Has the 911 finally lost its shine???

[Twincam16]

HAB said:

twincam16 said:

However, if they made it mid-engined they could make it lighter overall, as they wouldn't have to take into account counterbalancing measures like weighting in the front bumper or 4WD.

Counterbalancing measures by weighting the front bumper and 4wd?

What are you on about?

Why, exactly, do you think a mid engined 911 would be lighter?

Ever since the '60s Porsche have had to counterbalance the 911's rear-biased weight distribution by making the front bumper heavier. In the early days they even used concrete and lead.

It was all explained in a John Simister article a while back. Basically, weight distribution in cars can be described like a dumbbell. Mid-engined cars have both weights pushed into the middle and are easiest to turn, which is why the majority of sports cars (including, of course, F1 cars and Le Mans prototypes) are all mid-engined. They also don't need any counterweighting, which reduces the need for excess weight. A lack of hardware up front and at the rear also means that aerodynamics can be more creative.

Front-engined rear wheel drive is like your traditional dumbbell with weights at either end (engine at front, differential and sometimes transaxle gearbox at rear). Turns more easily but it's heavier, and the bodywork has to accommodate a great big lump of an engine up front, so frontal drag will be greater.

With FE/FWD and RE/RWD designs, all the weight's at one end. This means excellent traction at one end (sharp cornering on hot hatches, great acceleration off the line in 911s), but too much power and they overwhelm their configurations - FE/FWD understeers.

Simister explained the stability issues of a RE/RWD car thus: try pushing a pencil quickly across a table with your finger on the end. Try keeping it in a straight line. There comes a point where the slightest twitch throws it wildly off-line, and you need mighty driver aids (ie more weight) to keep it tracking straight.

Truth is, you can put more power through a mid-engined chassis. It's why everyone else apart from Porsche has settled on it. Porsches are unique in their configuration, but it doesn't make them superior, otherwise the likes of Skoda, Renault and Fiat would still be making RE/RWD family cars and single-seater racers would be RE/RWD as well.

[Mannginger]

Los Angeles said:

Porsche has decades of development history, improving the 911 incrementally.

No other company can boast that much historical attention to the search for engineering perfection.

The next 911, for example, will have LED lights competitive with the Audie R8, as well as getting the car bang-up-to-date. Another advantage is class, or better stated, aesthetic taste. The shape is a clasic, wonderfully simple, not easy to screw up, why alter it radically? There are any number of supercars on the market that bit faster than the 911, beautiful they ain't. Next comes cost. Porsche is still managing to keep its main 911 derivatives cheaper than the competition, and it's a 2 plus 2 with genuine luggage capacity. Then you have to take into account the number of dealers available and back-up for spares.

But above all, there is reliability and every day use.

If Porsche are troubled by the public's current perception it's a dilution of 911 graphics, its face grafted onto all their cars and SUVs, none with the same successful harmony.

Personally, I think they made an error of judgement, (hubris?) attempting to get every model recognised immediately by the man in the street; a few elements yes, a badge, headlights, perhaps, but not each as close as possible to the main elements of the 911.

[Off topic]

I was recently wondering where you were LA, somehow I've managed to miss your contributions recently and wondered if you'd gone into retirement! Kept meaning to check your profile but kept forgetting - doh!

Anyway - welcome "back", good to see you're still with us!



Phil

[/off topic]

[Streetrod]

stuttgartmetal said:

Trommel said:

stuttgartmetal said:

Cayman eh ?

Fine until you pull up next to a 911 at the traffic lights.

Thats some crazy sh*t right there.

I'm not sure I follow- are you suggesting you have a 911 because you think it impresses people?

Actually, weren't you were the one who seemed to think a 911 would help you get laid? Posting pictures of 911s and girls in bikinis?

I'll go through it slowly.
If you're in a Cayman, and pull up at the lights next to a 911, you feel a bit self conscious.

Oh, and yes it does help you get laid.
No doubt about it.

Ask any 911 owner what its like to drive one.
The gash love it.

HTH

Edited by stuttgartmetal on Wednesday 24th September 16:02

On a lighter note, the majority of my female friends think that 911 drivers are "knobs" it’s the whole wide boy city thing they don’t like. This is not my opinion by the way before you all get wound up.
As one very gorgeous friend said to me when I was considering one, and I quote " 911 ownership shows a lack of imagination"
And before you all think she must be some kind fo dog please find attached a picture of said lady

[ASBO]

Thudd said:

1) It's Manthey Racing, not Matheny Racing you plank, Asbo.

FFS, I'm posting on my phone. It was a typographical error.

I know full well who/what they are and how the name is spelt, I've had lunch with one of their drivers.

[stuttgartmetal]

Streetrod said:

She's telling you this, so you don't feel intimidated by not having one.
We discussed it recently during a post coital cigarette.

Lovely girl, but one has to move on, doncha know.

[Thudd]

ASBO said:

Thudd said:

1) It's Manthey Racing, not Matheny Racing you plank, Asbo.

FFS, I'm posting on my phone. It was a typographical error.

I know full well who/what they are and how the name is spelt, I've had lunch with one of their drivers.

So am I and you did it twice.

[Streetrod]

stuttgartmetal said:

Streetrod said:

She's telling you this, so you don't feel intimidated by not having one.
We discussed it recently during a post coital cigarette.

Lovely girl, but one has to move on, doncha know.

Very funny, I went for the R8 anyway so no issues there then.
One of her recent boy friends owned a Ferrari 430 and a Callaway Corvette, she preferred the Corvette as she said the 430 was too "typical"

[sleep envy]

Streetrod said:

On a lighter note, the majority of my female friends think that 911 drivers are "knobs" it’s the whole wide boy city thing they don’t like. This is not my opinion by the way before you all get wound up.
As one very gorgeous friend said to me when I was considering one, and I quote " 911 ownership shows a lack of imagination"
And before you all think she must be some kind fo dog please find attached a picture of said lady

I'd find new friends TBH - anyone who is willing to judge someone they don't know based on a purschase isn't worth knowing and rather vain IMO

[funkyol]

stuttgartmetal said:

If you're in a Cayman, and pull up at the lights next to a 911, you feel a bit self conscious.

Really? Why?

[Streetrod]

sleep envy said:

Streetrod said:

On a lighter note, the majority of my female friends think that 911 drivers are "knobs" it’s the whole wide boy city thing they don’t like. This is not my opinion by the way before you all get wound up.
As one very gorgeous friend said to me when I was considering one, and I quote " 911 ownership shows a lack of imagination"
And before you all think she must be some kind fo dog please find attached a picture of said lady



I'd find new friends TBH - anyone who is willing to judge someone they don't know based on a purschase isn't worth knowing and rather vain IMO

You are right, she is very vain but funny at the same time, and again you should not judge, but you know how some people are, everyone makes judgements on first sight, we all do it to a certain extent, but lets not get off topic here. I am sorry if I have lead the topic astray.

[Streetrod]

Here's another question for you, with Porsche now having a controling interest in VAG and therfore Audi and Lamborgini, with the likes of the R8 given them a hard time in these shootouts are they likely to try and surpress the R8's development in the future so cutting down on internal competition?

[Streetrod]

Los Angeles said:

Streetrod said:

Here's another question for you, with Porsche now having a controling interest in VAG and therfore Audi and Lamborgini, are they likely to try and surpress the R8's development in the future so cutting down on internal competition?

Not if it sells well. No point in cutting off their nose to spite their profits level now they control the VW empire.

The R8 has still to prove it longevity and reliability - and in the same form, essentially in the same design. High fuel consumption might be a stumbling block to sustained popularity.

Clumsy tapering rear aside, it certainly looks contemporary, but not classically so.

The thing is the head of Porsche recently said in an interview with I think it was "Car" magazine that internal competition was not a good thing as the market for cars in this sector is not growing very quickly. Therefore the cost of developing models that are competing for the same market share did not make for a good business model.
And as for the R8's looks, only time will tell if they become classic and I would like to think that Audi build quality should cover your other points.

[SpydieNut]

sleep envy said:

Streetrod said:

I'd find new friends TBH - anyone who is willing to judge someone they don't know based on a purschase isn't worth knowing and rather vain IMO

true, but can we have more pics of this one please.

[DucatiGary]

ASBO said:

I know how the name is spelt, I've had lunch with one of their drivers.

out of interest, do their drivers sit you down and make you do lines spelling the manthey name correct?

just wondering, like

[blueyes]

funkyol said:

stuttgartmetal said:

If you're in a Cayman, and pull up at the lights next to a 911, you feel a bit self conscious.

Really? Why?

I'm not sure either, I never have.

Maybe it's because the 911 costs more than a Cayman so the 911 driver must be richer than me?

If that's so, do 997 drivers feel self conscious when they pull up next to a 997S, and they, in turn, feel the same, when they are next to a Turbo...

Pretty sad really.



Personally, whatever the model, old or new, front/mid/rear engine, I just think "Yay! Another Porsche!"

Isn't that how it should be?

[sleep envy]

blueyes said:

Isn't that how it should be?

yep, but is seems everyone on PH gets given a packet of McCains when they sign up these days

[shoestring7]

Trommel said:

Fruitcake said:

They did. It's called a 911. A rear mounted engine is in 'the right place' for a 911 because it's a rear engined car.

Want mid engined? Buy a Cayman.

It's only in the right place if you had to base your sports car on a VW Beetle in 1948. It's also the reason the Cayman handles better. Time to move on.

I though Porsche designed the Beetle in 1938?

SS7

[shoestring7]

HAB said:

Trommel said:

Are you really suggesting that outside the wheelbase is the best place for an engine?

The success of the 911 vs its competitors both on and off the track, surely answers your question. All engine configurations are compromised in some way.

Rear engined offers some unique advantages. Especially if your making a 2+2 sports car, and want to go racing with it.

Traction, weight distribution under braking, luggage space, to name a couple.

Edited by HAB on Wednesday 24th September 15:40

Interior packaging, braking is 50/50 f/r, its easier to manage heat away from the interior, compact drive train packaging helps to keep the weight down, steering geo isn't compromise by having to life a big weight up and down, its easier to develop front crumple zones and Pedpro...

SS7

[Schermerhorn]

Trommel said:

Fruitcake said:

They did. It's called a 911. A rear mounted engine is in 'the right place' for a 911 because it's a rear engined car.

Want mid engined? Buy a Cayman.

It's only in the right place if you had to base your sports car on a VW Beetle in 1948. It's also the reason the Cayman handles better. Time to move on.

It works, it handles very well. Ever heard the expression 'if it isn't broke, don't fix it?'.

Did you watch Fifth Gear last Monday (15th September)? They compared a 1997 R-reg 996 Carrera 2 (base 3.2 300bhp model) with a 2008 Boxster S with with 308bhp. The 10 year old 911 won by 0.3 seconds. There's nothing wrong with having the engine in the back, Porsche have demonstrated that it works excellent and handle isn't compromised. Why all the archaic criticism? It's 2008, not 1978 when 911's DID handle unpredictably. Move on Jezza.

PS: It's not a Beetle either. I wish people would move away from that argument because it's erm....40+ years old now.

[HAB]

Twincam16 said:

HAB said:

twincam16 said:

However, if they made it mid-engined they could make it lighter overall, as they wouldn't have to take into account counterbalancing measures like weighting in the front bumper or 4WD.

Counterbalancing measures by weighting the front bumper and 4wd?

What are you on about?

Why, exactly, do you think a mid engined 911 would be lighter?

Ever since the '60s Porsche have had to counterbalance the 911's rear-biased weight distribution by making the front bumper heavier. In the early days they even used concrete and lead... yadda yadda yadda

You talk utter rubbish - you just can't help yourself. Shame as you were almost making sense up to this point. This ones nearly up there with cadence clutching.

Very early cars (1964) had cast iron (NOT LEAD OR CONCRETE!) weights in the outer corners of the front bumpers. This was an iterim measure until Porsche repostioned twin batteries as far toward the corners of the front of the car as possible.


The top flight motoring journo strikes again!