I need some help
Discussion
I've recently started a new job with a new company and have had a shocking conversation today that I really need some help with. Basically, this is the story in bullet points:
In my old job, my title (as far as I knew), was 'Manager',
New job is 'Assistant Manager' (took a voluntary drop, closer to home, still more money etc),
Old company's HR has now submitted a reference stating I was a 'Team Leader',
New company are now on about 'breach of confidence' and 'abuse of trust' saying that, essentially, I lied my way through an interview just to get the job.
I'm absolutely gutted, I love my job and thought I was doing pretty well (they've just offered me ~£2500 a year to do a financial qualification). Now I'm getting told that I'm in for an 'informal' (whatever that means) discussion with HR next Tuesday in which I need to prove that I was a 'Manager' and not a 'Team Leader'. I've been told that, although this is an 'informal' (that bloody word again) meeting, unless I can show that I haven't BS'd my way into the job, it will go to a more formal (assuming they mean gross misconduct) hearing at which Termination would be an option (and a likelihood IMO).
How the hell can I prove I was anything if the old companies HR team say I wasn't. I have no contract from the old place (neither do they), I have no correspondence that would have this information on it.
It's basically my word against that of a multi-national HR department. I think I'm f
ked and I'm absolutely cacking it.
Any idea's on if I can do anything, or had I better go in with my resignation on Tuesday?
In my old job, my title (as far as I knew), was 'Manager',
New job is 'Assistant Manager' (took a voluntary drop, closer to home, still more money etc),
Old company's HR has now submitted a reference stating I was a 'Team Leader',
New company are now on about 'breach of confidence' and 'abuse of trust' saying that, essentially, I lied my way through an interview just to get the job.
I'm absolutely gutted, I love my job and thought I was doing pretty well (they've just offered me ~£2500 a year to do a financial qualification). Now I'm getting told that I'm in for an 'informal' (whatever that means) discussion with HR next Tuesday in which I need to prove that I was a 'Manager' and not a 'Team Leader'. I've been told that, although this is an 'informal' (that bloody word again) meeting, unless I can show that I haven't BS'd my way into the job, it will go to a more formal (assuming they mean gross misconduct) hearing at which Termination would be an option (and a likelihood IMO).
How the hell can I prove I was anything if the old companies HR team say I wasn't. I have no contract from the old place (neither do they), I have no correspondence that would have this information on it.
It's basically my word against that of a multi-national HR department. I think I'm f
ked and I'm absolutely cacking it.Any idea's on if I can do anything, or had I better go in with my resignation on Tuesday?
Unfortunately, the job title isn't on my payslip, just the company name plus the normal tax bits.
I have left a message for the previous employers HR dept, but I don't hold out much hope of getting any help from them. It is a huge global company (10,000+ employee's in UK alone) so the HR dept are notorious for just doing what they have to do and nothing else above. My thinking (and I'll have to wait for a call back from them to confirm this) is that they have 'Team Leader' on their systems from somewhere, that's why they put this on the reference, so they will simply give me a 'well that's what you were then' kind of answer.
I don't have an old job spec either. That was one of my bugbears when I was there - I covered a few 'leavers' (redundancies) jobs too so I think it was in their interest not to give me a spec otherwise they may have had to renumerate me for the roles I covered too (not that I would have asked for this though).
My main concern now is that I've just been incredibly niaive and am going to suffer from my own stupidity. I'm starting to doubt that my old title was ever 'Manager' and that, just because I was referred to as 'Manager' by all and sundry (my team, my boss, their boss, Directors), it just stuck with me. If this is the case and I have just been a 'tard, I have absolutely no way of proving that it was not intentionally misleading (which it absolutely was not) and I may as well go and beg for their mercy now.
I'm a genuinely honest bloke, I have fallen on my own sword more than once in the past when I've made a fk up, but I seriously don't think this is a fk up, and I know it's not an intentional lie, I just need to find a way of proving it.
I have left a message for the previous employers HR dept, but I don't hold out much hope of getting any help from them. It is a huge global company (10,000+ employee's in UK alone) so the HR dept are notorious for just doing what they have to do and nothing else above. My thinking (and I'll have to wait for a call back from them to confirm this) is that they have 'Team Leader' on their systems from somewhere, that's why they put this on the reference, so they will simply give me a 'well that's what you were then' kind of answer.
I don't have an old job spec either. That was one of my bugbears when I was there - I covered a few 'leavers' (redundancies) jobs too so I think it was in their interest not to give me a spec otherwise they may have had to renumerate me for the roles I covered too (not that I would have asked for this though).
My main concern now is that I've just been incredibly niaive and am going to suffer from my own stupidity. I'm starting to doubt that my old title was ever 'Manager' and that, just because I was referred to as 'Manager' by all and sundry (my team, my boss, their boss, Directors), it just stuck with me. If this is the case and I have just been a 'tard, I have absolutely no way of proving that it was not intentionally misleading (which it absolutely was not) and I may as well go and beg for their mercy now.
I'm a genuinely honest bloke, I have fallen on my own sword more than once in the past when I've made a f
k up, but I seriously don't think this is a fk up, and I know it's not an intentional lie, I just need to find a way of proving it.do you have any payrise letters, any old work benefits like health care etc which had been sent to your home address/work address with your title?
Were you ever a team leader at your old employer? Can you explain you were promoted from position x to Manager in 20XX?
Did you leave on good terms - quick fix would be an email/telephone call from your old boss confirming your job title. I know I would comply with this request from a former employee regardless!
Matt
Were you ever a team leader at your old employer? Can you explain you were promoted from position x to Manager in 20XX?
Did you leave on good terms - quick fix would be an email/telephone call from your old boss confirming your job title. I know I would comply with this request from a former employee regardless!
Matt
cheers guys.
My old boss and I got on really well inside and outside of work. He has sent a personal reference to my new company that states 'Manager' and is absolutely glowing (HR showed me it today) but they won't accept it as (and I quote from memory) 'it's possible I could be in collusion with him'. He couldn't do a professional reference as the HR department won't let anyone do so (I think this is pretty normal though).
Could this be a case of wanting to get rid of me and clutching at straws? I'm starting to think it is. It's a filthy way of doing it if it is. I've had no performance management, no discussions voicing any concerns, not even a 'could try harder'. I'm still in probation period (ends on 4th July, coincidence?) so shirley it would be a case of 'it's not working out, have a nice life'?
Could be the drink having a pessimistic effect on me though.... (I'm not working tomorrow btw!)
My old boss and I got on really well inside and outside of work. He has sent a personal reference to my new company that states 'Manager' and is absolutely glowing (HR showed me it today) but they won't accept it as (and I quote from memory) 'it's possible I could be in collusion with him'. He couldn't do a professional reference as the HR department won't let anyone do so (I think this is pretty normal though).
Could this be a case of wanting to get rid of me and clutching at straws? I'm starting to think it is. It's a filthy way of doing it if it is. I've had no performance management, no discussions voicing any concerns, not even a 'could try harder'. I'm still in probation period (ends on 4th July, coincidence?) so shirley it would be a case of 'it's not working out, have a nice life'?
Could be the drink having a pessimistic effect on me though.... (I'm not working tomorrow btw!)
russ_a said:
If you are doing a good job I very much doubt your new manager would want to see you go over a job title.
What is the difference between Team Leader and Manager?
I really hope you're right, and I think deep down, I know you are right. It probably is just me being a pessimist about it all, but that's how I'm feeling at the mo!What is the difference between Team Leader and Manager?
In my eyes, a TL looks after a sub-team in a larger team, so instead of having 40 direct reports, the manager would have 4 team leads with 9 direct reports each (good example would be a large sales team). A Manager, however, reports into the 'Head Of' or someone who has overall ownership of more than one team - just what I was in my old role. My boss looked after a Finance department (Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Cash Operations and one other) and I was the Manager of the Accounts Payable Team. My boss then reported into the FD.
In my companies eyes though, god knows!
Job titles are often very arbitrary so if you've been honest about what you did in your previous job then you should be able to talk your way out of this. If you've been in the new post a few weeks then surely they can base their opinion of your work on what they have seen, rather than the detached statement from HR confirming they paid you for xxx years and recorded you on their system as a general skivvy or whatever.
It sounds like your new company are looking for an excuse to get rid of you. If something like this crossed my desk regarding a recent hire I wouldn't consider taking it further if I was happy with the new person.
Are you in a union? If so get their advice and take them along, otherwise I suggest you to seek legal advice and take someone with you to the meeting (even a friend/co-worker) for support.
Are you in a union? If so get their advice and take them along, otherwise I suggest you to seek legal advice and take someone with you to the meeting (even a friend/co-worker) for support.
There are no hard and fast legal definitions as to what specific job titles actually mean. Different businesses will use different terminology for various tasks.
Your new employer is either being deliberately antagonistic - or is perhaps being rather stupid.
The important thing is WHAT your role with your previous employer was, not what they referred to you as. As long as you explained truthfully to your new employer what you did and what your responsibilities were in your previous job, then they have nothing against you.
Your new employer is either being deliberately antagonistic - or is perhaps being rather stupid.
The important thing is WHAT your role with your previous employer was, not what they referred to you as. As long as you explained truthfully to your new employer what you did and what your responsibilities were in your previous job, then they have nothing against you.
Ask them what they see as the difference between a "Team Leader" and "Assistant Manager" - what specific skills / qualities do they think are different, and do they actually think that you do not have them? I would assume that their interview process assessed you as a good match for their Job Description It sounds like some serious hair splitting going on.
Is there a significant difference in the numbers of people reporting to you now, compared to your old job, are the responsibilities similar - budgets, targets, employee dicipline etc i.e is this new job a bigger step up from your old job than would be considered reasonable.
I cannot see how they think you would be in collusion with your previous manager regarding your job description - what has he got to gain?
Also some companies have a different culture - nobody is a "Manager" as you are all in the same "team" etc so suggest that they review their Diversity and Inclusivness policy
Is there a significant difference in the numbers of people reporting to you now, compared to your old job, are the responsibilities similar - budgets, targets, employee dicipline etc i.e is this new job a bigger step up from your old job than would be considered reasonable.
I cannot see how they think you would be in collusion with your previous manager regarding your job description - what has he got to gain?
Also some companies have a different culture - nobody is a "Manager" as you are all in the same "team" etc so suggest that they review their Diversity and Inclusivness policy
Edited by Burrow01 on Friday 24th June 10:12
Job titles are a funny thing, it depends where you go and what type of work you are in, especially with new titles being banded about in the last 10 years in line with terms like 'blue sky thinking'. My mum was a staff nurse but got a promotion to become a 'team leader' this role used to be called 'sister' which was basically the ward manager, but as NHS managers wore a suit nowadays and did the admin, the sisters became team leaders to differentiate them, but still do the same job.
I was a QHSE co-ordinator in my last job, and i managed the training schedules and completed the quality audits foir the workplace, in my new place i am doing the exact same job but also do H&S and enviro system audits as well, but am called the HSE Manager. However i can't be a manager as i have no control over budgets and njo direct subordinates, i just oversee and advise on HSE matters, but i do have responsibility to hand out disciplinaries (though this is a bit of a grey area). I think i was called the HSE manager so it looks like i have responsibility if something went wrong, i could be blamed as being the responsible person, where as a HSE advisor\coordinator would not have such responsibility, in the end such responsibility will always lie with the MD etc going by law.
In your instance, they are splitting hairs, especially given your ex boss has given you a glowing reference, what if you and your old boss didn't get on or left on bad terms, if he gave a reference saying you were a waste of space would they claim you were in 'collusion' then? I would try and have a chat with your new boss, see if he is happy with your work, as he must have had a say in when you were hired, as HR wont be the ones makiung the decisio to hire people as they wont know if a person is any good in that role, they should just deal with the employment aspects once you are there.
Also keep a record of wht exactly they think you lied about, did you lie about what you had done previously, what your duties were, your skills, qualifications etc etc, if you didn't, they are making a bad situation for themselves, exspecially if the place has a union, i would be approaching a rep and asking advice, as they can't rail road you out if you weer honest, but their interpretation of 'manager' differs from yours. Also as they actually did employ you in the first place, they took their bloody time thinking team leader and manager were different and thus not what they wanted!
Chin up, it could all be a simple 'informal' chat where they ask you some questions about your previous work and they smooth it over
I was a QHSE co-ordinator in my last job, and i managed the training schedules and completed the quality audits foir the workplace, in my new place i am doing the exact same job but also do H&S and enviro system audits as well, but am called the HSE Manager. However i can't be a manager as i have no control over budgets and njo direct subordinates, i just oversee and advise on HSE matters, but i do have responsibility to hand out disciplinaries (though this is a bit of a grey area). I think i was called the HSE manager so it looks like i have responsibility if something went wrong, i could be blamed as being the responsible person, where as a HSE advisor\coordinator would not have such responsibility, in the end such responsibility will always lie with the MD etc going by law.
In your instance, they are splitting hairs, especially given your ex boss has given you a glowing reference, what if you and your old boss didn't get on or left on bad terms, if he gave a reference saying you were a waste of space would they claim you were in 'collusion' then? I would try and have a chat with your new boss, see if he is happy with your work, as he must have had a say in when you were hired, as HR wont be the ones makiung the decisio to hire people as they wont know if a person is any good in that role, they should just deal with the employment aspects once you are there.
Also keep a record of wht exactly they think you lied about, did you lie about what you had done previously, what your duties were, your skills, qualifications etc etc, if you didn't, they are making a bad situation for themselves, exspecially if the place has a union, i would be approaching a rep and asking advice, as they can't rail road you out if you weer honest, but their interpretation of 'manager' differs from yours. Also as they actually did employ you in the first place, they took their bloody time thinking team leader and manager were different and thus not what they wanted!
Chin up, it could all be a simple 'informal' chat where they ask you some questions about your previous work and they smooth it over
My old company haven't advertised my old role as the team and my job have now moved to an Indian outsourcing centre so there is no role there anymore (that was why I moved).
I've just got back from a lads weekend away and have a few drunken moments to reflect on the situation and where it leaves me, both personally and professionally.
My word is my bond and I never, ever break it, no matter what. I would have hoped that my new company would have had this demonstrated to them, yet they still think it is right to take things further - I think that answers all of the questions in my mind and is perhaps a more pertinent point than the actual sitation itself.
I'm still off work tomorrow on A/L so I'm going to be going back up to my old company and speaking with the FD there about rejoining. I had 5 very pleasant years with the company, they didn't pay fantastically well, but I never had my integrity called into question and that means more to me than most things.
Just to add, thank you so much for everyones help on here. I've been feeling like a bit of a fk up since this happened, but you guys have been genuinely helpful and it's made me feel a hell of a lot better about the whole thing. CHEERS!!!
I've just got back from a lads weekend away and have a few drunken moments to reflect on the situation and where it leaves me, both personally and professionally.
My word is my bond and I never, ever break it, no matter what. I would have hoped that my new company would have had this demonstrated to them, yet they still think it is right to take things further - I think that answers all of the questions in my mind and is perhaps a more pertinent point than the actual sitation itself.
I'm still off work tomorrow on A/L so I'm going to be going back up to my old company and speaking with the FD there about rejoining. I had 5 very pleasant years with the company, they didn't pay fantastically well, but I never had my integrity called into question and that means more to me than most things.
Just to add, thank you so much for everyones help on here. I've been feeling like a bit of a f
k up since this happened, but you guys have been genuinely helpful and it's made me feel a hell of a lot better about the whole thing. CHEERS!!!Don't let one pen pushing numpty in HR shift your career choice.
In my mind, there is minimal difference between a team leader and a manager. Providing you can evidence, through interview and examples where you have held management responsibility for people (either at a task, conflict, issue management level or at a HR/pay/rations level, or both) then it is hard to see their issue.
The only caveat I would add to that is that if they specified somewhere that you needed particular management experience (eg, in team development and formal review cycles) and your previous job didn't include that, but included everything else.
I'd suggest pushing your hiring manager hard for them to explain the gap. No new employer that I have ever seen has ever asked for a role description of the previous job.... which seems to be what they want.
In my mind, there is minimal difference between a team leader and a manager. Providing you can evidence, through interview and examples where you have held management responsibility for people (either at a task, conflict, issue management level or at a HR/pay/rations level, or both) then it is hard to see their issue.
The only caveat I would add to that is that if they specified somewhere that you needed particular management experience (eg, in team development and formal review cycles) and your previous job didn't include that, but included everything else.
I'd suggest pushing your hiring manager hard for them to explain the gap. No new employer that I have ever seen has ever asked for a role description of the previous job.... which seems to be what they want.
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