Sold my car, engine died the following day...want money back
Discussion
Hi everyone,
I write this with an unfortunate sad face.
I owned a Ford Focus 1.6, that sold on ebay on Monday evening. This is the actual advert;
Buyer came round on Tuesday evening to collect. She and her husband turned up, I introduced her to the car and said ok, would you like to go for a test drive, check it over, spend some time with it? No no, she said, and simply said to let's exchange the cash, sort the V5 and go on her way.
So, we exchange everything and I ask her to sign the following sellers receipt, which I download from the AA website. She signs 100% correctly - I have an original, as does she;
I explained both on the phone, in the ad, and at the time of sale that the car had a bottom end rebuild around 3 months ago (by a friend of mine who used to work for Ford), and that since then it's done perhaps 20miles as it's been sat on my drive - having travelled a fair bit with work etc, I hadn't had opportunity to sell but had bought new car - all explained.
So, they drive off and all is well.
I got a call from them tonight, saying that the engine was making some funny noises so they asked their mechanic friend to take a look and he says the bottom end has gone and that it's managed to mess up cylinder 2 having pushed pistons into valves. Forget the mechanical side of it for a moment - it puzzles me how they've managed to do that.
Anyhow, so I said I'd ring my mechanic friend and see if he remembers anything of note. Nothing at all, he said it ran absolutely fine after he fixed it and took it for test drive. So I phoned the purchasers of my car, and explained as such. They wanted me to pay half for a new engine (£1000 / 2 = £500). I said I wasn't able to, and without being calous - it's caveat emptor and I offered test drives and inspections etc. I'm very sorry, and offered £150 as a goodwill gesture; purely because I felt so exceptionally guilty and they were a nice family that bought it. I genuinely feel so very bad about this, but that doesn't help the situation much; feeling bad.
They said they'd think about it - they went away and did - and so then I receive a text exclaiming that I have "commited a criminal offence under section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, that states no person shall sell a vehicle deemed unroadworthy unless you can prove that you had cause to believe they would not be using it on the road". And, there on asking for their money back. Small claims court was mentioned in one phone conversation.
So, I am confident of my (unfortunate) position; especially considering the receipt that I have, but I wanted to run it by you all knowledgeable people, not least to perhaps make me try and feel a bit better.
Sorry for such a long post, but I wanted to be clear on everything - but I wonder if you could all let me know that my position is as safe as I believe, and that, while unfortunate, I can at least get to sleep?
Thanks very much for reading
Tony
I write this with an unfortunate sad face.
I owned a Ford Focus 1.6, that sold on ebay on Monday evening. This is the actual advert;
Buyer came round on Tuesday evening to collect. She and her husband turned up, I introduced her to the car and said ok, would you like to go for a test drive, check it over, spend some time with it? No no, she said, and simply said to let's exchange the cash, sort the V5 and go on her way.
So, we exchange everything and I ask her to sign the following sellers receipt, which I download from the AA website. She signs 100% correctly - I have an original, as does she;
AA Contract said:
Seller's Contract
For private sales
If you're selling a used car, print two copies out and complete them in front of the buyer. Each party should sign and keep a copy of this document as proof of sale.
Car Details
Make
........................................................................................................
Model
........................................................................................................
Registration Number
........................................................................................................
Mileage
........................................................................................................
Registration Document completed by buyer/seller Yes/No
Registration Document (V5) exchanged Yes/No
Additional Notes/Comments
........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................
The undersigned purchaser acknowledges receipt of the above vehicle in exchange for the cash sum of £.......... being the price agreed by the purchaser with the vendor for the above named vehicle, receipt of which the vendor hereby acknowledges. It is understood the vehicle is sold as seen, tried and approved by the purchaser without any representations, warranties or conditions express or implied whatsoever.
Purchaser
........................................................................................................
Vendor
........................................................................................................
Date
........................................................................................................
.For private sales
If you're selling a used car, print two copies out and complete them in front of the buyer. Each party should sign and keep a copy of this document as proof of sale.
Car Details
Make
........................................................................................................
Model
........................................................................................................
Registration Number
........................................................................................................
Mileage
........................................................................................................
Registration Document completed by buyer/seller Yes/No
Registration Document (V5) exchanged Yes/No
Additional Notes/Comments
........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................
The undersigned purchaser acknowledges receipt of the above vehicle in exchange for the cash sum of £.......... being the price agreed by the purchaser with the vendor for the above named vehicle, receipt of which the vendor hereby acknowledges. It is understood the vehicle is sold as seen, tried and approved by the purchaser without any representations, warranties or conditions express or implied whatsoever.
Purchaser
........................................................................................................
Vendor
........................................................................................................
Date
........................................................................................................
I explained both on the phone, in the ad, and at the time of sale that the car had a bottom end rebuild around 3 months ago (by a friend of mine who used to work for Ford), and that since then it's done perhaps 20miles as it's been sat on my drive - having travelled a fair bit with work etc, I hadn't had opportunity to sell but had bought new car - all explained.
So, they drive off and all is well.
I got a call from them tonight, saying that the engine was making some funny noises so they asked their mechanic friend to take a look and he says the bottom end has gone and that it's managed to mess up cylinder 2 having pushed pistons into valves. Forget the mechanical side of it for a moment - it puzzles me how they've managed to do that.
Anyhow, so I said I'd ring my mechanic friend and see if he remembers anything of note. Nothing at all, he said it ran absolutely fine after he fixed it and took it for test drive. So I phoned the purchasers of my car, and explained as such. They wanted me to pay half for a new engine (£1000 / 2 = £500). I said I wasn't able to, and without being calous - it's caveat emptor and I offered test drives and inspections etc. I'm very sorry, and offered £150 as a goodwill gesture; purely because I felt so exceptionally guilty and they were a nice family that bought it. I genuinely feel so very bad about this, but that doesn't help the situation much; feeling bad.
They said they'd think about it - they went away and did - and so then I receive a text exclaiming that I have "commited a criminal offence under section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, that states no person shall sell a vehicle deemed unroadworthy unless you can prove that you had cause to believe they would not be using it on the road". And, there on asking for their money back. Small claims court was mentioned in one phone conversation.
So, I am confident of my (unfortunate) position; especially considering the receipt that I have, but I wanted to run it by you all knowledgeable people, not least to perhaps make me try and feel a bit better.
Sorry for such a long post, but I wanted to be clear on everything - but I wonder if you could all let me know that my position is as safe as I believe, and that, while unfortunate, I can at least get to sleep?
Thanks very much for reading
Tony
Unroadworthy refers to safety I believe. This isnt dangerous, its simply faulty. If you knew there was a serious shortcoming and you lied when asked directly, or made statement to the contrary then youd have misrepresented the car and youd have a fight on your hands; as it is I think that they were unlucky.
Its only my opinion but I wouldnt have thought you had much to worry about. The only two things that may be of concern is that you offered £150 and that could be seen as some sort of admission and that in the ad you say the engine bottom end was rebuilt and will last for a long time (or similar, bit hard to read it)
Bad luck 
However I think you are in a safe position. A similar(ish) thread was running yesterday on the VX220 forum; see here: http://www.vx220.org.uk/forums/I-ve-Sold-My-Vx-Now...
This is a page containing official advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/con...
As above, unroadworthy is different to broken down after 20 miles as well...
However I think you are in a safe position. A similar(ish) thread was running yesterday on the VX220 forum; see here: http://www.vx220.org.uk/forums/I-ve-Sold-My-Vx-Now...
This is a page containing official advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/con...
As above, unroadworthy is different to broken down after 20 miles as well...
changingman said:
Its only my opinion but I wouldnt have thought you had much to worry about. The only two things that may be of concern is that you offered £150 and that could be seen as some sort of admission and that in the ad you say the engine bottom end was rebuilt and will last for a long time (or similar, bit hard to read it)
Yup I thought about that bit (you're correct in your assumption - seems the print came out small, I've copied and pasted the exact ad below). Anyhow, I did consider that - though it is merely opinion, not fact, and I would assume it is fact that is specific to "mis-selling", not opinion? (eg; car has done 100k miles when it's done 200k, or similar?)The advert in text (easier to read)
ebay ad said:
199 (S) Ford Focus, 1.6 Litre
For sale is my manual silver Focus hatchback with air conditioning. 114,500 miles, MOT until June 2010, taxed until September 2009.
It is now, of course, an 11yr old car with 100k+ miles and so the condition is as you would expect for such an age. I have done my very best to represent it 100% accurately within the pictures and this description, so therefore please do remember this is an auction to BUY, not just to view the car. I would welcome anybody to come and view - I live near J4 of the M2 in North Kent - if you wish to come and see it before placing your bid, please do get in contact!
You can see there are some scratches (notably the rear bumper), driver's door (picture number 10) is marked with rust in the bottom left, and I have taken a picture of each of the 4 wheels so you may see their condition also. If you would like more pictures of any part of the car in particular, don't hesitate to ask, I'll happily take some for you!
The engine has recently had a bottom end rebuild and service - there are limited but consistent service documents from me and previous owners - and therefore will last for a long while yet. It can fluctuate at idle sometimes, but this is minute and does not cause it to stall.
Tyres are near-new at the front (2k miles old) and medium at the rear. Front pads and discs were replaced June last year, and whole exhaust system was replaced from manifold to rear silencer in June 2007.
The interior is, of course, that of a 115k mile car however it has never been smoked in - as such there are no burns or cigarette smell, and it is clean and tidy as you can see from the photgraphs.
I stress, I've described it as accurately as I am able, but should you have any further questions then please do get in contact if you wish, or - more importantly - if you would like to come and view the car at any time between now and the auction ending. You are bidding to BUY, so please bare in mind! Car is to be collected by the winner from North Kent.
Thanks very much
For sale is my manual silver Focus hatchback with air conditioning. 114,500 miles, MOT until June 2010, taxed until September 2009.
It is now, of course, an 11yr old car with 100k+ miles and so the condition is as you would expect for such an age. I have done my very best to represent it 100% accurately within the pictures and this description, so therefore please do remember this is an auction to BUY, not just to view the car. I would welcome anybody to come and view - I live near J4 of the M2 in North Kent - if you wish to come and see it before placing your bid, please do get in contact!
You can see there are some scratches (notably the rear bumper), driver's door (picture number 10) is marked with rust in the bottom left, and I have taken a picture of each of the 4 wheels so you may see their condition also. If you would like more pictures of any part of the car in particular, don't hesitate to ask, I'll happily take some for you!
The engine has recently had a bottom end rebuild and service - there are limited but consistent service documents from me and previous owners - and therefore will last for a long while yet. It can fluctuate at idle sometimes, but this is minute and does not cause it to stall.
Tyres are near-new at the front (2k miles old) and medium at the rear. Front pads and discs were replaced June last year, and whole exhaust system was replaced from manifold to rear silencer in June 2007.
The interior is, of course, that of a 115k mile car however it has never been smoked in - as such there are no burns or cigarette smell, and it is clean and tidy as you can see from the photgraphs.
I stress, I've described it as accurately as I am able, but should you have any further questions then please do get in contact if you wish, or - more importantly - if you would like to come and view the car at any time between now and the auction ending. You are bidding to BUY, so please bare in mind! Car is to be collected by the winner from North Kent.
Thanks very much
changingman said:
The only two things that may be of concern is that you offered £150 and that could be seen as some sort of admission
I did stress that was as a gesture of goodwill (for that exact reason), though it was simply a phone call and not by e-mail. If I were to pay it, I would have sent is as a cheque and an appropriately accompanying letter.Thanks for the input
ad551 said:
Bad luck
However I think you are in a safe position. A similar(ish) thread was running yesterday on the VX220 forum; see here: http://www.vx220.org.uk/forums/I-ve-Sold-My-Vx-Now...
This is a page containing official advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/con...
As above, unroadworthy is different to broken down after 20 miles as well...
Good points, and thank you very much for the link - I'll get onto those right away.However I think you are in a safe position. A similar(ish) thread was running yesterday on the VX220 forum; see here: http://www.vx220.org.uk/forums/I-ve-Sold-My-Vx-Now...
This is a page containing official advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/con...
As above, unroadworthy is different to broken down after 20 miles as well...
Kinky said:
I might be totally wrong here - but I thought s.75 related to motor traders and such like - ie: those that are expert and qualified to know that a car is roadworthy or not. Joe public would not be expected to know.
K
According to the CAB link posted above (a very interesting one), I can still be held liable for unroadworthyness. However, as also mentioned - is a broken engine unroadworthy? I'd have thought something ILLEGAL would deem it such - low tyres, for example?K
It was perfectly roadworthy when you sold it. Later it went faulty. Being faulty doesn't mean it isn't roadworthy, it simply means its faulty.
Its their tough luck really, you offered test drives and they refused. It isn't as though it failed 100 yards down the road, it failed several days later in their care.
Their threats are bluff and bluster, re-offer the £150 and make sure they know if they continue to issue baseless threats then they won't even get that.
Its their tough luck really, you offered test drives and they refused. It isn't as though it failed 100 yards down the road, it failed several days later in their care.
Their threats are bluff and bluster, re-offer the £150 and make sure they know if they continue to issue baseless threats then they won't even get that.
but I'm amazed they bought in after reading your ad - you gave them plenty of clues!
Parrot of Doom said:
It was perfectly roadworthy when you sold it. Later it went faulty. Being faulty doesn't mean it isn't roadworthy, it simply means its faulty.
Its their tough luck really, you offered test drives and they refused. It isn't as though it failed 100 yards down the road, it failed several days later in their care.
Their threats are bluff and bluster, re-offer the £150 and make sure they know if they continue to issue baseless threats then they won't even get that.
Absolutely correct.Its their tough luck really, you offered test drives and they refused. It isn't as though it failed 100 yards down the road, it failed several days later in their care.
Their threats are bluff and bluster, re-offer the £150 and make sure they know if they continue to issue baseless threats then they won't even get that.
It is unfortunate for them, but it is their loss not yours. You offered a test drive which they refused, and then signed a document saying it was accepted.
It is their car and you owe them nothing. I wouldn't even offer them the £150 to be frank.
The car had done over 100k and it is common knowledge that buying such a car on private sale carries a risk. That was a risk they accepted in turn for a huge reduction on the new price!
If you feel guilty, look at it this way:
The car purchase ended up being less than their estimation of the value of the deal, so they feel sore about it.
Lets say the car was fine, and you gave them a ring 5 years later and they have had 100,000 miles of perfect motoring at a very small cost - a lot better than they expected.
Would or could you ask them for an extra £500 as it was better than expected? And would they hand it over!?
Of course not. But that is exactly what they are asking you to do when the shoe is on the other foot.
Cool, thanks everyone. Grateful of the "second" opinion - wanted to be sure it wasn't me being ignorant, or indeed wreckless in any way.
What should my next course of action be - a texted reply (if so, what?), or perhaps a letter establishing my position?
To be honest, I'd still be happy to offer the £150 still if not for it to just go away as much as feeling so bad about it - as I say, they seemed a nice family.
What are you thoughts chaps?
Once again thanks, you've helped a lot.
What should my next course of action be - a texted reply (if so, what?), or perhaps a letter establishing my position?
To be honest, I'd still be happy to offer the £150 still if not for it to just go away as much as feeling so bad about it - as I say, they seemed a nice family.
What are you thoughts chaps?
Once again thanks, you've helped a lot.
t happens Crap situation to be in! I think I'd probably take the same approach as you have already Tony, offering a small token gesture towards payment. But, I'd be getting it checked over before handing them a penny. Without knowing who your mate is or what it is he did for ford and whether he's worth his salt, I'd certainly be wondering why a freshly rebuilt engine went bang. Not saying he's to blame of course, but without looking, and with it having done so few miles since it certainly makes me wonder.
To what degree, and why was it rebuilt before? If you trust his work and it doesn't appear to be a fault caused by oversight, maybe it's worth asking him [your mate] if there's any way he could rebuild it again for mates rates for the family, I know if an engine I'd build popped I'd be more than a little curious to see what went wrong and why, so I'm sure he's just as curious, and of course it removes any possibility of them trying to pull a fast one. Of course, if they're genuine it also means you look like you're proactively trying to help get it sorted for them as a concerned seller, but I'd be cautious of them trying to pin any blame on you.
While it's very easy, (and I'm 99% sure you're within your rights to do), it's far too easy for them to bang in a moneyclaim case or small claims case, and while most folk here would trust you and believe you're a nice honest chap, it might get awkward.
To what degree, and why was it rebuilt before? If you trust his work and it doesn't appear to be a fault caused by oversight, maybe it's worth asking him [your mate] if there's any way he could rebuild it again for mates rates for the family, I know if an engine I'd build popped I'd be more than a little curious to see what went wrong and why, so I'm sure he's just as curious, and of course it removes any possibility of them trying to pull a fast one. Of course, if they're genuine it also means you look like you're proactively trying to help get it sorted for them as a concerned seller, but I'd be cautious of them trying to pin any blame on you.
While it's very easy, (and I'm 99% sure you're within your rights to do), it's far too easy for them to bang in a moneyclaim case or small claims case, and while most folk here would trust you and believe you're a nice honest chap, it might get awkward.
Edited by Stu R on Friday 14th August 02:15
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