Opinions on Outdoor Furniture product/strategy
Discussion
I'm looking for some PH opinion on a product that I deal in. Namely Outdoor Rattan Furniture.
I am sure most of you know what it is. You may not know that the £1,000 dining table sets and sofas are simply junk made from PVC and require assembly. You can pay £6k for a decent sofa set or dining set and anything of a reasonable quality is around £4,000.
My business originated in New Zealand and Australia where you have to produce this product using the very best materials because our UV is so high anything other than German Rattan fibre will fall apart in 12 months. I also use marine reticulated foam due to the high rain fall and Italian and US fabrics which won't fade or rot.
The market at the £1k level is huge with the top 5 vendors in the UK alone shifting approx 2000 containers annually. There are probably 50 vendors selling the 4-6k settings with the majority at the low end of that range. So the market at the higher end is still large, maybe 5% by volume and 15% by value.
My question to all of you is, would you just buy the 1k version as 'it is all the same' or would you research such a spend and appreciate that you have to spend a fair bit more. Incidentally my product is objectively as good as the 6k product but will sell for about 3k. Our model is be half the price of our competitors. The reason I am asking is because I'm unsure whether I will just pull in sales from the 4-6k buyers alone or is there potential to pull a reasonable percentage of the 1k buyers.
This strategy has placed us Number 1 in the premium furniture category in NZ.
I am sure most of you know what it is. You may not know that the £1,000 dining table sets and sofas are simply junk made from PVC and require assembly. You can pay £6k for a decent sofa set or dining set and anything of a reasonable quality is around £4,000.
My business originated in New Zealand and Australia where you have to produce this product using the very best materials because our UV is so high anything other than German Rattan fibre will fall apart in 12 months. I also use marine reticulated foam due to the high rain fall and Italian and US fabrics which won't fade or rot.
The market at the £1k level is huge with the top 5 vendors in the UK alone shifting approx 2000 containers annually. There are probably 50 vendors selling the 4-6k settings with the majority at the low end of that range. So the market at the higher end is still large, maybe 5% by volume and 15% by value.
My question to all of you is, would you just buy the 1k version as 'it is all the same' or would you research such a spend and appreciate that you have to spend a fair bit more. Incidentally my product is objectively as good as the 6k product but will sell for about 3k. Our model is be half the price of our competitors. The reason I am asking is because I'm unsure whether I will just pull in sales from the 4-6k buyers alone or is there potential to pull a reasonable percentage of the 1k buyers.
This strategy has placed us Number 1 in the premium furniture category in NZ.
As mentioned in my other post in here today, I sell furniture, not outdoor stuff (have sold Emu and Westminster in the past though) but its a similar marketplace so I will give you my thoughts.
I have always found it diffucult to "upsell" to people in general. The product I sell is expensive, but then it is also of the highest quality. The desk I sell for example is £3k at retail. In the past, the 8 or so desks that I have sold, have been to people who loved the style, wanted the best of quality first of all, and ask the price second. Whereas the people who spend £1k on a wooden desk, will be seeing what they can get for their money - at that point I reckon it comes down to branding, what looks more expensive than it is, and if it looks like what they expected it to look like.
I could ramble on about this for ages, fire me an email if you want to chat about it (and their may be common ground for us both)
I have always found it diffucult to "upsell" to people in general. The product I sell is expensive, but then it is also of the highest quality. The desk I sell for example is £3k at retail. In the past, the 8 or so desks that I have sold, have been to people who loved the style, wanted the best of quality first of all, and ask the price second. Whereas the people who spend £1k on a wooden desk, will be seeing what they can get for their money - at that point I reckon it comes down to branding, what looks more expensive than it is, and if it looks like what they expected it to look like.
I could ramble on about this for ages, fire me an email if you want to chat about it (and their may be common ground for us both)
I agree with your sentiments if you know Westminster then you must also know Dedon. Our product is that quality. Westminster, Barlow Tyrie may sell decent wood products but their rattan is very average. I know Emu. They were next to me at Spoga. Funky metal chairs
My experience in NZ is we have really hurt Dedon, Gloster and Cane-Line. Our customers could certainly afford anything and they chose us. It's not just price I think what we offer is actually nicer than the competition due to things like using Italian fabrics on our outdoor furniture
I certainly ascribe to the 'if it's worth 5k' sell it for 5k camp however it's a strange market out there. On reflection what i posted above was not really what i had in mind. I guess what i am suggesting is we should be able to capture a bigger share of that 4-6k market. I know if someone has £1k to spend they won't spend £3k
Thanks for your comments
My experience in NZ is we have really hurt Dedon, Gloster and Cane-Line. Our customers could certainly afford anything and they chose us. It's not just price I think what we offer is actually nicer than the competition due to things like using Italian fabrics on our outdoor furniture
I certainly ascribe to the 'if it's worth 5k' sell it for 5k camp however it's a strange market out there. On reflection what i posted above was not really what i had in mind. I guess what i am suggesting is we should be able to capture a bigger share of that 4-6k market. I know if someone has £1k to spend they won't spend £3k
Thanks for your comments
Where are you planning on selling this? UK or NZ? Given that the weather is so much better in NZ, I'd have thought it is more popular than UK, so perhaps comparing apples and oranges?
Apologies if I've picked that up wrong.
For me, I've been retailing upper end furniture for a year or two (although very much at arms length) and now appreciate that a lot of the cheap stuff is crap and spending a bit more gets you a lot better quality. Would that make me upgrade from a £1k set to a £6k set? Not sure
Apologies if I've picked that up wrong.
For me, I've been retailing upper end furniture for a year or two (although very much at arms length) and now appreciate that a lot of the cheap stuff is crap and spending a bit more gets you a lot better quality. Would that make me upgrade from a £1k set to a £6k set? Not sure
The largest retailers in the UK spend vast sums on advertising and promotion. Pop down to the ideal home show in London, see the stands then get a quote from the organisers and then sit down to recover!! Add on staffing and other costs and the eyes water.
For me outdoor furniture is all about promotion. We bought some not that long ago and I was amazed by the choice of retailers out there. In the end we bought from the show because it gave us a chance to see lots of stuff in the flesh. We ended up at around £1,500 for an L shaped sofa, a chair a table and some planters. I can't see we would have spent £4,000.
With our wooden / rattan gazebo table and chairs (which have German "rattan" oddly) we bought from a concession in a garden centre who were discounting heavily and thoughtfully employed a sales lad who hadn't got the first clue bless him. One of our better buys in life and I actually had to stop myself from paying any less
Henry
For me outdoor furniture is all about promotion. We bought some not that long ago and I was amazed by the choice of retailers out there. In the end we bought from the show because it gave us a chance to see lots of stuff in the flesh. We ended up at around £1,500 for an L shaped sofa, a chair a table and some planters. I can't see we would have spent £4,000.
With our wooden / rattan gazebo table and chairs (which have German "rattan" oddly) we bought from a concession in a garden centre who were discounting heavily and thoughtfully employed a sales lad who hadn't got the first clue bless him. One of our better buys in life and I actually had to stop myself from paying any less
Henry
I know that the Home Show at Earls court would cost about 50k for a modest stand-say 50 M2. factor in cost to build a stand, staff etc and it's 70k The most popular Modular setting we sell is an L shape of 3.4M X 2.5M at a bit under £4k and agreed, it is all about visual impression. A lot of the cost is not just German fibre, it is top end marine foam and fabrics. the cushions on the above set cost £1k to make. Then we use marine grade stainless rather than alloy. It sounds like you got a good deal Henry and the price you paid was probably cost to quit stock. If one is happy timing a purchase, sure deals can be had but you can't base a business around discounting all the time.
There are still a large number of higher end dealers here so I know the market is quite good. We will use our money on SEO/Google to advertise and perhaps attend a designers/specifiers trade show.
There are still a large number of higher end dealers here so I know the market is quite good. We will use our money on SEO/Google to advertise and perhaps attend a designers/specifiers trade show.
It is difficult to give an answer without seeing the products side by side but
I think that people will still look at the price, coming up with £3,000 at the moment when £1,000 will "get you in the game" is a big ask.
Also, particularly in terms of outdoor furniture, which takes one hell of a battering in the UK, I suspect a lot of people will feel that they will be better off buying 3 x the £1,000 set over (say) a 6 year period than buying one of the £3,000 sets. That is, that at the end of the sixth year, the third £1,000 set will be in better shape than the £3,000 set - if you can get over that, you may be on to a winner
I think that people will still look at the price, coming up with £3,000 at the moment when £1,000 will "get you in the game" is a big ask.
Also, particularly in terms of outdoor furniture, which takes one hell of a battering in the UK, I suspect a lot of people will feel that they will be better off buying 3 x the £1,000 set over (say) a 6 year period than buying one of the £3,000 sets. That is, that at the end of the sixth year, the third £1,000 set will be in better shape than the £3,000 set - if you can get over that, you may be on to a winner
Stitch, not sure I agree that anyone wants to buy 3 sets at 1k over 6 years. Why not just buy 1 set at 3k which has a 5 year warranty and will last 10 yrs(fabrics we use get a manufacturers 10yr warranty and fibre 7 years). Am not being argumentative at all but the climate here is mild compared to NZ. It's the rain and UV that kills furniture. The UK UV index runs 1-10 and you track a 6 on average. In NZ it is currently 12 i.e off the scale.
I think that the cheap rattan market will be done as quickly as it started-at about 2-3 years 90% of it will be in land fill and the retailers (big ones are all e-comm)who sold 1000s of containers will duck and run. I am not just saying this because i deal in a good product. There are objective technical reasons why the materials they are using are not up to the job. Many thanks for all the comments. I find it genuinely helpful to listen to various opinions.
I think that the cheap rattan market will be done as quickly as it started-at about 2-3 years 90% of it will be in land fill and the retailers (big ones are all e-comm)who sold 1000s of containers will duck and run. I am not just saying this because i deal in a good product. There are objective technical reasons why the materials they are using are not up to the job. Many thanks for all the comments. I find it genuinely helpful to listen to various opinions.
I don't have much moen myself, never have had and it's never bothered me. However, I have, through my work etc, had a lot of contact with a lot of people to who the kind of money you are talking about would not be a problem. Some of these are on the Sunday Times rich list, and nowhere near the bottom of it either.
Anyway, the point I want to make is that in many cases furniture purchases are made by the wives, and these are ladies who do not work. Instead they go shopping. To sell to these people you need to have your product either in the sorts of shops they use, or somewhere where they are likely to go, or in the portfolios of designers.
Anyway, the point I want to make is that in many cases furniture purchases are made by the wives, and these are ladies who do not work. Instead they go shopping. To sell to these people you need to have your product either in the sorts of shops they use, or somewhere where they are likely to go, or in the portfolios of designers.
burwoodman said:
JABB said:
My experience with garden furniture is in the UK, people tend to think throw away for the most part. There are a few top end companies out there, but getting an unknown brand into their territory will be hard going.
What brands do you consider top end.We made a range of English oak furniture, which I would consider top end, but we struggled with it.
I'm one that wouldn't buy a £1K set let alone a £4K set.
Over the last 25 years I've had 2 sets of white plastic table and chair sets and a lounger ...total cost approx £100. They're kept outside all year round and have been very good value for money.
Reason why I wouldn't spend much on a set is that my garden is open and therefore vulnerable to theft ( if I had anything worth nicking
).
Over the last 25 years I've had 2 sets of white plastic table and chair sets and a lounger ...total cost approx £100. They're kept outside all year round and have been very good value for money.
Reason why I wouldn't spend much on a set is that my garden is open and therefore vulnerable to theft ( if I had anything worth nicking
). People spending 1k are likely budget concious, upselling them to 3K is going to be a hard sell. I thinnk it would be easier to try and gain a bigger market share from the 6k crowd.
As you mention marine grade matierials, is there not a market for deck furniture. Nearly everything available for yachts is teak. Your rattan is probably a lot lighter than solid teak, so easier on the deck. How does rattan hold up to salt and damp? I believe teak is so popular on yachts as it doesnt expand to much when wet (Could be wrong).
How do you sell your stuff now? showroom, mail order?
As you mention marine grade matierials, is there not a market for deck furniture. Nearly everything available for yachts is teak. Your rattan is probably a lot lighter than solid teak, so easier on the deck. How does rattan hold up to salt and damp? I believe teak is so popular on yachts as it doesnt expand to much when wet (Could be wrong).
How do you sell your stuff now? showroom, mail order?
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