My worst nightmare come true...
Discussion
Guys, I know I've not been around much (the testing times of starting a new job), but I've got a BIG problem and need some advice... (please assume I have very minimal technical knowledge, because that's exactly the case!)
My 420SE started playing up a couple months ago, oil pressure gauge reading zero (oil light not on) and engine running a bit rough, especially around 1500-2000rpm and also down on power. Had local garage check the simple things, they decided it was cyl-1 causing problems, but as they'd checked the simple things like leads/plugs etc they felt it possibly either injector/lifter/cam problem, but admitted they don't really know much about TVR's. They're familiar with rover v8's but this one is obviously heavily modified.
RT Racing couldn't fit it in immediately but Richard said that so long as the oil light wasn't on and it wasn't rattling it should be reasonably safe to drive it, so about 50-60 miles were done in it, at which point it started getting rougher, so left it sat for a week or two til he could fit it in.
That was a couple months ago, he's now finally got around to looking at it and told me that almost all bearings are shot which is where the pressure is going, and it's running rough once its warmed up since the lifters aren't getting the required pressure once the oil thins up a bit, due to the lack of pressure. He's quoted me an all-in price of nearly £5k to refurb the engine, or suggested taking a chance on a 2nd hand 3.9ltr.
Obviously I'd like to keep the existing engine if at all possible due to how rare the 420SE was/is, but this is some serious money that I really can't afford. It'd be tough at the best of times but I've got a kid on the way and really need to move house first half of next year. The car interior has seen better days but is perfectly useable, but the paintwork and chassis are both in excellent condition (re-sprayed 2004, full chassis treatment this year), so I'm guessing that even if the engine was good it'd only be worth about £6k-ish...
Given those few things I seriously doubt I could convince her indoors that it's a good idea to spend £5k on it. She'd probably let me due to it having belonged to my late uncle for 20yrs before he gave it me, but it'd cost me my entire accumulated balance of brownie points and a couple years in the doghouse.
Any & all advice is very much appreciated.
(I know how good a reputation RT Racing have in TVR circles, but for some reason I'm suspecting something is a little wrong here. For instance, I wouldn't have expected worn bearings to cause a loss of oil pressure? Surely to lose oil pressure either the pump has to be fooked or it has to be pi$$ing out of somewhere?)
My 420SE started playing up a couple months ago, oil pressure gauge reading zero (oil light not on) and engine running a bit rough, especially around 1500-2000rpm and also down on power. Had local garage check the simple things, they decided it was cyl-1 causing problems, but as they'd checked the simple things like leads/plugs etc they felt it possibly either injector/lifter/cam problem, but admitted they don't really know much about TVR's. They're familiar with rover v8's but this one is obviously heavily modified.
RT Racing couldn't fit it in immediately but Richard said that so long as the oil light wasn't on and it wasn't rattling it should be reasonably safe to drive it, so about 50-60 miles were done in it, at which point it started getting rougher, so left it sat for a week or two til he could fit it in.
That was a couple months ago, he's now finally got around to looking at it and told me that almost all bearings are shot which is where the pressure is going, and it's running rough once its warmed up since the lifters aren't getting the required pressure once the oil thins up a bit, due to the lack of pressure. He's quoted me an all-in price of nearly £5k to refurb the engine, or suggested taking a chance on a 2nd hand 3.9ltr.
Obviously I'd like to keep the existing engine if at all possible due to how rare the 420SE was/is, but this is some serious money that I really can't afford. It'd be tough at the best of times but I've got a kid on the way and really need to move house first half of next year. The car interior has seen better days but is perfectly useable, but the paintwork and chassis are both in excellent condition (re-sprayed 2004, full chassis treatment this year), so I'm guessing that even if the engine was good it'd only be worth about £6k-ish...
Given those few things I seriously doubt I could convince her indoors that it's a good idea to spend £5k on it. She'd probably let me due to it having belonged to my late uncle for 20yrs before he gave it me, but it'd cost me my entire accumulated balance of brownie points and a couple years in the doghouse.
Any & all advice is very much appreciated.
(I know how good a reputation RT Racing have in TVR circles, but for some reason I'm suspecting something is a little wrong here. For instance, I wouldn't have expected worn bearings to cause a loss of oil pressure? Surely to lose oil pressure either the pump has to be fooked or it has to be pi$$ing out of somewhere?)
Well the crank gets most of the oil, and if bearings are very worn, they are going to allow too much oil to pass, and hence not alone pressure to build up. oil, water air etc. will always take the path of least resistance. so if all the oil can pass via the bearings, it will and will not get to the lifters. I very much doubt he's not trying to get the work.
You could reduce some of the cost, if you could take out and replace the engine yourself, as it's going to take a day to remove and a day to put back in.
But does sound a little bit expensive, but even if it all goes to plan, you can end up spending a day tinkering to get it all right, you not going to get this if you take the engine out yourself and get it refreshed.
Also depends on what being done, is it's just new bearings, or is the crank getting a re-grind, and oversize bearing fitted, also is its it getting a hone, new rings and new camshaft bearings. also does the camshaft need changing is this in this price.
Also all depends on how quick you want the work done,
You could reduce some of the cost, if you could take out and replace the engine yourself, as it's going to take a day to remove and a day to put back in.
But does sound a little bit expensive, but even if it all goes to plan, you can end up spending a day tinkering to get it all right, you not going to get this if you take the engine out yourself and get it refreshed.
Also depends on what being done, is it's just new bearings, or is the crank getting a re-grind, and oversize bearing fitted, also is its it getting a hone, new rings and new camshaft bearings. also does the camshaft need changing is this in this price.
Also all depends on how quick you want the work done,
broadside said:
If I remember correctly TVR Power were offering full V8 rebuilds for £3.5K. Might be worth sending the engine back to the guys that built it in the first place.
True, but then you still got to pay for it to come out, 2 man jobs 1 day in 1 day out, 1 day tinkering. so you have to add 6 man days labour to that price (will easy make that price 5K also), also the 3.5K price will be plus vat, not sure if RT price was inc.2 months to come up with a quote!
I would talk to some other specialists to get an idea as to what a rebuild will cost on average. I'm probably long out of touch but £5k seems farsical.
I would suggest that TVR Power may be the smartest move as it probably looks better if a sale were ever needed.
I'd mothball the car and set up a fund and build that up until you can have the work done. When I was younger I would get crappy evening jobs just to get money for unexpected bills on the Griff.
I would talk to some other specialists to get an idea as to what a rebuild will cost on average. I'm probably long out of touch but £5k seems farsical.
I would suggest that TVR Power may be the smartest move as it probably looks better if a sale were ever needed.
I'd mothball the car and set up a fund and build that up until you can have the work done. When I was younger I would get crappy evening jobs just to get money for unexpected bills on the Griff.
Personnaly I'd take a punt on a 3.9. Then if you've got some space to work (even a rental garage @ £40pm), have a go at rebuilding the engine yourself, the Rover V8s really aren't that complicated. Any machining & pressing can be done by specialists, and you can take all the time you want to source bargain parts.
James, it depends on your spanner capabilities. For that sort of dosh though it is worth learning!
This is what I would do, assuming you want to drive the car:
a) While your engine is still in there, check all you can, e.g. compression test etc.
b) Get any running SDi injection lump you can get your hands on for minimal squids, then transplant into your car.
c) DIY your own lump and take your time. If you do it slowly it will be a lot cheaper plus you may well pick up some bargain parts off fleabay.
d) When done, bang your original lump back in.
This is what I would do, assuming you want to drive the car:
a) While your engine is still in there, check all you can, e.g. compression test etc.
b) Get any running SDi injection lump you can get your hands on for minimal squids, then transplant into your car.
c) DIY your own lump and take your time. If you do it slowly it will be a lot cheaper plus you may well pick up some bargain parts off fleabay.
d) When done, bang your original lump back in.
Wow, thanks for the quick replies chaps, very much appreciated!
In response to a few comments:
The RT Racing price of £5k was broken down as this --> 3.5k for rebuild, approx £600 for the in & out work, and then VAT on top, resulting in just under £5k, so allowing for a couple hours contingency, £5k.
Where I live at the moment doesn't have a garage, so we're using the GF's parents garage, which they're ok with at the moment, but it's small, not enough room for the car + original engine separate, so getting a 3.5/3.9 put in for use in the meantime & mothballing the current lump ain't really an option (no other storage available). My current mechanical skills are woefully lacking, although I am quite good with my hands and am an IT techy by trade, so the technical/theory side of things comes quite easy to me as well...
I was planning on starting to maintain the car myself & learning the ropes after we've moved house anyway and have our own garage, not only to keep costs low but also as it's what my uncle did and I kind of want to honour his work and learn what he used to do etc.
It would be good to have sent it to TVR Power for the rebuild, but there would be additional costs involved by way of transport etc, without any real saving on the engine/labour, so that's not really feasible unfortunately.
It was compression tested by the local garage before going to RT racing, they didn't mention specific values but said it was fine. It was also tested beginning of this year with all cyl's between 196-212.
At this point in time I'm thinking that laying the car up for a year or so is looking like the best option. I would love to have it on the road right now, but really can't bring myself to spend that kind of cash right now given my current circumstances, and am certainly not about to ruin a rare 420SE by sticking a different engine in it and selling the original [because of lack of storage]. no way.
Thanks also for the comment about bad bearings potentially resulting in pressure loss, that was my main concern, that I was getting fleeced by RT. I still don't understand how you lose pressure without either A) losing oil or B) losing the pump, but don't worry about explaining it! No doubt that'll be one of the things I'll learn when I've got space to work on it myself!
Thanks again guys, much appreciated
In response to a few comments:
The RT Racing price of £5k was broken down as this --> 3.5k for rebuild, approx £600 for the in & out work, and then VAT on top, resulting in just under £5k, so allowing for a couple hours contingency, £5k.
Where I live at the moment doesn't have a garage, so we're using the GF's parents garage, which they're ok with at the moment, but it's small, not enough room for the car + original engine separate, so getting a 3.5/3.9 put in for use in the meantime & mothballing the current lump ain't really an option (no other storage available). My current mechanical skills are woefully lacking, although I am quite good with my hands and am an IT techy by trade, so the technical/theory side of things comes quite easy to me as well...
I was planning on starting to maintain the car myself & learning the ropes after we've moved house anyway and have our own garage, not only to keep costs low but also as it's what my uncle did and I kind of want to honour his work and learn what he used to do etc.
It would be good to have sent it to TVR Power for the rebuild, but there would be additional costs involved by way of transport etc, without any real saving on the engine/labour, so that's not really feasible unfortunately.
It was compression tested by the local garage before going to RT racing, they didn't mention specific values but said it was fine. It was also tested beginning of this year with all cyl's between 196-212.
At this point in time I'm thinking that laying the car up for a year or so is looking like the best option. I would love to have it on the road right now, but really can't bring myself to spend that kind of cash right now given my current circumstances, and am certainly not about to ruin a rare 420SE by sticking a different engine in it and selling the original [because of lack of storage]. no way.
Thanks also for the comment about bad bearings potentially resulting in pressure loss, that was my main concern, that I was getting fleeced by RT. I still don't understand how you lose pressure without either A) losing oil or B) losing the pump, but don't worry about explaining it! No doubt that'll be one of the things I'll learn when I've got space to work on it myself!
Thanks again guys, much appreciated
_Absinthe_ said:
I still don't understand how you lose pressure without either A) losing oil or B) losing the pump, but don't worry about explaining it!
Imagine the pump sending oil to two equally sized holes (crank and top-end) then one of the holes gradually gets bigger. Less oil will go through the other hole.£5K sounds way too much, but I'm not an RV8 expert. Perhaps if you go to a PH meet in your area, you'll find someone who'll help you source an engine and swap it? Sounds like fun if you're not in a hurry.
There's a 3.9 on eBay, search for "Range Rover Classic 93 V8 3.9EFI LONG ENGINE", from a 100% +ve feedback seller for £250, if you're anywhere near Southampton.
You and an experienced mate could probably fit it in a long weekend. Good luck.
Transmitter Man said:
I think 5K's a little rich for a stock RV8.
The name TVR seems to add a zero or three.
Never understood that.
I'd check PH classified or ePay.
Phil
420 SEAC
Maybe a little but, but he's running a company and paying staff and premises and has to make some profit, plus if the cars not been worked on every thing will be seized. but also with this he'll have all the right tools and experience, this will save time.The name TVR seems to add a zero or three.
Never understood that.
I'd check PH classified or ePay.
Phil
420 SEAC
Also as said there can be a lot of tinkering time, easy to write off when it's your own time, not when your paying staff.
James,
PM me your details, I'm based around Sheffield, and I've a cousin who works as a mechanic. He's on the SY/Derbyshire border and I trust his garage with any work I can't do on my TVR. He MOT's all my cars.
If you want I can get him to give you a quote for removing the old engine and fitting a replacement lump.
PM me your details, I'm based around Sheffield, and I've a cousin who works as a mechanic. He's on the SY/Derbyshire border and I trust his garage with any work I can't do on my TVR. He MOT's all my cars.
If you want I can get him to give you a quote for removing the old engine and fitting a replacement lump.
It's probably not want you want to hear, and I really sympathise with your dliemma, but I think unless you are going to be in a position to repair it in a way that you would be happy with, use it and keep it for 5+ years, I would sell it as is. A friend had a 450 for several years. Then moved house, had a family, and didn't use the car for about 5 years. Then sold it to a dealer for cash. Why tie up your asset like that if you won't be in a position to use it? I know there is a sentimental attachment, which makes it all the more diffcult, but cars need to be used.
7.
7.
-Pete- said:
There's a 3.9 on eBay, search for "Range Rover Classic 93 V8 3.9EFI LONG ENGINE", from a 100% +ve feedback seller for £250, if you're anywhere near Southampton.
This sounds like the best option to me. Hire a van for the day, pick up the engine and let Richard fit it all for less than a grand, just. Spray the 4.2 in WD40 and refurb when you have some more money.For all those who think that RT is expensive, what prices are you expecting for an engine swap? £600+ VAT seems quite good to me.
Ok, I've had some development on the engine front. I've been contacted by a nice chap called Tony who saw my thread on here. He has a 4.2 engine that's been recently rebuilt and not used since the work was done. He's looking for something in the region of £1000 for it.
It's got new JE Engineering Pistons and rings resulting in a compression ratio just under 10:1, it's got new Piper 285 cams & followers. The heads are the later 10-bolt sort instead of the 14-bolt variant. but valves/heads are standard. (I'm guessing my existing ones could potentially be swapped over?)
I've just fired an email over to him to ask the following questions:
1) How much of the work did you do yourself, and how far was the engine stripped down?
2) Has it been running at all since the rebuild?
3) How long has it been stored since the work, and in what sort of area/conditions?
4) Are you able to offer any sort of guarantee that it won't go pop when started?
Do you lovely/helpful/kind/generous chaps think all this sounds reasonable? Any other thoughts...?
It's got new JE Engineering Pistons and rings resulting in a compression ratio just under 10:1, it's got new Piper 285 cams & followers. The heads are the later 10-bolt sort instead of the 14-bolt variant. but valves/heads are standard. (I'm guessing my existing ones could potentially be swapped over?)
I've just fired an email over to him to ask the following questions:
1) How much of the work did you do yourself, and how far was the engine stripped down?
2) Has it been running at all since the rebuild?
3) How long has it been stored since the work, and in what sort of area/conditions?
4) Are you able to offer any sort of guarantee that it won't go pop when started?
Do you lovely/helpful/kind/generous chaps think all this sounds reasonable? Any other thoughts...?
_Absinthe_ said:
Ok, I've had some development on the engine front. I've been contacted by a nice chap called Tony who saw my thread on here. He has a 4.2 engine that's been recently rebuilt and not used since the work was done. He's looking for something in the region of £1000 for it.
It's got new JE Engineering Pistons and rings resulting in a compression ratio just under 10:1, it's got new Piper 285 cams & followers. The heads are the later 10-bolt sort instead of the 14-bolt variant. but valves/heads are standard. (I'm guessing my existing ones could potentially be swapped over?)
I've just fired an email over to him to ask the following questions:
1) How much of the work did you do yourself, and how far was the engine stripped down?
2) Has it been running at all since the rebuild?
3) How long has it been stored since the work, and in what sort of area/conditions?
4) Are you able to offer any sort of guarantee that it won't go pop when started?
Do you lovely/helpful/kind/generous chaps think all this sounds reasonable? Any other thoughts...?
Off the top of my head I'd say that the only hope of a guarantee would be from JE. They probably won't do that if someone else's work is involved so ring them up and ask for a price guide to fit your heads - they will likely want the caveat of seeing your heads before confirming a price.It's got new JE Engineering Pistons and rings resulting in a compression ratio just under 10:1, it's got new Piper 285 cams & followers. The heads are the later 10-bolt sort instead of the 14-bolt variant. but valves/heads are standard. (I'm guessing my existing ones could potentially be swapped over?)
I've just fired an email over to him to ask the following questions:
1) How much of the work did you do yourself, and how far was the engine stripped down?
2) Has it been running at all since the rebuild?
3) How long has it been stored since the work, and in what sort of area/conditions?
4) Are you able to offer any sort of guarantee that it won't go pop when started?
Do you lovely/helpful/kind/generous chaps think all this sounds reasonable? Any other thoughts...?
Could well be a good route: Car to Sheffield, heads to Coventry to mate with the Block, sell other heads, fit engine in car.
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