Won't turn over
Discussion
Well I have encountered my first problem on my 2nd day of ownership! 
Went out and had a once over of the car, everything was fine and had a look at what bits and bobs might need doing over winter. Anyway I started it up and she fired up fine, had another poke around with the engine running then turned the engine off and when about packing the car for the trip up to my parents today.
I also squirted some penetrating oil on the key and worked it into the door locks and ignition as they were tight. (have a feeling this may have been a bad idea!)
Having loaded the car up and ready to go let the fuel pump prime then started the engine but all I got was a click. I tried starting it with jump leads but that does nothing either, just the same click.
Any ideas as to what's broke?
The yellow connector isn't there any more and it had a new starter motor in the last 2 years. The earth can't have corroded in the space of 10 minutes (could it!?) so I'm stuck for ideas.
Help!
ETA I went out to have another look. It's definitely something electrical as the full beam come on when the side lights and main beams should be on. The main beams come on when the full beams should come on. The front right indicator isn't doing anything and the right rear indicator is flashing about 2-3 times faster than it should.
Rear lights/fogs are fine as are the left indicators. I'm no electrician so this is about the worse thing that could have gone wrong!
Went out and had a once over of the car, everything was fine and had a look at what bits and bobs might need doing over winter. Anyway I started it up and she fired up fine, had another poke around with the engine running then turned the engine off and when about packing the car for the trip up to my parents today.
I also squirted some penetrating oil on the key and worked it into the door locks and ignition as they were tight. (have a feeling this may have been a bad idea!)
Having loaded the car up and ready to go let the fuel pump prime then started the engine but all I got was a click. I tried starting it with jump leads but that does nothing either, just the same click.
Any ideas as to what's broke?
The yellow connector isn't there any more and it had a new starter motor in the last 2 years. The earth can't have corroded in the space of 10 minutes (could it!?) so I'm stuck for ideas.
Help!
ETA I went out to have another look. It's definitely something electrical as the full beam come on when the side lights and main beams should be on. The main beams come on when the full beams should come on. The front right indicator isn't doing anything and the right rear indicator is flashing about 2-3 times faster than it should.
Rear lights/fogs are fine as are the left indicators. I'm no electrician so this is about the worse thing that could have gone wrong!
Edited by orange_dodo on Saturday 15th August 14:03
spivvy said:
i would check the rear light clusters as shorts in these can cause all sorts of problems ,the reason i suggest here is you say you packed the car , also check the solenoid connector on the starter motor to make sure it hasn't worked loose
Thanks hadn't thought of that. Just had a quick look and there is no obvious sign of damage or shorting. The only wires I can see go into a little black connector which plugs into the plastic bulb holder thing. Had a fiddle, disconnected and reconnected them but it still doesn't seem happy. Thinking I may have to get the car up on jacks and have a look at the starter/solenoid.Also spotted that the speedo reading started increasing up to about 10mph after I tried to start the engine. damn electricity.
Edited by orange_dodo on Saturday 15th August 15:13
I assume this is the S2 on your profile, so the battery will be under the bonnet.
Do you have an alarm? If so, minor electrical problems might have upset it so look for flashing lights etc and try arming/disarming to see if that clears it.
Also see whether you get an response at all from the starter when you turn the key. If you hear a slight click, or notice the interior lights dim slightly, that shows there's power getting as far as the solenoid so the problem will be relatively simple:
Battery flat or not providing enough current
Wiring to the solenoid broken, loose or corroded
Solenoid sticking or failed
There's a well known 'hot start' problem that can affect cars intermittently and tends to be worst when the engine bay is hot. Often it goes away when things have cooled down. In the meantime you may find that if you hold the key in the 'starting' position sometimes the solenoid will eventually operate after 30 seconds or so, especially if somebody taps the body of the starter motor to encourage it (broom handle works best - avoid using anything metal to avoid the risk of electrical shorts). If this is the problem then it could be caused by a failing starter motor, or poor wiring to the solenoid, or a weak battery, or usually a combination of all three. So, improving any of these could be enough to make the problem go away.
Do you have an alarm? If so, minor electrical problems might have upset it so look for flashing lights etc and try arming/disarming to see if that clears it.
Also see whether you get an response at all from the starter when you turn the key. If you hear a slight click, or notice the interior lights dim slightly, that shows there's power getting as far as the solenoid so the problem will be relatively simple:
Battery flat or not providing enough current
Wiring to the solenoid broken, loose or corroded
Solenoid sticking or failed
There's a well known 'hot start' problem that can affect cars intermittently and tends to be worst when the engine bay is hot. Often it goes away when things have cooled down. In the meantime you may find that if you hold the key in the 'starting' position sometimes the solenoid will eventually operate after 30 seconds or so, especially if somebody taps the body of the starter motor to encourage it (broom handle works best - avoid using anything metal to avoid the risk of electrical shorts). If this is the problem then it could be caused by a failing starter motor, or poor wiring to the solenoid, or a weak battery, or usually a combination of all three. So, improving any of these could be enough to make the problem go away.
Right so I took off and cleaned up all the rear light cluster connectors as well as taking apart the earth in/near the front near side wheel arch. only problem now is there isn't even a click when I turn the key now 
If eliminated the battery as I tried starting hooked up to my volvo which didn't help, can't be the rear light clusters or n/s wheel arch earth so unless there is another earth in the engine bay (haven't cleaned the battery-chassis earth which needs doing) or one of the earths in a less obvious place i'm thinking its a problem with the starter. As it was making the 'click' noise before I am going to assume the solenoid was doing its thing and the probelem is with the starter motor itself.
I'm going to have to take the Volvo to my parents and put up with the "I told you TVRs break down all the time" for the rest of the weekend! Think my next course of action is to get the car up on stands and test the electrics across the solenoid and starter to see if its electrical or the actual motor but i need more than muggins here and my 18 month old isn't helpful with these kind of things!
GreenV8S - cheers for all those suggestions. The alarm has been disconnected as it use to go off all the time so I have ruled that out, and it is an S2 (well S1.5 at least). I did notice the volts dropping rapidly when I tried to start it earlier when it was clicking which made me think flat battery so I assume the motor is drawing current but not doing anything with it.
I also tried the method Steve Heath mentions about rocking the car in second to try and unstick the solenoid but that didn't seem to do anything.
Barkychoc - Yeah I was wondering that myself. I'll send the previous owner a text and see what the motor actually was.
Thanks for your help everyone, good to know there is somewhere to comeif when it all goes wrong!
Tom
If eliminated the battery as I tried starting hooked up to my volvo which didn't help, can't be the rear light clusters or n/s wheel arch earth so unless there is another earth in the engine bay (haven't cleaned the battery-chassis earth which needs doing) or one of the earths in a less obvious place i'm thinking its a problem with the starter. As it was making the 'click' noise before I am going to assume the solenoid was doing its thing and the probelem is with the starter motor itself.
I'm going to have to take the Volvo to my parents and put up with the "I told you TVRs break down all the time" for the rest of the weekend! Think my next course of action is to get the car up on stands and test the electrics across the solenoid and starter to see if its electrical or the actual motor but i need more than muggins here and my 18 month old isn't helpful with these kind of things!
GreenV8S - cheers for all those suggestions. The alarm has been disconnected as it use to go off all the time so I have ruled that out, and it is an S2 (well S1.5 at least). I did notice the volts dropping rapidly when I tried to start it earlier when it was clicking which made me think flat battery so I assume the motor is drawing current but not doing anything with it.
I also tried the method Steve Heath mentions about rocking the car in second to try and unstick the solenoid but that didn't seem to do anything.
Barkychoc - Yeah I was wondering that myself. I'll send the previous owner a text and see what the motor actually was.
Thanks for your help everyone, good to know there is somewhere to come
Tom
orange_dodo said:
Well as i'm trying to do this without spending too much money and to educate myself about car maintenance I think I'll have a grovel myself. Need to get myself a multimeter though...
In the meantime get an old bulb holder with the wires still connected and a 12v Lamp in the holder, I agree that a multimeter is a very valuable addition to a toolbox, but remeber you dont have to look directly at a lamp to know its on, comes in handy sometimes when fault finding in confined spaces. Something like this, genuine Sykes-Pickavant no less, All of 50p at car boot recently
good luck with solving problem, may be worth trying to take a feed from battery straight to the starter solenoid (small connection). that will by-pass any issues with dreaded yellow connector or ignition switch etc. If still clicks could be jammed, then try actually taking out and putting back in (not too difficult if you can get underneath). presuming plenty of life in battery after all this and still no go my next step, personally, would be to get starter checked out, there are places that will do this, we use one here in the Midlands called Walsall Battery.
I reckon an awfull lot of perfectly good starters and alternators get exchanged when the problem is wiring or bad connections etc. and as I think Barkychoc said some "re-cons" from less reputable agents are little more than scrapyard units with a lick of paint !
good luck with solving problem, may be worth trying to take a feed from battery straight to the starter solenoid (small connection). that will by-pass any issues with dreaded yellow connector or ignition switch etc. If still clicks could be jammed, then try actually taking out and putting back in (not too difficult if you can get underneath). presuming plenty of life in battery after all this and still no go my next step, personally, would be to get starter checked out, there are places that will do this, we use one here in the Midlands called Walsall Battery.
I reckon an awfull lot of perfectly good starters and alternators get exchanged when the problem is wiring or bad connections etc. and as I think Barkychoc said some "re-cons" from less reputable agents are little more than scrapyard units with a lick of paint !
Right well I thought i'd go mechanical on this problem so I got the starter and solenoid out. That top nut is a bugger to get to but I remembered why I got the car as I really enjoyed groveling around under it!
After I had cleaned the earth yesterday I tried starting it and didn't even get the click of the solenoid activating which was depressing. However having just taken the solenoid off as I undid the little yellow solenoid activating wire the wire just fell out the bottom of the car so I now have to figure out what that plugs into although I have a good idea as I found another unconnected wire at the upper end of the engine.
As to the motor itself, I can just about turn the cog clockwise (looking into the cog from the engine side of things) but it won't turn anti clockwise at all. As I see it the cog is turning against the clutch but the motor itself is jammed although I am new to this so may have got it all wrong. I'm taking the motor to work tomorrow and have a friendly word with the electrical guys in the office and see if they can test it on their kit.
I'll also get a multimeter (or one of those screwdrivers!) and test the chunky wire going into the starter. Hopefully its just a jammed motor which I can (or get someone else to) fix.
Cheers all,
Tom
ETA clarenceboddiger - that is on my to-buy list of useful gadgets. Think a trip to Maplins is in order.
After I had cleaned the earth yesterday I tried starting it and didn't even get the click of the solenoid activating which was depressing. However having just taken the solenoid off as I undid the little yellow solenoid activating wire the wire just fell out the bottom of the car so I now have to figure out what that plugs into although I have a good idea as I found another unconnected wire at the upper end of the engine.
As to the motor itself, I can just about turn the cog clockwise (looking into the cog from the engine side of things) but it won't turn anti clockwise at all. As I see it the cog is turning against the clutch but the motor itself is jammed although I am new to this so may have got it all wrong. I'm taking the motor to work tomorrow and have a friendly word with the electrical guys in the office and see if they can test it on their kit.
I'll also get a multimeter (or one of those screwdrivers!) and test the chunky wire going into the starter. Hopefully its just a jammed motor which I can (or get someone else to) fix.
Cheers all,
Tom
ETA clarenceboddiger - that is on my to-buy list of useful gadgets. Think a trip to Maplins is in order.
Edited by orange_dodo on Sunday 16th August 19:49
Well after getting the motor to turn over out of the car I put it back in the car and it started fine. When I tried to start it up again I had the same problem and only the solenoid would activate. So its out again and this time I've dismantled it. The motor is in very good shape, everything is nice and shiny and there is plenty of brush left. the rear bearing is nice and lubricated and turns freely so I think the problem is in the solenoid or clutch/planetary gear mechanism. I can't get the damn thing apart though. I think some grease in the mechanism is the only thing I can do at this point unless anyone else has any ideas.
brushes
armature in good nick
the planetary gear and clutch which I can't get apart
I figured out the electrical problems I was having was me being a numpty although the indicators are twice as fast on the right compared to the left so I may need a new flasher thingy.
brushes
armature in good nick
the planetary gear and clutch which I can't get apart
I figured out the electrical problems I was having was me being a numpty although the indicators are twice as fast on the right compared to the left so I may need a new flasher thingy.
Another source of electrical problems is the connectors to the front lights which are round the bonnet hinges and get well splattered by everything - more so on the S2 which I think doesn't have the inside wheel arches on the bonnet as per S3 where you can get them tie wrappoed out of the way to some extent - so always a good thing to have a look there and ensure everything is OK. I replaced all the connectors on my S3 with the single bullet ones and then gave them a good spray with grease to seal them; the wires were a bit corroded to the old connectors and most will be like that by now unless you are lucky so a poor connection is always possible there. That may not help your starting issues (which do sound starter motor related - can you get it reconned locally to where you are?) but may help re the indicators. Maybe the local TVRCC RO or whoever can help re a reliable and reasonably priced recon place near you.
Jim
Jim
Well I was a muppet and hadn't noticed the front indicator had gone as well as a headlight so once they are sorted I will review the electrical situation.
On the starter front, the car started first time when I replaced the motor but yet again got the solenoid only activating on the second try. Third try nothing happened, didn't even get the gauges to power on so I disconnected and reconnected the battery and tried again and it started, then click, then nothing. Disconnect and reconnect and it starts again....Something odd going on here but at least I can start the damn thing! I also noticed the connectors on the wire for the solenoid and motor were pretty corroded (and loose) so another trip to maplins for replacements.
Trust one small coil of wire to cause all these problems!
Getting hold of the RO is a good idea, i'll pop something up on the TVRCC forum and see what I get. I couldn't get the solenoid apart and I broke a screwdriver bit trying to get one of the screws out so I think I need a professional!
ETA clarenceboddiger - That lamp with croc clips on I made up is brilliant! Thanks for the tip, it saved a lot of time and groveling.
Also the indicators and headlights are now fixed after cleaning the connectors under the bonnet. I think some new connectors will be required fairly soon as they were disgusting! Good call Jimed (and Phillpot)
On the starter front, the car started first time when I replaced the motor but yet again got the solenoid only activating on the second try. Third try nothing happened, didn't even get the gauges to power on so I disconnected and reconnected the battery and tried again and it started, then click, then nothing. Disconnect and reconnect and it starts again....Something odd going on here but at least I can start the damn thing! I also noticed the connectors on the wire for the solenoid and motor were pretty corroded (and loose) so another trip to maplins for replacements.
Trust one small coil of wire to cause all these problems!
Getting hold of the RO is a good idea, i'll pop something up on the TVRCC forum and see what I get. I couldn't get the solenoid apart and I broke a screwdriver bit trying to get one of the screws out so I think I need a professional!
ETA clarenceboddiger - That lamp with croc clips on I made up is brilliant! Thanks for the tip, it saved a lot of time and groveling.
Also the indicators and headlights are now fixed after cleaning the connectors under the bonnet. I think some new connectors will be required fairly soon as they were disgusting! Good call Jimed (and Phillpot)
Edited by orange_dodo on Tuesday 18th August 20:33
Edited by orange_dodo on Tuesday 18th August 22:31
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