Classics: Elan or Europa
Discussion
Collective,
I'm in the market for a toy - something to cruise around country lanes and enjoy the lovely British weather. I am torn, practically in half, by the classic Elan and Europa. I have browsed the various sites dedicated to each model but that's just served to confuse the issue as they all make their focal car sound the bees knees (and I'm sure both are). So can someone tell me the pros and cons of each? I know a lot of it will depend on the particular specimen I find but I'm hoping there are some generic pointers (e.g. Car X is generally quicker whilst Y handles better etc etc).
Cheers,
DL
I'm in the market for a toy - something to cruise around country lanes and enjoy the lovely British weather. I am torn, practically in half, by the classic Elan and Europa. I have browsed the various sites dedicated to each model but that's just served to confuse the issue as they all make their focal car sound the bees knees (and I'm sure both are). So can someone tell me the pros and cons of each? I know a lot of it will depend on the particular specimen I find but I'm hoping there are some generic pointers (e.g. Car X is generally quicker whilst Y handles better etc etc).
Cheers,
DL
My opinion:
Handling is excellent on both and which is better will be more to do with condition and setup than which model. Performance will be similar on both if they both have twincams, slightly less with Renault Europa, but again that depends on the exact example as the renault engine can be well tuned.
The Elan will often be more highly thought of due to racing pedigree, popularity and the fact that the Elan is just an Iconic car, but the Europa has arguable the more stunning looks and is rarer.
The Elan is more practical and you could get a convertible which is fun for a toy.
So basically it's up to you !!!
S.
Handling is excellent on both and which is better will be more to do with condition and setup than which model. Performance will be similar on both if they both have twincams, slightly less with Renault Europa, but again that depends on the exact example as the renault engine can be well tuned.
The Elan will often be more highly thought of due to racing pedigree, popularity and the fact that the Elan is just an Iconic car, but the Europa has arguable the more stunning looks and is rarer.
The Elan is more practical and you could get a convertible which is fun for a toy.
So basically it's up to you !!!
S.
Whilst past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future performance, in terms of £££ value Europas have been fairly static over the years - with an interesting but modest increase only very recently. Whereas Elans seem to command the higher prices - probably owing to greater press/magazine coverage and greater popularity. Certainly with a Europa, as things stand at the moment anything more than a modest general tidy-up is likely to leave you out of pocket come the time to sell. (But do you buy to invest or buy to enjoy and hang the cost??)
Maintenance-wise, some parts for the Europa are getting scarce and even some substitute parts are getting scarce too. I suspect, and am open to contradiction, that Elan parts or replacement/substitutes are more plentiful.
In terms of styling the Europa is arguably a like it or love it style - personally I fell in love with it when I saw one as a boy in the 70s and that remained with me ever since. Both the Europa and the Elan will turn heads and get you into interesting and surprising conversations with people almost every time you park them up somewhere.
I sorely rue the day I sold my Europa, but needs must at the time. Should the opportunity arise again I'd buy one again in a flash.
PS the main thing with both cars is to drive them, and keep driving them. Spells sat in a garage do them no good at all. The more they're used, the better they'll be.
Maintenance-wise, some parts for the Europa are getting scarce and even some substitute parts are getting scarce too. I suspect, and am open to contradiction, that Elan parts or replacement/substitutes are more plentiful.
In terms of styling the Europa is arguably a like it or love it style - personally I fell in love with it when I saw one as a boy in the 70s and that remained with me ever since. Both the Europa and the Elan will turn heads and get you into interesting and surprising conversations with people almost every time you park them up somewhere.
I sorely rue the day I sold my Europa, but needs must at the time. Should the opportunity arise again I'd buy one again in a flash.
PS the main thing with both cars is to drive them, and keep driving them. Spells sat in a garage do them no good at all. The more they're used, the better they'll be.
Edited by 72EuropaTC on Saturday 18th June 02:00
72EuropaTC said:
Maintenance-wise, some parts for the Europa are getting scarce and even some substitute parts are getting scarce too. I suspect, and am open to contradiction, that Elan parts or replacement/substitutes are more plentiful.
Yes, the Elan parts situation is excellent - with the exception of some electrical switches and the vaccuum switch for the pop-up headlamps (which can be replaced by an electric solenoid vaccuum switch) pretty much everything is available new, and at reasonable cost. Some engine parts (eg. crank) are frighteningly expensive, though, and gearbox parts are becoming scarce (though the 4-speed box is bulletproof - avoid the 5-speed in any case, as its a bloody awful device; unreliable with a lousy gearchange).The Twin Cam Europa, in particular, is the much rarer car (fewer were built in the first place, and many have been exported to Japan in recent years 'cos the Japanese have a bit of a thing for them), so there's a certain appeal from the exclusivity.
My experience of the Europa is that its handling is excellent when the suspension components are in proper order, but any wear to bushes and UJ's at the back and it deteriorates dramatically. Chassis condition is critical on both of them but, due to its higher value the Elan is more likely to have had a chassis change than the Renault Europa in particular.
The gearchange on the Europa is never better than mediocre, whereas the 4-speed Ford box in the Elan has one of the best gearchanges of any car, ever (though its a bit short-geared for modern motorway use).
Visibility is better in the Elan and, of course, you can't get drop-head Europas if you want wind-in-the-hair motoring.
The aerodynamics on the Europa are superb - I still remember my first drive in one, winding the window down and being astonished at hearing only the slightest whisper of wind noise - which means the upper range performance is better than you might expect for the power output.
Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 20th June 12:09
First thing to do is drive both, I was fortunate enough to have had a Europa back in 1972 and loved it in fact both cars have their own special characteristics. About three years ago I had exactly the same idea as you and went and test drove a Europa that had been restored to a very high standard it was actually better than my original from what I can remember. The only problem I had was getting back out of it, obviously I've put on a bit of weight since my original ownership and I had visions of having to have my drink delivered to me at the local Club Lotus meeting as I'd be stuck in the seat.
Edited by Hi RX7 on Sunday 19th June 17:20
I had a Drop Head Sprint and a 5 speed twin cam Europe when they were current/near current. Given a choice in order I'd have a drop head sprint, then a Twin Cam Europe then a Fixed head Elan, i'e if a fixed head I like the Europe. But of course in the real world of price these days I'd probebly go for a 2+2 Elan as DH sprints are stupid money.
In the days there were all sort of arguments about Europa like better as the water pump turned by its own belt, etc etc, but today with modern tec thare can be nothing in it, as regars spares I was amazed yestrday at the availability and price my mate was quoting for parts for his Elan, prices were good and everything he needed was available off the shelf.
So pick on price and condition and the shape you like both are great.
In the days there were all sort of arguments about Europa like better as the water pump turned by its own belt, etc etc, but today with modern tec thare can be nothing in it, as regars spares I was amazed yestrday at the availability and price my mate was quoting for parts for his Elan, prices were good and everything he needed was available off the shelf.
So pick on price and condition and the shape you like both are great.
Thanks everyone - there's some great advice in this thread. It's always good hearing of others experiences. I think I am going to have to find decent examples of each type and test drive them. A decent looking Sprint lives nearby so I might cheekily pop round to have a look / play (although the earlier Elan's appeal to me more to be honest). I haven't yet factored in the views of She who must be obeyed - although this is clearly badged as my toy I'm experienced enough to know that she'll have executive veto...
Unlike most people on here, I was around and a young petrolhead when the Elan and Europa were new. I can't quite remember the reason why, but the Europa ( like the Elan +2) was never the same success nor lusted after in the way that the Elan was. I seem to remember that initially it had a Renault engine in the days when Renault didnt make good engines, though it might just have been the transaxle. Later models had the Ford twin cam. And the car leaked but then the Elan wasnt that watertight.
Certainly, the Elan is more of a classic but as I found out at the time, the Loads of Trouble Usually Serious was well deserved. From a financial point of view, and Elan would be a better bet and a series 4 at that.
Given what they now sell for, an early Elise would be a better bet.
Certainly, the Elan is more of a classic but as I found out at the time, the Loads of Trouble Usually Serious was well deserved. From a financial point of view, and Elan would be a better bet and a series 4 at that.
Given what they now sell for, an early Elise would be a better bet.
Hi Dan,
Another 2p's worth. I've got both a dhc elan & a TC europa, and have had them for a long while (25-30yrs ! ). I think it just comes down to if you want a dhc or a fixed head because both cars will give their share of grief and elation in equal measures.
I love both, the Elan because it seems to shrink around you and "fit"; the Europa because IMO it handles and feels much better at speed, although that might be a touch of the rose-tinted specs because it's currently awaiting yet another renovation this winter to get it back to form.
The Europa does wear out it's rear suspension quickly; smaller wheel bearings, UJs as driveshafts/upper links and once play develops you can feel it in the car. But the real Achilles heel is the gearchange; how Toyota can make an MR2 with a decent change and yet Lotus made such a mess of the Europa is beyond me, even allowing for the earlier time frame of the Europa. Be aware of it on your first test drive because it does take some getting used to. The Elan, in contrast, has a very modern feel to the controls.
Maybe because Elans are more expensive the parts availability is probably better and there are more upgrades; rubber donuts replaced with CV joints for example. As a warning, the original 5sp Europa gearboxes were made of un-obtainium back in the 80s and most folks end up using a more modern Renault gearbox conversion when it goes wrong.
If you are buying for fun on the odd sunny day, SWMBO doesn't like struggling to get in cars and there's no budget constraints, then a dhc Elan. If you want (IMO) the best 60s Lotus handling and something to use on the odd motorway trip, then a TC Europa. But with the Europa it must be a good one, top-end prices.
As a wildcard, and often cheaper than either a good Europa or Elan, how about the Elan +2 ? Better handling than the 2-seater elan, a bit slower but much more practical to live with ?
Brian
Another 2p's worth. I've got both a dhc elan & a TC europa, and have had them for a long while (25-30yrs ! ). I think it just comes down to if you want a dhc or a fixed head because both cars will give their share of grief and elation in equal measures.
I love both, the Elan because it seems to shrink around you and "fit"; the Europa because IMO it handles and feels much better at speed, although that might be a touch of the rose-tinted specs because it's currently awaiting yet another renovation this winter to get it back to form.
The Europa does wear out it's rear suspension quickly; smaller wheel bearings, UJs as driveshafts/upper links and once play develops you can feel it in the car. But the real Achilles heel is the gearchange; how Toyota can make an MR2 with a decent change and yet Lotus made such a mess of the Europa is beyond me, even allowing for the earlier time frame of the Europa. Be aware of it on your first test drive because it does take some getting used to. The Elan, in contrast, has a very modern feel to the controls.
Maybe because Elans are more expensive the parts availability is probably better and there are more upgrades; rubber donuts replaced with CV joints for example. As a warning, the original 5sp Europa gearboxes were made of un-obtainium back in the 80s and most folks end up using a more modern Renault gearbox conversion when it goes wrong.
If you are buying for fun on the odd sunny day, SWMBO doesn't like struggling to get in cars and there's no budget constraints, then a dhc Elan. If you want (IMO) the best 60s Lotus handling and something to use on the odd motorway trip, then a TC Europa. But with the Europa it must be a good one, top-end prices.
As a wildcard, and often cheaper than either a good Europa or Elan, how about the Elan +2 ? Better handling than the 2-seater elan, a bit slower but much more practical to live with ?
Brian
I fell in love with the Europa as a boy, and finally acquired a very original Special last year. I have never been a fan of the Elan's looks, but I don't really like any car with trapdoor headlamps, as I think that they make the car look blind (I might make an exception for 1980s Ferraris).
The Europa gearshift is a pain, especially at town speeds. On the open road, it is probably the best car that I have ever driven.
The Europa gearshift is a pain, especially at town speeds. On the open road, it is probably the best car that I have ever driven.
re: the gearchange on the Europa. Yes it can get rather sloppy. If you do drive one which feels really sloppy/stirring a bucket of coal, then the solution is probably quite simple. There are 2 things to look at. On the 4-speed you need to look at the bracket holding where the front & rear links joint. The manual says that the positioning/distance must be X" - if not then you'll have difficulty engaging gear. Adjustment is simple - read the manual. Same for the 5-speed although the setup is different. And different again if someone's swapped-in an NG3 gearbox, depending on how they've done it. The other culprit is an innocuous looking little piece of shaped metal called the reverse detent. This gives the shift mechanism it's "H" pattern and prevents excessive sideways slop. Again read the manual on how to ensure correct fitting. And it's location is different depending on whether 4 or 5 speed. Both things are easy to spot on a test drive (and even fix there and then or knock the price down a bit!) I managed to get mine (TC 4-spd) to have a good gearchange and checking those things 2 or 3 times a year kept me free from any slop. There are also a couple of washers on the joint at the base of gear lever and it's a good idea to check the condition of those as well (but mouch more tricky as you either need to work within the frame tunnel or withdraw the whole lot from the back of the car). You won't get a nice bolt-action style of gear change, but you should be able to get a satisfying clunk-clunk type of change without ending up putting your shoulder or wrist out!
PS if the doors are dropping/loose at the hinge - then apparently that's a right b*gg*r to fix ;-)
PS if the doors are dropping/loose at the hinge - then apparently that's a right b*gg*r to fix ;-)
Edited by 72EuropaTC on Tuesday 21st June 15:01
A full house
Europa super style little car a little pain to maintain but when sorted super , can be a little noisy looking in the mirror and seeing a heat wave rising from the back can be scary even with lagged fuel tanks . Forget the rear boot it will pick up smells from engine. The gear change ( linkage ) can be a problem . I have had S2 , twin cam and special . I prefer the body of the twin cam / special compared to the S2 better vis to the side at the back , and the twin tanks . A S2 with the TX motor rather than the TL that is well sorted is a reliable animal. Women dont seem to like them because of the high sill , the center dash below the main dash winders and ashtray can look tired and out of place in black plastic . Number plates are a constant source of problems the cabin can get stuffy as the cooling system runs through the center.
Elan Baby Again a super little car , I have issues with door hinges and nylon hinges never seem to be correct .My favorite is a S3 SE from the 66 , 67 era , all the usual problems water pump , electrics ,light pods but they are so nice to drive ( on normal wheels and normal tyres ) dash can be limited but be honest the design is so pretty and functional a center pea shooter exhaust it is just a pure classic .
Elan +2 the odd one , when well sorted is a dream , I have had 4 and 5 speed and prefer the 4 speed just feels more together . They are bigger than they look and capable of a 200 mile trip without needing the red cross to extract you at the end of the trip. I really like the deep dash as seen on the old rothomans adverts . Again pop up lights , handbrake cause problems .
All of them , these cars are all superb motors but they are 40 years old and had every tom dick and harry with mole grips trying to keep them going . Treat them with respect find the correct parts and someomne who knows about weber / dellorto / stromberg rather than a scruffy kid and a laptop , find someone who knows about glassfibre bodywork when well sorted it looks the buisness wrong paint wrong filler you have problems .
A lot of people complain abound the twink motor , again it just needs the correct care its in a very small space quite stresed and will get warm .
Even more people complain about the electrics , I have had the most bizzare problems that should be impossible , now I have a solution find all your ground points all the black cables and check them every 2 or 3 months. They are in odd places but the problems they can cause will make you weep / laugh / scream.
Finally they are all super cars from the 60,70s , they are all fun and the only way you will decide is to have a test drive of a well sorted version of each of them . Treat it with respect care and attention it will go forever , parts are not expensive once you find a good supplier when compared to moden cars and the nice thing is most you can do yourself with a decent set of AF spanners and time. Get a quick cheap repair and it will come back and bite you hard.
Europa super style little car a little pain to maintain but when sorted super , can be a little noisy looking in the mirror and seeing a heat wave rising from the back can be scary even with lagged fuel tanks . Forget the rear boot it will pick up smells from engine. The gear change ( linkage ) can be a problem . I have had S2 , twin cam and special . I prefer the body of the twin cam / special compared to the S2 better vis to the side at the back , and the twin tanks . A S2 with the TX motor rather than the TL that is well sorted is a reliable animal. Women dont seem to like them because of the high sill , the center dash below the main dash winders and ashtray can look tired and out of place in black plastic . Number plates are a constant source of problems the cabin can get stuffy as the cooling system runs through the center.
Elan Baby Again a super little car , I have issues with door hinges and nylon hinges never seem to be correct .My favorite is a S3 SE from the 66 , 67 era , all the usual problems water pump , electrics ,light pods but they are so nice to drive ( on normal wheels and normal tyres ) dash can be limited but be honest the design is so pretty and functional a center pea shooter exhaust it is just a pure classic .
Elan +2 the odd one , when well sorted is a dream , I have had 4 and 5 speed and prefer the 4 speed just feels more together . They are bigger than they look and capable of a 200 mile trip without needing the red cross to extract you at the end of the trip. I really like the deep dash as seen on the old rothomans adverts . Again pop up lights , handbrake cause problems .
All of them , these cars are all superb motors but they are 40 years old and had every tom dick and harry with mole grips trying to keep them going . Treat them with respect find the correct parts and someomne who knows about weber / dellorto / stromberg rather than a scruffy kid and a laptop , find someone who knows about glassfibre bodywork when well sorted it looks the buisness wrong paint wrong filler you have problems .
A lot of people complain abound the twink motor , again it just needs the correct care its in a very small space quite stresed and will get warm .
Even more people complain about the electrics , I have had the most bizzare problems that should be impossible , now I have a solution find all your ground points all the black cables and check them every 2 or 3 months. They are in odd places but the problems they can cause will make you weep / laugh / scream.
Finally they are all super cars from the 60,70s , they are all fun and the only way you will decide is to have a test drive of a well sorted version of each of them . Treat it with respect care and attention it will go forever , parts are not expensive once you find a good supplier when compared to moden cars and the nice thing is most you can do yourself with a decent set of AF spanners and time. Get a quick cheap repair and it will come back and bite you hard.
That is a very helpful post, thanks.
I have not, so far, found overheating to be a problem with my Europa Special. The book reminds me to rev the engine to 1500-2000 when in traffic, to circulate coolant (the radiator is miles from the engine). The fuel piping arrangement is a bit dodgy. Mine curently needs a new widget to connect the pipes from the twin tanks. I like the twin cam engine - it is rorty and lusty, but the exhaust note is nothing special. I think that I currently have some excessive play in my gear linkages, and will have a look underneath when I get some time.
Electrics - for a while my car kept blowing the fuse which protects the rev counter, fuel and temperature gauges, brake lights and indicators. I had some rewiring dome while the engine was out for top end work, and the electrics have behaved themselves since then, although finding a new window motor when one failed took a while.
One of the very rare coachbuilt Elan estates lives near me - it looks great in light metallic blue and carries a family of four around.
I have not, so far, found overheating to be a problem with my Europa Special. The book reminds me to rev the engine to 1500-2000 when in traffic, to circulate coolant (the radiator is miles from the engine). The fuel piping arrangement is a bit dodgy. Mine curently needs a new widget to connect the pipes from the twin tanks. I like the twin cam engine - it is rorty and lusty, but the exhaust note is nothing special. I think that I currently have some excessive play in my gear linkages, and will have a look underneath when I get some time.
Electrics - for a while my car kept blowing the fuse which protects the rev counter, fuel and temperature gauges, brake lights and indicators. I had some rewiring dome while the engine was out for top end work, and the electrics have behaved themselves since then, although finding a new window motor when one failed took a while.
One of the very rare coachbuilt Elan estates lives near me - it looks great in light metallic blue and carries a family of four around.
Edited by Breadvan73 on Tuesday 28th June 17:50
Feeeel the power of the Europaforce dragging you in....
Seriously though, you are right. Elans are fab, and Europas are fab. This is partly because, of course, all Lotuses are fab. If you really want the drophead style, the Elan wins. Most of us are probably average drivers and wont be able to tell which of an Elan or a Europa with similar engines is faster from A to B. If you are a super ace, the Europa will reward you more, as it has the edge in grip and handling. Both have style and kerb appeal in abundance. Neither is particularly expensive to keep on the road. Europas are probably a rarer sight than Elans. Elans, especially Plus Twos, may be a tad more practical than Europas (packing a Europa for a weekend away with the blonde in a is a dark art, especially if the blonde insists on having 97 outfits and shoes to match for even the shortest of trips). You know what I would choose, but it's up to you!
Seriously though, you are right. Elans are fab, and Europas are fab. This is partly because, of course, all Lotuses are fab. If you really want the drophead style, the Elan wins. Most of us are probably average drivers and wont be able to tell which of an Elan or a Europa with similar engines is faster from A to B. If you are a super ace, the Europa will reward you more, as it has the edge in grip and handling. Both have style and kerb appeal in abundance. Neither is particularly expensive to keep on the road. Europas are probably a rarer sight than Elans. Elans, especially Plus Twos, may be a tad more practical than Europas (packing a Europa for a weekend away with the blonde in a is a dark art, especially if the blonde insists on having 97 outfits and shoes to match for even the shortest of trips). You know what I would choose, but it's up to you!
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