Parking Ticket Rules.
Discussion
I live near Manchester but on the 4/8/08 my Wife and I had to visit a supplier In Central london and having fought our way through the traffic and paying the congestion charge by phone we eventually arrived at our location on Great Portland Street. I pulled over and we both went inside with the intention of asking the person we were visiting where i would be best parking, i was in the shop for 30 seconds. Having found out where to park i then left the shop but as i was leaving i noticed about 35 mtrs away there was a traffic warden taking a picture of my car, i just ignored him and got in the car and started to drive away but as i started to drive away the chap hurried over to the passenger side and took a picture of my tax disc,my car was actually moving at this point and he was actually walking along side the car as he took the picture of the tax disc!
I obviously didnt receive any notice on my windscreen and didnt give the matter that much thought apart from wondering if id receive anything in the post.
Just this week i have now received a Notice to owner. stating that: "a penalty Charge Notice was Issued on the 04/08/08"
And a fine for £120
Now im assuming that the reason this is now £120 is because i have failed to pay what may have been a £60 fine or whatever westminster council charge for parking fines nowadays and they are assuming ive just ignored the notice which was never given!
I obviously havent paid anything before receiving this NTO because this £120 fine is the first actual correspondance i have received.
Now if stopping for 30 seconds is an offence which im sure the law will state is then im happy to pay a fine, but £120 sounds like abit of a p**s take considering all the above and the fact that my car was actually moving when this warden took a picture of the tax disc.
My main question is:
Where it says "a penalty charge notice was issued", does this mean physically issued as in placed on my windscreen because if so, my defence here will be that a penalty charge was not "issued" and therefore this is NTO is not enforcable as the Information on the NTO is incorrect.
I obviously didnt receive any notice on my windscreen and didnt give the matter that much thought apart from wondering if id receive anything in the post.
Just this week i have now received a Notice to owner. stating that: "a penalty Charge Notice was Issued on the 04/08/08"
And a fine for £120
Now im assuming that the reason this is now £120 is because i have failed to pay what may have been a £60 fine or whatever westminster council charge for parking fines nowadays and they are assuming ive just ignored the notice which was never given!
I obviously havent paid anything before receiving this NTO because this £120 fine is the first actual correspondance i have received.
Now if stopping for 30 seconds is an offence which im sure the law will state is then im happy to pay a fine, but £120 sounds like abit of a p**s take considering all the above and the fact that my car was actually moving when this warden took a picture of the tax disc.
My main question is:
Where it says "a penalty charge notice was issued", does this mean physically issued as in placed on my windscreen because if so, my defence here will be that a penalty charge was not "issued" and therefore this is NTO is not enforcable as the Information on the NTO is incorrect.
Unfortunately for your the rules were changed at the beginning of this year. In the old days the PCN had to be handed to the driver of placed on the vehicle for it to be 'served'
Under the new rules if the CEO has started to make a ticket out and the offender drives off then they have the power to continue with the PCN and serve by post. Once served this way one has 14 days to pay at the reduced rate after that full payment.
Something does not appear to be right as the PCN by post is your first notification and requests payment in 28 days. If not paid then the next step is Notice to Owner at which stage the reduced
payment is out of the window and denied you.
Not mentioned are grounds for appealing against the contravention,
you were caught in an area/circumstances where a contravention occurred. Just wonder if you approached them about the jump from contravention direct to Notice to Owner without the original PCN by post you may engineer a reduction back to the reduced rate?
dvd
Under the new rules if the CEO has started to make a ticket out and the offender drives off then they have the power to continue with the PCN and serve by post. Once served this way one has 14 days to pay at the reduced rate after that full payment.
Something does not appear to be right as the PCN by post is your first notification and requests payment in 28 days. If not paid then the next step is Notice to Owner at which stage the reduced
payment is out of the window and denied you.
Not mentioned are grounds for appealing against the contravention,
you were caught in an area/circumstances where a contravention occurred. Just wonder if you approached them about the jump from contravention direct to Notice to Owner without the original PCN by post you may engineer a reduction back to the reduced rate?
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
Unfortunately for your the rules were changed at the beginning of this year. In the old days the PCN had to be handed to the driver of placed on the vehicle for it to be 'served'
Under the new rules if the CEO has started to make a ticket out and the offender drives off then they have the power to continue with the PCN and serve by post. Once served this way one has 14 days to pay at the reduced rate after that full payment.
Something does not appear to be right as the PCN by post is your first notification and requests payment in 28 days. If not paid then the next step is Notice to Owner at which stage the reduced
payment is out of the window and denied you.
Not mentioned are grounds for appealing against the contravention,
you were caught in an area/circumstances where a contravention occurred. Just wonder if you approached them about the jump from contravention direct to Notice to Owner without the original PCN by post you may engineer a reduction back to the reduced rate?
dvd
Really appreciate the speedy reply dvd, you appear to know your stuff,Under the new rules if the CEO has started to make a ticket out and the offender drives off then they have the power to continue with the PCN and serve by post. Once served this way one has 14 days to pay at the reduced rate after that full payment.
Something does not appear to be right as the PCN by post is your first notification and requests payment in 28 days. If not paid then the next step is Notice to Owner at which stage the reduced
payment is out of the window and denied you.
Not mentioned are grounds for appealing against the contravention,
you were caught in an area/circumstances where a contravention occurred. Just wonder if you approached them about the jump from contravention direct to Notice to Owner without the original PCN by post you may engineer a reduction back to the reduced rate?
dvd
Are you saying then that i should have received something before this Notice To Owner?
The date on this NTO is 08/09/08 and it says at the top "Date of service of the Penalty Notice 4/8/08 exactly five weeks? obviously not giving me any opportunity to pay a reduced rate or query the validity of any contravention?
Edited by screem on Wednesday 17th September 20:31
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/site/scripts/document...
if they have moved strait to a notice to the owner
appeal
if they have moved strait to a notice to the owner
appeal
As far as I am aware then you should as the first step, have received a Reg 10 PCN (Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regs 2007).
This must contain the date posted (be received within 28 days of posting), details of contravention , effect of reduced payment scheme, the Fact that CEO was making ticket out and could not put on vehicle etc hence post.
Following on from that if nothing paid then Notice to Owner.
dvd
This must contain the date posted (be received within 28 days of posting), details of contravention , effect of reduced payment scheme, the Fact that CEO was making ticket out and could not put on vehicle etc hence post.
Following on from that if nothing paid then Notice to Owner.
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
As far as I am aware then you should as the first step, have received a Reg 10 PCN (Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regs 2007).
This must contain the date posted (be received within 28 days of posting), details of contravention , effect of reduced payment scheme, the Fact that CEO was making ticket out and could not put on vehicle etc hence post.
Following on from that if nothing paid then Notice to Owner.
dvd
This has not happened, The only correspondance i have had is the NTO !This must contain the date posted (be received within 28 days of posting), details of contravention , effect of reduced payment scheme, the Fact that CEO was making ticket out and could not put on vehicle etc hence post.
Following on from that if nothing paid then Notice to Owner.
dvd
Ill be giving them a call tomorrow.
Cheers.
Now that has set me thinking.
Regs mentioned specifically ealier state that a Reg 10 PCN is the first step where ticket has not been put on vehicle or given to driver.
If it had then that would be a Reg 9 PCN which if not paid attracts the NTO.
I wonder if CEO is working a flanker in that he has submitted a Reg 9 PCN to the Office and they are following that up in which case the system is wrong and as such I would consider an appeal.
I would therefore consider writing in response to the NTO that their system is flawed and that a PCN was never handed to driver or put on vehicle and that a Reg 10 PCN was never received and and as a result denied discount penalty.
They may accept and NFA or send a Notice of Rejection setting out why and important to you this will give details how to take the case further to a Parking Adjudicator who seem to be fair bunch.
The old system was a bit of a minefield but the new system intended to simplyfy is a worse minefield as there are now Four Statutory Instruments covering the subject with a set for England, Scotland and Wales - 12 in all.
dvd
Regs mentioned specifically ealier state that a Reg 10 PCN is the first step where ticket has not been put on vehicle or given to driver.
If it had then that would be a Reg 9 PCN which if not paid attracts the NTO.
I wonder if CEO is working a flanker in that he has submitted a Reg 9 PCN to the Office and they are following that up in which case the system is wrong and as such I would consider an appeal.
I would therefore consider writing in response to the NTO that their system is flawed and that a PCN was never handed to driver or put on vehicle and that a Reg 10 PCN was never received and and as a result denied discount penalty.
They may accept and NFA or send a Notice of Rejection setting out why and important to you this will give details how to take the case further to a Parking Adjudicator who seem to be fair bunch.
The old system was a bit of a minefield but the new system intended to simplyfy is a worse minefield as there are now Four Statutory Instruments covering the subject with a set for England, Scotland and Wales - 12 in all.
dvd
James J said:
there an easy answer to these council parking scams.
just register you car to a mail box. its legal the police can find the address of mail box holder.
but the council muppets are fooked with there decriminalised parking crap
I would imagine under relatively new 'snooping' laws, designed to protect against terrorism, the Council would now have the power to establish the registrant of a PO Box.just register you car to a mail box. its legal the police can find the address of mail box holder.
but the council muppets are fooked with there decriminalised parking crap
10 Pence Short said:
James J said:
there an easy answer to these council parking scams.
just register you car to a mail box. its legal the police can find the address of mail box holder.
but the council muppets are fooked with there decriminalised parking crap
I would imagine under relatively new 'snooping' laws, designed to protect against terrorism, the Council would now have the power to establish the registrant of a PO Box.just register you car to a mail box. its legal the police can find the address of mail box holder.
but the council muppets are fooked with there decriminalised parking crap
but a private service and there currently no way council can force a private company to hand it over
James J said:
10 Pence Short said:
James J said:
there an easy answer to these council parking scams.
just register you car to a mail box. its legal the police can find the address of mail box holder.
but the council muppets are fooked with there decriminalised parking crap
I would imagine under relatively new 'snooping' laws, designed to protect against terrorism, the Council would now have the power to establish the registrant of a PO Box.just register you car to a mail box. its legal the police can find the address of mail box holder.
but the council muppets are fooked with there decriminalised parking crap
but a private service and there currently no way council can force a private company to hand it over
tried when i left the country to leave my old Alfa registered this way. Was turned down.
davemac250 said:
James J said:
10 Pence Short said:
James J said:
there an easy answer to these council parking scams.
just register you car to a mail box. its legal the police can find the address of mail box holder.
but the council muppets are fooked with there decriminalised parking crap
I would imagine under relatively new 'snooping' laws, designed to protect against terrorism, the Council would now have the power to establish the registrant of a PO Box.just register you car to a mail box. its legal the police can find the address of mail box holder.
but the council muppets are fooked with there decriminalised parking crap
but a private service and there currently no way council can force a private company to hand it over
tried when i left the country to leave my old Alfa registered this way. Was turned down.
and not a mailing box look like there a mail box from the address.
its only you driving licence you you must register at your home address.
Update:
I telephoned the helpline and was told by some chap that if i had driven off while a ticket was in the process of being given then they would move directly to a NTO ?
I replied that therefore i would be given no opportunity to pay anything other than a £120 fine is this right?
He replied, Yes
I did send the NTO back to them the day after receiving it stating:
"Please supply me proof of this offence because i was not "issued" a penalty
notice on this day. Please also send me the legal procedure a CEO
has to comply with in order to issue a PCN."
the chap did also say that the above has been received and my case is on hold and i would receive a reply in the post soon.
I telephoned the helpline and was told by some chap that if i had driven off while a ticket was in the process of being given then they would move directly to a NTO ?
I replied that therefore i would be given no opportunity to pay anything other than a £120 fine is this right?
He replied, Yes
I did send the NTO back to them the day after receiving it stating:
"Please supply me proof of this offence because i was not "issued" a penalty
notice on this day. Please also send me the legal procedure a CEO
has to comply with in order to issue a PCN."
the chap did also say that the above has been received and my case is on hold and i would receive a reply in the post soon.
Thanks for that update Screem.
Interesting that they seem to be saying that they have developed a system to attracting twice the amount by going straight to NTO. Once the 'others' get to know then we will be seeing more PCN's sent by post as opposed to being placed on the vehicle.
If that is the case then I suspect your next will be a Notice of Rejection. In your shoes I would consider taking this all along the line the the Adjudicator. Its free but would need a bit of one's time.
dvd
Interesting that they seem to be saying that they have developed a system to attracting twice the amount by going straight to NTO. Once the 'others' get to know then we will be seeing more PCN's sent by post as opposed to being placed on the vehicle.
If that is the case then I suspect your next will be a Notice of Rejection. In your shoes I would consider taking this all along the line the the Adjudicator. Its free but would need a bit of one's time.
dvd
In my area there is a basic parking charge which is halved for early payment so if the same system applies where the OP parked then 120 would be the standard charge halved for early payment but with the early payment option waived for cars that are driven off to avoid the ticket.
I'm not being unsympathetic though, it's a hell of a price to pay.
I'm not being unsympathetic though, it's a hell of a price to pay.
Edited by herewego on Friday 19th September 08:52
Remember also that certainly London, and probably other cities, can and will and do now hand out fixed penalties for "offences" observed via CCTV. AFAIK this includes at least red route parking, and quite possibly/probably other parking violations. Definitely includes box junctions and bus lanes.
Update!
Absolutely Fuming Now!
Just recieved a "Notice of Rejection"
It basically says the vehicle was seen parked with one or more wheels on the footway.
Now this i can handle however what i cant take is CEO telling blatant lies.
Heres the bit that has me fuming:
"In your representation you stated that you did not recieve the PCN. The notes made by the CEO at the time of the contravention show the PCN was handed to the driver. The PCN was therefore properly served. As the driver was offered the opportunity of paying at the discounted amount and this has now expired, the full charge is now due."
Now most of that sentence is completely wrong because the bit that says the notice was "handed" to the driver is a complete LIE.
I obviously will be putting this in writing but wanted to post
this update here first for any advice?
Thanks
Absolutely Fuming Now!
Just recieved a "Notice of Rejection"
It basically says the vehicle was seen parked with one or more wheels on the footway.
Now this i can handle however what i cant take is CEO telling blatant lies.
Heres the bit that has me fuming:
"In your representation you stated that you did not recieve the PCN. The notes made by the CEO at the time of the contravention show the PCN was handed to the driver. The PCN was therefore properly served. As the driver was offered the opportunity of paying at the discounted amount and this has now expired, the full charge is now due."
Now most of that sentence is completely wrong because the bit that says the notice was "handed" to the driver is a complete LIE.
I obviously will be putting this in writing but wanted to post
this update here first for any advice?
Thanks
Looks like the CEO is working the oracle. If he put a PCN on the vehicle then that would be a Reg 9 Ticket which if not paid in 28 days then attracts the Notice to Owner that you mention as first contact from LA.
You now have had a Notice of Rejection to your submission which means you either accept and pay, or take it further down the line to the Parking Adjudicator. Details how to do this should be with the NoR.
Unless you have other evidence then its down to your word against that of the CEO. Bear in mind he may have some beans in his bag as he got glose enough to take a photo of your Licence?
dvd
You now have had a Notice of Rejection to your submission which means you either accept and pay, or take it further down the line to the Parking Adjudicator. Details how to do this should be with the NoR.
Unless you have other evidence then its down to your word against that of the CEO. Bear in mind he may have some beans in his bag as he got glose enough to take a photo of your Licence?
dvd
Hi dvd,
I have a witness in the form of my wife who just like myself is prepared to swear under oath if necessary that i was never handed a Ticket.
Also when i first telephoned the helpline number the chap i spoke to said that they had no photos attached to my case and for this reason alone i should appeal.
This may or may not be true however in my original reply after receiving the NTO, i Wrote in section 3 (evidence details)
"please supply proof of this offence because i was not issued a penalty notice on this day! Please also send me the legal procedure a TEO has to comply with in order to issue a PCN"
Neither of these things have been sent to me and the fact that i asked for Proof of the offence and they have sent nothing in my opinion implies that the photo either isnt in their possesion or because my vehicle was actually moving the photo of my license has come out blurred or is otherwise unreadable, and the TEO has not supplied them as supporting evidence.
Im definately going to appeal and see this through as this is no longer about the money but someone blatantly abusing their power and telling lies!
Whats the worst case scenario? will i have to pay appeal costs etc? What are these likely to be?
I have a witness in the form of my wife who just like myself is prepared to swear under oath if necessary that i was never handed a Ticket.
Also when i first telephoned the helpline number the chap i spoke to said that they had no photos attached to my case and for this reason alone i should appeal.
This may or may not be true however in my original reply after receiving the NTO, i Wrote in section 3 (evidence details)
"please supply proof of this offence because i was not issued a penalty notice on this day! Please also send me the legal procedure a TEO has to comply with in order to issue a PCN"
Neither of these things have been sent to me and the fact that i asked for Proof of the offence and they have sent nothing in my opinion implies that the photo either isnt in their possesion or because my vehicle was actually moving the photo of my license has come out blurred or is otherwise unreadable, and the TEO has not supplied them as supporting evidence.
Im definately going to appeal and see this through as this is no longer about the money but someone blatantly abusing their power and telling lies!
Whats the worst case scenario? will i have to pay appeal costs etc? What are these likely to be?
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