And if there is any variation to those contracts, it will be by mutual agreements."

Q: Do you have a feeling that the FIA has held double standards in this decision?

Dennis: "I'm not going to make any comment as to the FIA's findings other than the fact that we are firmly of the opinion that we definitely do not concur with their findings.

"But until we have all the details from the FIA, it is impossible for me to have a position on it.

"They've issued [a statement about] the penalties but they haven't issued the actual findings, and it would be wholly inappropriate for me to make any comment until we have those findings."

[stephen300o]

Storm in a teacup, just get on with it, it's only racing.