eBay, should I worry?
Discussion
Listed a car on eBay, got a phone call Saturday and we agree a price (£1,000) on the car and for him to put down a deposit - £40 via eBay/PayPal, and that he'll be down on on Sunday to collect. Guy then says he doesn't have the cash but will get in on Monday (today).
Anyways, in the mean time (Sunday) I had an offer of £1,500 so naturally, I sold it as the guy had cash, unlike the guy coming who I figured might try to knock the price down further, seeing as I can't find the V5 or MOT. A bird in the hand they say.
I know it's a bit of a
ish thing to do, but it was £500 
I'd had his deposit for less than 24 hours. So I refunded him his deposit and send an email apologizing and saying I've lost the paperwork and the car is no longer for sale. I also pull the eBay car auction and attempt to complete a 'Cancelled Transaction' dispute on eBay, which he refuses. Then he goes off on one claiming contract law and that he's going to sue me. Should I be worried?
He's acting like a right muppet, he hasn't even seen this car, has no idea of my address (although could probably get from eBay). You'd think a reasonable person would just move on? I'll post emails from now:
Buyer:
i ve seen your requests to cancel and the reason given,well,i am dissapointed,my daughter more so. i ll approach this from 2 directions.first, its not a problem insofar as i will honour my part of the contract by completing without the V5, i expect to collect and pay the balance tomorrow as we had talked of arranging. from the other point of approach, so far as i m concerned, we agreed a deal[contract]and i laid deposit[S] which bind us into the next part of that contract, if for no genuine reason that cannot be completed, then 2 aspects emerge,1] fraud, since all that has been done was by mutual agreement and i have paid money in good faith and am denied the goods contracted for.2] the civil breach of contract, whereby the seller is liable for any extra the buyer has to pay to replace the goods by buying elsewhere along with costs, expenses and fees, my position is this, i will not accept anything other than completion of the contract,and will invoke the above if i have to[regretably]
Me:
Ron, like I said I don't have the paperwork for the car, hence have had to cancel the auction. I do apologise but I have refunded you while I arrange for a logbook and MOT etc.
Buyer:
a deal is a deal , it was fair and agreed, i will collect tomorrow as promised. ron.
Me:
I understand your disappointment at not being able to complete the sale and I have apologized.
However, I have refunded your deposit, and as you did not win the original eBay auction, I do not consider myself bound to any contract, if this is incorrect, please kindly forward me a copy for my consideration.
It is unfortunate you cannot accept the situation and move, as a reasonable person would, instead making quasi-legal threats about statutes you clearly have little understanding of.
I am no longer selling the car for the reasons stated previously. That is the end of the matter.
Buyer:
thankyou for the reply, i m not worried about the paperwork, i ll get a new V5 and mot certificate, i will collecy and pay the balance, i was arranging that for tody, and still will do that.
Me:
As previous, car is no longer for sale.
Buyer:
there is no need for apology regarding the sale itself.i did not agree to and do not accept a refund at all and because it cannot possibly reach its source,nor can i access it. we actually entered into a contract outside the auction.you nand i are bound by that contract,as for copies, you only need read the emails, the A3 deposit offers,and the deposit{S}since they form, offer,honour and acceptance, all that is remaining is final payment and transfer. which address will i send copies of pertinent papers to? i accept the situation that we are bound in contract,you for spurious reasoning seek to breach that,indeed any reasonable person would complete the transaction,as the reason given is de minimus.i am not making quasi legal threats, i am informing you that you have acted inadvisably,and are intimating breach of contract,and i will not tolerate that. i intend to issue in absence of completion in County Court.what name and address would you prefer for service,also choose the court.
Buyer:
i neglected to address your comment of my understanding of what you refer to as quasi legal, i was actually refering to law concerning contracts, specifically offer,honour,consideration and exchange/completion, since you seek it seems to direct my understanding, i suggest that you, contact your lawyer, and without omission describe accurately the wWHOLE situation, and take WRITTEN advice, to test that,it would also be adviseable to ask the lawyer if he/she would conduct a defence on a no win no fee basis, that will give you some idea of the strength of your defence. also, that you have sent money to my paypal account without my knowledge and without my agreement, is of no value to you.
Buyer:
The contract is binding, if you fail to perform, or sell elsewhere[as is likely what you intend for an increased price] you are liable for any losses,costs and extra amount which i have to pay for a similar car, so, it not worth taking more when it will cost far more than such an uplift in the future.
Should I pack my toothbrush?
Anyways, in the mean time (Sunday) I had an offer of £1,500 so naturally, I sold it as the guy had cash, unlike the guy coming who I figured might try to knock the price down further, seeing as I can't find the V5 or MOT. A bird in the hand they say.
I know it's a bit of a
ish thing to do, but it was £500 I'd had his deposit for less than 24 hours. So I refunded him his deposit and send an email apologizing and saying I've lost the paperwork and the car is no longer for sale. I also pull the eBay car auction and attempt to complete a 'Cancelled Transaction' dispute on eBay, which he refuses. Then he goes off on one claiming contract law and that he's going to sue me. Should I be worried?He's acting like a right muppet, he hasn't even seen this car, has no idea of my address (although could probably get from eBay). You'd think a reasonable person would just move on? I'll post emails from now:
Buyer:
i ve seen your requests to cancel and the reason given,well,i am dissapointed,my daughter more so. i ll approach this from 2 directions.first, its not a problem insofar as i will honour my part of the contract by completing without the V5, i expect to collect and pay the balance tomorrow as we had talked of arranging. from the other point of approach, so far as i m concerned, we agreed a deal[contract]and i laid deposit[S] which bind us into the next part of that contract, if for no genuine reason that cannot be completed, then 2 aspects emerge,1] fraud, since all that has been done was by mutual agreement and i have paid money in good faith and am denied the goods contracted for.2] the civil breach of contract, whereby the seller is liable for any extra the buyer has to pay to replace the goods by buying elsewhere along with costs, expenses and fees, my position is this, i will not accept anything other than completion of the contract,and will invoke the above if i have to[regretably]
Me:
Ron, like I said I don't have the paperwork for the car, hence have had to cancel the auction. I do apologise but I have refunded you while I arrange for a logbook and MOT etc.
Buyer:
a deal is a deal , it was fair and agreed, i will collect tomorrow as promised. ron.
Me:
I understand your disappointment at not being able to complete the sale and I have apologized.
However, I have refunded your deposit, and as you did not win the original eBay auction, I do not consider myself bound to any contract, if this is incorrect, please kindly forward me a copy for my consideration.
It is unfortunate you cannot accept the situation and move, as a reasonable person would, instead making quasi-legal threats about statutes you clearly have little understanding of.
I am no longer selling the car for the reasons stated previously. That is the end of the matter.
Buyer:
thankyou for the reply, i m not worried about the paperwork, i ll get a new V5 and mot certificate, i will collecy and pay the balance, i was arranging that for tody, and still will do that.
Me:
As previous, car is no longer for sale.
Buyer:
there is no need for apology regarding the sale itself.i did not agree to and do not accept a refund at all and because it cannot possibly reach its source,nor can i access it. we actually entered into a contract outside the auction.you nand i are bound by that contract,as for copies, you only need read the emails, the A3 deposit offers,and the deposit{S}since they form, offer,honour and acceptance, all that is remaining is final payment and transfer. which address will i send copies of pertinent papers to? i accept the situation that we are bound in contract,you for spurious reasoning seek to breach that,indeed any reasonable person would complete the transaction,as the reason given is de minimus.i am not making quasi legal threats, i am informing you that you have acted inadvisably,and are intimating breach of contract,and i will not tolerate that. i intend to issue in absence of completion in County Court.what name and address would you prefer for service,also choose the court.
Buyer:
i neglected to address your comment of my understanding of what you refer to as quasi legal, i was actually refering to law concerning contracts, specifically offer,honour,consideration and exchange/completion, since you seek it seems to direct my understanding, i suggest that you, contact your lawyer, and without omission describe accurately the wWHOLE situation, and take WRITTEN advice, to test that,it would also be adviseable to ask the lawyer if he/she would conduct a defence on a no win no fee basis, that will give you some idea of the strength of your defence. also, that you have sent money to my paypal account without my knowledge and without my agreement, is of no value to you.
Buyer:
The contract is binding, if you fail to perform, or sell elsewhere[as is likely what you intend for an increased price] you are liable for any losses,costs and extra amount which i have to pay for a similar car, so, it not worth taking more when it will cost far more than such an uplift in the future.
Should I pack my toothbrush?
A lawsuit will go nowhere. Do not reply further to any contact as it's just going to aggravate you and him.
You shouldn't have lied to the bloke and tried to wriggle out of the sale on a technicality. You should have just told him the truth. At this point he would have understood that the car was unavailable and that further contact would have been pointless. Leaving him to think that you still have the car and that you just won't sell it to him was bound to wind him up.
Honesty is the best policy. In future, don't be a pussy.
You shouldn't have lied to the bloke and tried to wriggle out of the sale on a technicality. You should have just told him the truth. At this point he would have understood that the car was unavailable and that further contact would have been pointless. Leaving him to think that you still have the car and that you just won't sell it to him was bound to wind him up.
Honesty is the best policy. In future, don't be a pussy.
I'm wondering where the popcorn smily is as this thread might have some legs (though naturally I hope that the situation is quickly resolved in an amicable fashion).
I'd be tempted to tell him to jog on and give him his money back (as you've done), but given that you accepted the £50 as a deposit I'm not sure it's entirely clear cut. But I'm not a lawyer so I'll wait for someone who is.
I'd be tempted to tell him to jog on and give him his money back (as you've done), but given that you accepted the £50 as a deposit I'm not sure it's entirely clear cut. But I'm not a lawyer so I'll wait for someone who is.
Of course if you hadn't agreed the sale, taken a deposit then changed your mind, none of this would be happening
I sold a car recently via ebay, autotrader etc...
Had about 4 people interested in it, all promising that they all wanted it and would be round to collect at the wekeend. Strangely, none of them would actually leave a deposit
So it was first come first served and the rest could get lost.
Thing is, if any of them had actually left a deposit, I'd have contacted the rest to tell them not to bother.
But then they were all paying the same amount... being offered 50% more might have bent my standard somewhat
I sold a car recently via ebay, autotrader etc...
Had about 4 people interested in it, all promising that they all wanted it and would be round to collect at the wekeend. Strangely, none of them would actually leave a deposit
So it was first come first served and the rest could get lost.
Thing is, if any of them had actually left a deposit, I'd have contacted the rest to tell them not to bother.
But then they were all paying the same amount... being offered 50% more might have bent my standard somewhat
1) Sale agreed outside eBay ... contrary to eBay Ts&Cs.
2) Nevertheless, a contract is formed between the seller and the original buyer, to complete in the future.
3) In the meantime, the OP sells to a second buyer.
4) The OP then lies to both the original buyer and eBay.
5) The original buyer wants to complete on contract as agreed.
6) The seller comes on here, advertising his lies, worried that his false dealing will land him in trouble, and requesting counsel.
7) Most posters side with the user of terminological inexactitudes.
Streaky
2) Nevertheless, a contract is formed between the seller and the original buyer, to complete in the future.
3) In the meantime, the OP sells to a second buyer.
4) The OP then lies to both the original buyer and eBay.
5) The original buyer wants to complete on contract as agreed.
6) The seller comes on here, advertising his lies, worried that his false dealing will land him in trouble, and requesting counsel.
7) Most posters side with the user of terminological inexactitudes.
Streaky
"Listed a car on eBay, got a phone call Saturday and we agree a price (£1,000) on the car and for him to put down a deposit - £40 via eBay/PayPal, and that he'll be down on on Sunday to collect. Guy then says he doesn't have the cash but will get in on Monday (today).
I also pull the eBay car auction and attempt to complete a 'Cancelled Transaction' dispute on eBay, which he refuses."
I'm confused - was this sold via ebay? or outside of ebay but using PayPal as a mechanism for the deposit?
I also pull the eBay car auction and attempt to complete a 'Cancelled Transaction' dispute on eBay, which he refuses."
I'm confused - was this sold via ebay? or outside of ebay but using PayPal as a mechanism for the deposit?
Sold outside of eBay, eBay/PP used for deposit only. I stopped the auction for the car before it completed.
There were two £20 auctions for the deposit (he wanted it that way to pay by vouchers or something) which he paid via PP and I refunded the same way.
There were two £20 auctions for the deposit (he wanted it that way to pay by vouchers or something) which he paid via PP and I refunded the same way.
Edited by Xeno on Monday 6th September 12:35
Xeno said:
Sold outside of eBay, eBay/PP used for deposit only.
Hmm - then ebay won't be interested. Paypal protection will have given him assurance of the deposit. Ebay won't provide your details as there was no transaction with them.I don't understand why you can't just terminate the auction - talk to ebay directly and they may refund your fees ("may" as it's at their discretion). As a standard private payment via Paypal I'm pretty sure he can't recover your address for a civil action reason so other than the electoral roll and telephone directory he can't get your address.
Has he got a case - again, isn't a County Court filing about recovering actual loss and money owed - not enforcing a contract? In this case, I can't see the loss that he would be filing for?
Cyberprog said:
He broke the original terms of the contract by not turning up on sunday with the cash - end of
Depends if the bloke said it was fine to pop round on Monday.I cant see why someone would arrange cash and pop round on Monday if the OP had said that wasnt an option.
Boot on other foot, poster on here 'buys' a car on ebay then the seller changes their mind and goes for a higher offer?
I am sure people would be screaming blue murder.
Yeah its more cash, but a deals a deal in my book.
In a nutshell:
You wanted to be bound by a contract and not messed around, which is why you asked for the deposit which I am sure you would have kept if he had defaulted.
Then, you pocketed £500 more and lied to him about the car throwing him off the scent that you had sold it for more.
You sold your honour for £500. Don't complain when you get shafted by someone like you.
From a legal perspective, yes, he does have a legitimate claim in contract law. It is pretty simple stuff legally, and he wouldn't need a solicitor to start a claim either. How much he would get is up to the court to decide. Will he do that? Who knows, but IMHO you deserve it.
A solution?
You behaved dishonourably and you have the chance to put things right. You could offer him £200 for his inconvenience and by way of an apology. He will feel vindicated, you won't get any more hassle, and you will *still* have pocketed £300 more though your dishonesty. Fair?
You wanted to be bound by a contract and not messed around, which is why you asked for the deposit which I am sure you would have kept if he had defaulted.
Then, you pocketed £500 more and lied to him about the car throwing him off the scent that you had sold it for more.
You sold your honour for £500. Don't complain when you get shafted by someone like you.
From a legal perspective, yes, he does have a legitimate claim in contract law. It is pretty simple stuff legally, and he wouldn't need a solicitor to start a claim either. How much he would get is up to the court to decide. Will he do that? Who knows, but IMHO you deserve it.
A solution?
You behaved dishonourably and you have the chance to put things right. You could offer him £200 for his inconvenience and by way of an apology. He will feel vindicated, you won't get any more hassle, and you will *still* have pocketed £300 more though your dishonesty. Fair?
If he had been the winning bidder than yes that would be a binding contract, as it is he tried to negotiate a deal outside of eBay which means as far as they're concerned they won't be interested (they take a dim view of sales conducted offline for obvious reasons - they don't get their cut).
It's a bit of a stty thing to do to accept a deposit and renege on it but I don't think he has a leg to stand on legally.
Did anyone actually win the auction or was it cancelled before it completed or didn't reach reserve?
It's a bit of a s
tty thing to do to accept a deposit and renege on it but I don't think he has a leg to stand on legally.Did anyone actually win the auction or was it cancelled before it completed or didn't reach reserve?
Durzel said:
If he had been the winning bidder than yes that would be a binding contract, as it is he tried to negotiate a deal outside of eBay which means as far as they're concerned they won't be interested (they take a dim view of sales conducted offline for obvious reasons - they don't get their cut).
It's a bit of a stty thing to do to accept a deposit and renege on it but I don't think he has a leg to stand on legally.
Did anyone actually win the auction or was it cancelled before it completed or didn't reach reserve?
If the contract is not through eBay then it is outside.It's a bit of a s
tty thing to do to accept a deposit and renege on it but I don't think he has a leg to stand on legally.Did anyone actually win the auction or was it cancelled before it completed or didn't reach reserve?
Millions of binding contracts are formed throughout the UK every day without the help of eBay, and they are still just as binding.
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