Front suspension
Discussion
I`ve just been checking over my 3R and the near side aluminium block that connects the top ball joint to the suspension upright appears to be cracked. Now I recall seeing an earlier thread (which I can`t now find) where this problem was highlighted and there were some photos of the blocks in two pieces - but as I recall these were `early` designs with a small tapped hole through them at right angles to the ball joint axis. (I presume for a set screw to lock the ball joint to the block to prevent it unscrewing). Mine do not have such a threaded hole and so would seem to be later parts,(?)and I`m not sure what stops the ball joint backing out of the block. Has anyone else had an issue with these parts cracking? The car is 2004 with less than 20K miles.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
There we are my friend its towards the bottom of the first page
There we are my friend its towards the bottom of the first page
BobE said:
I`ve just been checking over my 3R and the near side aluminium block that connects the top ball joint to the suspension upright appears to be cracked. Now I recall seeing an earlier thread (which I can`t now find) where this problem was highlighted and there were some photos of the blocks in two pieces - but as I recall these were `early` designs with a small tapped hole through them at right angles to the ball joint axis. (I presume for a set screw to lock the ball joint to the block to prevent it unscrewing). Mine do not have such a threaded hole and so would seem to be later parts,(?)and I`m not sure what stops the ball joint backing out of the block. Has anyone else had an issue with these parts cracking? The car is 2004 with less than 20K miles.
Had these done 18 months ago, £70 for the pair plus 2 hours labour...Adrian W said:
Known fault and supposed to be inspected at service (safety bullitin) and if cracked and part replaced free of charge, Noble know all about this.
Where is the safety bulletin? - I asked about this on my M400 and was politely informed this was not the case and had to pay (parts and labour) for the replacement of 2 cracked blocks.Thanks for the help and answers guys. It really makes you wonder....What happens to all those cars that are serviced outside of the dealer network - I`ve got copies of the service sheets and this doesn`t seem to be covered other than a `check for damage` note. Mine was hard to spot/not at all obvious and I only found it by really looking for the fault and removing road grime etc. (I looked previously and didn`t see anything). If the crack can start on the side against the upright then it wouldn`t be seen at all - although I guess this is unlikely. I presume this is a fatigue failure caused by cyclic loading from cornering and braking creating a `hoop` stress on the part. If it`s a known fault it begs the question why there wasn`t a formal DTP recall as it has to be safety issue.
Are replacement parts the same material etc - or has there been a change to steel etc?
Anyway I`ll get some new parts - if anyone hasn`t checked their car closely for this fault recently go and do it before you drive it again!
I`ve found torque values for the socket headed screws that hold the block to the upright and the ball joint to wishbone - but what about the ball joint to the block? It looks like some form of `C` spanner or a drift is required to tighten the part?
Are replacement parts the same material etc - or has there been a change to steel etc?
Anyway I`ll get some new parts - if anyone hasn`t checked their car closely for this fault recently go and do it before you drive it again!
I`ve found torque values for the socket headed screws that hold the block to the upright and the ball joint to wishbone - but what about the ball joint to the block? It looks like some form of `C` spanner or a drift is required to tighten the part?
I`ve now replaced the cracked part myself - I`ve attached some photos showing how to do it for any one who wants to change theirs. I`ve also found out a little more about the blocks. Now there are two sizes of front upper ball joint - one has a 42mm thread and one a 35mm thread - or there abouts, so you need to be sure which yours is before ordering a replacement part. Mine was a 42mm design and I`m now guessing that both types have similar outside profiles so the larger ball joint results in less material around the thread and hence it`s more likely to fail...I think the rears are less likely to crack as the aluminium blocks are supported to some extent by the brackets that hold the handbrake cables. Anyway having ordered the correct new part I then found out that the design has been changed slightly - to give more material around the critical area... Also the socket head cap screws have also changed from `externaly visible` 80mm bolts to recessed 70mm bolts - so you need to order these as well.
So having got your new parts ready jack up the car and remove the road wheel.
Here you can see the block that needs to replaced and the visible heads of the retaining bolts.
You then need to remove the cap that protects the ball joint `nylok` retaining nut.
This plastic cap is a tight interference fit in the upper wishbone so start to prise it out with a chisel.
You can then use a large screw driver to `jack it out`.
Underneath is the top ball joint nut which you then need to loosen - 22mm AF socket is required. (I believe the smaller design ball joint may use a smaller nut).
You then need to `break` the top ball joint which is a taper fit into the wishbone. I used a two leg puller - load it up via the T bar and then give it a sharp tap with a hammer to shock the joint apart. I did this with the nut still on the ball joint so when it comes apart you can control what happens to the upright and in particular you don`t stretch the flexible brake hose.
You can then undo the two block mounting bolts - an 8mm AF `key` is required.
You now have the sub-assembly removed. At this stage you can either remove the existing ball joint and re-torque it into the new block or fit a new joint as you`ve got everything apart. To remove the ball joint takes some `brutal` force using a hammer and cold chisel and a large pair of stilsons. You are likely to find it has corroded to the block due to a galvanic action between steel and aluminium.
Anyway if you reuse the old part - as I did - make sure you clean up any damage inflicted by the removal process and wire brush the threads to remove any corrosion deposits. I then also filed a flat onto the ball joint flange where it extends beyond the block and interferes with the upright. I`m not sure if this is a design problem or it`s intended to be like that but if you don`t do this it digs into the upright and might start that cracking too....Note that the ball joint goes into the recessed/counter-bored side of the block.
You can re-assemble everything - using Loctite 243 on the cap screws and torque them to 60Nm. Use the same torque for the ball joint nut. (Ideally you should replace this nut once it`s been undone but I re-used mine as they can take a few dis-assemblies before the effectiveness of the locking patch is lost). You can now see the new block in place with no bolt heads visible.
Relace the road wheel and you are done!
Here are pictures of my replaced block...
I should point out that the highly visible crack wasn`t like that when the part was on the car - the dis-assembly process caused it to open up. On the car it was the slightest hairline crack and only really visible when the block was cleaned with wire wool to remove road grime. Don`t just look for a major crack - take a very close look...
I then sectioned the block to look at the crack surface. From looking at this you can see that it isn`t really a classical fatigue crack. The part has cracked from the inside out starting at the top and there are corrosion deposits on the fracture surfaces which are very `brittle` in appearance. I`m begining to wonder if the cracks are caused by galvanic corrosion between the two dis-similar metals which then `bursts` the aluminium block apart. Anyway keep an eye on your parts!
So having got your new parts ready jack up the car and remove the road wheel.
Here you can see the block that needs to replaced and the visible heads of the retaining bolts.
You then need to remove the cap that protects the ball joint `nylok` retaining nut.
This plastic cap is a tight interference fit in the upper wishbone so start to prise it out with a chisel.
You can then use a large screw driver to `jack it out`.
Underneath is the top ball joint nut which you then need to loosen - 22mm AF socket is required. (I believe the smaller design ball joint may use a smaller nut).
You then need to `break` the top ball joint which is a taper fit into the wishbone. I used a two leg puller - load it up via the T bar and then give it a sharp tap with a hammer to shock the joint apart. I did this with the nut still on the ball joint so when it comes apart you can control what happens to the upright and in particular you don`t stretch the flexible brake hose.
You can then undo the two block mounting bolts - an 8mm AF `key` is required.
You now have the sub-assembly removed. At this stage you can either remove the existing ball joint and re-torque it into the new block or fit a new joint as you`ve got everything apart. To remove the ball joint takes some `brutal` force using a hammer and cold chisel and a large pair of stilsons. You are likely to find it has corroded to the block due to a galvanic action between steel and aluminium.
Anyway if you reuse the old part - as I did - make sure you clean up any damage inflicted by the removal process and wire brush the threads to remove any corrosion deposits. I then also filed a flat onto the ball joint flange where it extends beyond the block and interferes with the upright. I`m not sure if this is a design problem or it`s intended to be like that but if you don`t do this it digs into the upright and might start that cracking too....Note that the ball joint goes into the recessed/counter-bored side of the block.
You can re-assemble everything - using Loctite 243 on the cap screws and torque them to 60Nm. Use the same torque for the ball joint nut. (Ideally you should replace this nut once it`s been undone but I re-used mine as they can take a few dis-assemblies before the effectiveness of the locking patch is lost). You can now see the new block in place with no bolt heads visible.
Relace the road wheel and you are done!
Here are pictures of my replaced block...
I should point out that the highly visible crack wasn`t like that when the part was on the car - the dis-assembly process caused it to open up. On the car it was the slightest hairline crack and only really visible when the block was cleaned with wire wool to remove road grime. Don`t just look for a major crack - take a very close look...
I then sectioned the block to look at the crack surface. From looking at this you can see that it isn`t really a classical fatigue crack. The part has cracked from the inside out starting at the top and there are corrosion deposits on the fracture surfaces which are very `brittle` in appearance. I`m begining to wonder if the cracks are caused by galvanic corrosion between the two dis-similar metals which then `bursts` the aluminium block apart. Anyway keep an eye on your parts!
In answer to the question I talked to the factory etc and no you have to pay which really isn`t right in my opinion. (I`m not sure what the vehicle inspectorate would make of it - especially as Noble are still in existance in the UK). The block plus postage was £62.45 and the two new bolts £7.02 including postage - so it`s nearly £70 to make the repair (with your time free of course). When you`ve got everything together it takes about 30 minutes to do the job - plus how ever long it takes to remove the old ball joint which in my case was about the same again with a lot of swearing....
BobE said:
In answer to the question I talked to the factory etc and no you have to pay which really isn`t right in my opinion. (I`m not sure what the vehicle inspectorate would make of it - especially as Noble are still in existance in the UK). The block plus postage was £62.45 and the two new bolts £7.02 including postage - so it`s nearly £70 to make the repair (with your time free of course). When you`ve got everything together it takes about 30 minutes to do the job - plus how ever long it takes to remove the old ball joint which in my case was about the same again with a lot of swearing....
hmmmm the known fault is a crack across the grub screw on late M400's and 3R's, your block isn't that type and the crack is on the opposite side of the block. LOONER said:
I just did this on my car and the new ball joint (supplied by Noble) now found out that its off a Vauxhall didn't fit in the block (supplied by Noble) I had to have it machined down by 1mm to get it in and we used a press !
I`m not quite sure what you mean - did you you machine down the thread on the ball joint and then pressed it in - sounds horrendous??? You don`t want to do anything that`s going to cause the block to be stressed as it will crack again even quicker.Adrian W said:
BobE said:
In answer to the question I talked to the factory etc and no you have to pay which really isn`t right in my opinion. (I`m not sure what the vehicle inspectorate would make of it - especially as Noble are still in existance in the UK). The block plus postage was £62.45 and the two new bolts £7.02 including postage - so it`s nearly £70 to make the repair (with your time free of course). When you`ve got everything together it takes about 30 minutes to do the job - plus how ever long it takes to remove the old ball joint which in my case was about the same again with a lot of swearing....
hmmmm the known fault is a crack across the grub screw on late M400's and 3R's, your block isn't that type and the crack is on the opposite side of the block. Gassing Station | Noble | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff