Training Contract
Discussion
Hi Guys
I have been looking for a training contract for around 5 years now I have worked in the legal sector for about 3 years but still no one will offer me a training contract.
I have a 2.1 law degree and a commendation on my LPC.
I have got experience in defamation, civil litigation and professional negligence as well as a bit of clinical negligence all of which are considered "good" area's of law and to be fair I probably do the work of a grade B fee earner but for some reason I just cant seem to even get an interview. Are training contracts that rare?
I'm lucky in the sense that I have been in work in this time but I spent four years of my life in uni and LPC so the ultimate goal is to get qualified but it just doesnt seem to be happening.
I sometimes think that it may be because of the recession as I hit the job market at the peak of the recession just unlucky but surely not that unlucky.
Its seems a lot of law firms seem to be abusing the LPC grads with the carrot of a training contract but effectivly just using them for low cost labour and having a few qualified guys to sign off the work.
I really want to stay in the North West as I have a young family and also have strong links to the area so moving South is really out the question.
A lot of people in the industry say its who you know not what you know and this saying does seem to ring true.
I know there are a lot of legal guys out there so I was wondering if any one could give me some pointers or even know of any firms that are looking for a trainee.
As I said I am lucky that I am financialy secure but I really just want to qualify.
Any advice/help is appreciated.
I have been looking for a training contract for around 5 years now I have worked in the legal sector for about 3 years but still no one will offer me a training contract.
I have a 2.1 law degree and a commendation on my LPC.
I have got experience in defamation, civil litigation and professional negligence as well as a bit of clinical negligence all of which are considered "good" area's of law and to be fair I probably do the work of a grade B fee earner but for some reason I just cant seem to even get an interview. Are training contracts that rare?
I'm lucky in the sense that I have been in work in this time but I spent four years of my life in uni and LPC so the ultimate goal is to get qualified but it just doesnt seem to be happening.
I sometimes think that it may be because of the recession as I hit the job market at the peak of the recession just unlucky but surely not that unlucky.
Its seems a lot of law firms seem to be abusing the LPC grads with the carrot of a training contract but effectivly just using them for low cost labour and having a few qualified guys to sign off the work.
I really want to stay in the North West as I have a young family and also have strong links to the area so moving South is really out the question.
A lot of people in the industry say its who you know not what you know and this saying does seem to ring true.
I know there are a lot of legal guys out there so I was wondering if any one could give me some pointers or even know of any firms that are looking for a trainee.
As I said I am lucky that I am financialy secure but I really just want to qualify.
Any advice/help is appreciated.
5 years of looking without any offers does seem very unlucky. Have you not even been invited to interview? How many applications have you made? When you say you're working in the legal sector now, are you in private practice?
In my experience (started Uni in 1996, worked part-time as a paralegal from 1997, qualified 2003) training contracts weren't rare, but the competition to get one was always very high. I expect it's even worse now and am sure you've hit the nail on the head re firms using LPC grads to do higher grade work (particularly if it's bulk litigation like RTA/PI), charge accordingly, but pay the staff peanuts. This has always been the case, but with qualified solicitors left, right & centre being made redundant in recent years, the practice is probably reaching epidemic proportions now.
I guess with a young family you can't really offer to work anywhere for free (whilst at Uni, I wrote to literally every firm in the local area, saying I wanted part-time work and was happy to do it for free, to get the experience. After doing a couple of months of Fri afternoons, I was then offered paid part-time work, then full-time during college holidays, then a training contract) but have you sent your CV to all and sundry?
Depending on the work you're currently doing, it might be frowned upon to blatantly advertise to potential competitors that you're looking for another job, but if it's specifically a training contract you're asking for and there's no prospect of getting one where you are then maybe it won't cause such a problem.
Is there a particular reason why your current employers can't help you? - Or are you one of many there in the same boat?
I see you're based in the North West, are you a commutable distance from (say) Liverpool/Manchester? There are some big firms there who will have details of their trainee recruitment procedures on their websites, though historically they tended to recruit a year in advance. What about the Law Society, as an LPC graduate I assume you remain a junior member, have they any info?
It might also be worth checking out the Roll on Friday forums, there's no end of talking (b!tching) about recruitment done there, though it does tend to have a Southern bias.
Good luck.
In my experience (started Uni in 1996, worked part-time as a paralegal from 1997, qualified 2003) training contracts weren't rare, but the competition to get one was always very high. I expect it's even worse now and am sure you've hit the nail on the head re firms using LPC grads to do higher grade work (particularly if it's bulk litigation like RTA/PI), charge accordingly, but pay the staff peanuts. This has always been the case, but with qualified solicitors left, right & centre being made redundant in recent years, the practice is probably reaching epidemic proportions now.
I guess with a young family you can't really offer to work anywhere for free (whilst at Uni, I wrote to literally every firm in the local area, saying I wanted part-time work and was happy to do it for free, to get the experience. After doing a couple of months of Fri afternoons, I was then offered paid part-time work, then full-time during college holidays, then a training contract) but have you sent your CV to all and sundry?
Depending on the work you're currently doing, it might be frowned upon to blatantly advertise to potential competitors that you're looking for another job, but if it's specifically a training contract you're asking for and there's no prospect of getting one where you are then maybe it won't cause such a problem.
Is there a particular reason why your current employers can't help you? - Or are you one of many there in the same boat?
I see you're based in the North West, are you a commutable distance from (say) Liverpool/Manchester? There are some big firms there who will have details of their trainee recruitment procedures on their websites, though historically they tended to recruit a year in advance. What about the Law Society, as an LPC graduate I assume you remain a junior member, have they any info?
It might also be worth checking out the Roll on Friday forums, there's no end of talking (b!tching) about recruitment done there, though it does tend to have a Southern bias.
Good luck.
Thanks for the response Spacecowboy.
I have made loads of applications gotten interviews but have always been told Im the second best candidate or that they have recruited internally.
I have worked for a big firm in manchester who went bust and I was made redundant in the recession but again they always tend to recruit externally . I always apply within a 40-50mile radius of where I live.
I worked for free for a sole pratitioner and that didnt end well three months and no expense and was told that the fact that i told her in a conversation that people think the industry is not as glamorous as people think got me the boot.
I was then in a firm where I was probably on the verge of being offered a training contract but internal politics meant that the department was shut down and my principal was marched out of the premises.
Im not currently in a law firm just an inhouse paralegal so no chance here but as I said I can't complain as I am in work.
But as said my luck is really bad as I can get jobs in the legal sector and am good at what I do just not get the training contract.
As you said a lot of solicitors have been made redundant so the market is feirce.
I have made loads of applications gotten interviews but have always been told Im the second best candidate or that they have recruited internally.
I have worked for a big firm in manchester who went bust and I was made redundant in the recession but again they always tend to recruit externally . I always apply within a 40-50mile radius of where I live.
I worked for free for a sole pratitioner and that didnt end well three months and no expense and was told that the fact that i told her in a conversation that people think the industry is not as glamorous as people think got me the boot.
I was then in a firm where I was probably on the verge of being offered a training contract but internal politics meant that the department was shut down and my principal was marched out of the premises.
Im not currently in a law firm just an inhouse paralegal so no chance here but as I said I can't complain as I am in work.
But as said my luck is really bad as I can get jobs in the legal sector and am good at what I do just not get the training contract.
As you said a lot of solicitors have been made redundant so the market is feirce.
johnnybegood said:
As you said a lot of solicitors have been made redundant so the market is feirce.
Including me. Whilst your situation's not ideal and you've put in a lot of work to try to get to where you want to be, just having a job right now in your chosen profession (albeit at a different level) is a lot more than many others have. I spent 6 months out of the system between late 2009/early 2010 due to redundancy and it was a very hard few months, which I spent as a taxi driver rather than relying on state handouts.
As for being told you were 2nd choice, that might turn out ok. I was interviewed for a job I really wanted in early 2010 and was told I didn't get it, but was 2nd choice. I was gutted; being 2nd doesn't pay the mortgage, I assumed they'd only told me I was 2nd to make me feel better, I had no other job applications in the pipeline and it looked like my taxi driving career was destined to run.
3 months later, I got a phone call from them asking if I was still available, another position had come up, they had retained my details and I was their first choice. They didn't even ask me to interview again, I was straight in. Last taxi shift Saturday 17th April 2010, I started here on Monday 19th and am fast-approaching 1.5 years now.
All I can suggest is that, whilst continuing to look for other jobs in the usual places, you keep your head down and try to make yourself stand out with your current employers for all the right reasons. If possible, try to build up good links with other people in the profession that you come into regular contact with, because you never know when they or someone they know might be looking and your name could crop up - when I was in Northampton I once got an unsolicited job offer from a firm in Portsmouth, having not long settled a horribly protracted litigation against their Defendant client!
Firstly, have you tried attending any networking or annual events to get to meet people and market yourself for the appointments you're after? Are you on LinkedIn? Have you had your CV and interview technique rigorously assessed? Have you considered relocating?
I would say after all this time, to simply carry on trying and hoping things will get better is not going to be a viable strategy. You may need to change something in your approach significantly if you hope to make any improvements in your chances. Good luck!
I would say after all this time, to simply carry on trying and hoping things will get better is not going to be a viable strategy. You may need to change something in your approach significantly if you hope to make any improvements in your chances. Good luck!
Thanks for the advice rog.
Moving out of the north west just isnt an option. I think I would have a break down.
Not on linkedin do employers look for possible employees on it?
I have not attended networking events or such like as the ones I have the young trainees tend to look down on the legal assistants and it feels like your begging for them to throw you a bone I do want to keep some integrity.
But desparate times do demand desparate measures :-(
Spacecowboy good to hear you back in work I do commend you for taking to the taxi's I also worked as a day labourer when out of work so I know your pain.
But sometimes it is luck being in the right place right time if your face fits or someone just takes a shining to you.
Its hard to get a break.
I think I have limited my options a bit as I have never done PI/RTA as thats massive but I just dont want to go into it as I can only say I have tasted the "high life" having worked in defamation and professional negligence, going into RTA would send me mental.
I really feel for people who are trying to get into the industry as universities and law colleges dangle the carrot like they are guarenteed to get training contracts but its simply not the case the LPCc cost 12k plus the 18k odd for your degree people are in massive debt before they have earned a single penny. It really is a bad time for Law grads and grads in general I think.
Moving out of the north west just isnt an option. I think I would have a break down.
Not on linkedin do employers look for possible employees on it?
I have not attended networking events or such like as the ones I have the young trainees tend to look down on the legal assistants and it feels like your begging for them to throw you a bone I do want to keep some integrity.
But desparate times do demand desparate measures :-(
Spacecowboy good to hear you back in work I do commend you for taking to the taxi's I also worked as a day labourer when out of work so I know your pain.
But sometimes it is luck being in the right place right time if your face fits or someone just takes a shining to you.
Its hard to get a break.
I think I have limited my options a bit as I have never done PI/RTA as thats massive but I just dont want to go into it as I can only say I have tasted the "high life" having worked in defamation and professional negligence, going into RTA would send me mental.
I really feel for people who are trying to get into the industry as universities and law colleges dangle the carrot like they are guarenteed to get training contracts but its simply not the case the LPCc cost 12k plus the 18k odd for your degree people are in massive debt before they have earned a single penny. It really is a bad time for Law grads and grads in general I think.
Got to go and earn some money now but only saw this a minute ago.
The best advice I can give you is to get to know the people who make the decisions at the firms you would like to work for. Ask them if you can have a drink after work, a coffee at lunchtime, whatever.
I knew the things facing me when I first chose to go this route pre GCSEs and, subject to results, effectively had my TC in the bag before I had sat my A-levels. Make sure that they are aware of you and keep yourself in their minds at the appropriate times. Make sure that they are aware that you are not so worried about starting in September/October but that you will start any time and even that you would be happy to wait until one starting in 2013 if they haven't got space.
Above all get yourself out there and known. This is not really a job for people who like to be locked away in back rooms and are concerned about people who, unjustifiably, might talk down to them. Get out there, get yourself known and keep at it. Do it now though because if we took Trainees, even in this market, I would be concerned about why someone was still looking after 5 years, despite being in the industry most of that time...
The best advice I can give you is to get to know the people who make the decisions at the firms you would like to work for. Ask them if you can have a drink after work, a coffee at lunchtime, whatever.
I knew the things facing me when I first chose to go this route pre GCSEs and, subject to results, effectively had my TC in the bag before I had sat my A-levels. Make sure that they are aware of you and keep yourself in their minds at the appropriate times. Make sure that they are aware that you are not so worried about starting in September/October but that you will start any time and even that you would be happy to wait until one starting in 2013 if they haven't got space.
Above all get yourself out there and known. This is not really a job for people who like to be locked away in back rooms and are concerned about people who, unjustifiably, might talk down to them. Get out there, get yourself known and keep at it. Do it now though because if we took Trainees, even in this market, I would be concerned about why someone was still looking after 5 years, despite being in the industry most of that time...
johnnybegood said:
I really feel for people who are trying to get into the industry as universities and law colleges dangle the carrot like they are guarenteed to get training contracts but its simply not the case the LPCc cost 12k plus the 18k odd for your degree people are in massive debt before they have earned a single penny. It really is a bad time for Law grads and grads in general I think.
Very much so but it has always been the same and always will be to some degree.There is no way I would be sitting where I am now if I turned the clock back.
Haven't properly read the thread as, like the Rude-Boy, I should be working.
However, the market is hugely competitive now. Work experience is key, though it looks as though you have quite a lot.
Have you had any TC interviews? What type of firm are you aiming for? Sometimes the best thing is to look at a smaller firm and then build up to a larger firm.
Degree was a 2:1, good stuff, but from where?
Extra curricular activities?
Why can't you move from your current location? That could be an issue in moving forward as you may need to look outside your current locality.
Also, have you thought about jobs outside of the law? Assuming you did a law degree then there are plenty of jobs you could do instead. The longer you aren't a trainee the harder it will be. Also, I think (though not 100% sure) you have to start a TC within a set period of time from when you completed your LPC. You may wish to check that.
Will try and read the thread properly over lunch and add more.
However, the market is hugely competitive now. Work experience is key, though it looks as though you have quite a lot.
Have you had any TC interviews? What type of firm are you aiming for? Sometimes the best thing is to look at a smaller firm and then build up to a larger firm.
Degree was a 2:1, good stuff, but from where?
Extra curricular activities?
Why can't you move from your current location? That could be an issue in moving forward as you may need to look outside your current locality.
Also, have you thought about jobs outside of the law? Assuming you did a law degree then there are plenty of jobs you could do instead. The longer you aren't a trainee the harder it will be. Also, I think (though not 100% sure) you have to start a TC within a set period of time from when you completed your LPC. You may wish to check that.
Will try and read the thread properly over lunch and add more.
Having now read the full thread I will add more to what I said above.
Clearly you have had interviews and that's excellent. What feedback beyond being 2nd choice did you get? Was it related to something you did in the interview or something CV related.
In your current role, do you deal with external firms? If so, look at them as a possible route in. If you get on well with one of the external lawyers you have worked with see what the situation is in regards to roles at their firm. Alternatively, have you discussed a TC with your current employer? If they like you they could organise a bespoke TC where you train mainly with them but do 6 months externally at a firm in order to satisfy the necessary requirements.
Also, you say that as you have tasted the "high life" of Professional Negligence and Defamation you don't think you could do bog standard work. In which case, give up now. If you can get a role at a small firm doing low value PI, family, resi con work etc take it. A TC is a TC. Don't think that because you have done some high level stuff that you are above the lower end work or that you by starting out doing that work you won't be able to practice in the "high life" areas.
Also, listen to Rude-Boy. A long time ago I PM'd him before I went to Law School, when umming and ahhing, and he gave some great advice to me (he won't remember this at all!) and he knows what he is talking about.
Clearly you have had interviews and that's excellent. What feedback beyond being 2nd choice did you get? Was it related to something you did in the interview or something CV related.
In your current role, do you deal with external firms? If so, look at them as a possible route in. If you get on well with one of the external lawyers you have worked with see what the situation is in regards to roles at their firm. Alternatively, have you discussed a TC with your current employer? If they like you they could organise a bespoke TC where you train mainly with them but do 6 months externally at a firm in order to satisfy the necessary requirements.
Also, you say that as you have tasted the "high life" of Professional Negligence and Defamation you don't think you could do bog standard work. In which case, give up now. If you can get a role at a small firm doing low value PI, family, resi con work etc take it. A TC is a TC. Don't think that because you have done some high level stuff that you are above the lower end work or that you by starting out doing that work you won't be able to practice in the "high life" areas.
Also, listen to Rude-Boy. A long time ago I PM'd him before I went to Law School, when umming and ahhing, and he gave some great advice to me (he won't remember this at all!) and he knows what he is talking about.
Iceman82 said:
Also, you say that as you have tasted the "high life" of Professional Negligence and Defamation you don't think you could do bog standard work. In which case, give up now. If you can get a role at a small firm doing low value PI, family, resi con work etc take it. A TC is a TC. Don't think that because you have done some high level stuff that you are above the lower end work or that you by starting out doing that work you won't be able to practice in the "high life" areas.
Also, listen to Rude-Boy. A long time ago I PM'd him before I went to Law School, when umming and ahhing, and he gave some great advice to me (he won't remember this at all!) and he knows what he is talking about.
Listen to this man, for he has learned well Also, listen to Rude-Boy. A long time ago I PM'd him before I went to Law School, when umming and ahhing, and he gave some great advice to me (he won't remember this at all!) and he knows what he is talking about.
- off to check my old e-mails now 
Seriously though never consider anything beneath you, well at least until you reach the dizzy heights (depths?) of the Zod’s and Tonker’s of this World
To give you an idea I’m a salaried partner in a well respected provincial firm with 10 years PQE. This week, amongst other gems, I have bought and sold a number of <£125k flats as well as a few things well over £500k which is strong money round these parts. I have also drafted a whole building lease for a shop worth less than £4kpa rental and completed an option agreement in relation to a 180+ house development site.
Monday just gone I was speaking to an old dear about selling an area of land the size of a single garage to her neighbours and this Monday I have an appointment with a chap about selling 100 acres of farmland.
Nothing is beneath you, although you might be too expensive for the Client.
Oh and if you even give the hint of a wiff of considering a job beneath you there is no chance of a second interview. I had/have zero interest in Criminal and Civil Lit. but there was no way I was going to be straight out about that until after I was well into/had sat those seats.
will_ said:
Rude-boy said:
Seriously though never consider anything beneath you, well at least until you reach the dizzy heights (depths?) of the Zod’s and Tonker’s of this World
How could you miss off old Soovy? Soovy is in a different league altogether.
Don
--
Hi guys thanks for the replies.
I have done quality work and as said probably the little more glamourous stuff but i am a firm believer that beggers cant be choosers and am in debt recovery at the moment. So im not a job snob.
Another thing might be that employers may think I would do a runner if something better comes up or that as I have not really done high street work that I may loose interest and not be up for the job lets face it a trainee is possibly a partner, associate of the future.
As I have said I really dont want to move out of the north west as its just not viable given that I have 3 young children and other family committments. But am willing to travel 50-60 mile commute no problem.
I didnt go to a red brick and I know that this is a big blooper as I should have went as I had an offer but being young went where my mates went big mistake.
My CV is definatley tip top good extra cirricular activities, charity work and interest and not more than 2 pages some good names on their too references are glowing.
One thing I would like to ask is and I know this may sound a bit dubious but could it be a case of does the face fit?
I have
Once again thanks for the replies guys.
I have done quality work and as said probably the little more glamourous stuff but i am a firm believer that beggers cant be choosers and am in debt recovery at the moment. So im not a job snob.
Another thing might be that employers may think I would do a runner if something better comes up or that as I have not really done high street work that I may loose interest and not be up for the job lets face it a trainee is possibly a partner, associate of the future.
As I have said I really dont want to move out of the north west as its just not viable given that I have 3 young children and other family committments. But am willing to travel 50-60 mile commute no problem.
I didnt go to a red brick and I know that this is a big blooper as I should have went as I had an offer but being young went where my mates went big mistake.
My CV is definatley tip top good extra cirricular activities, charity work and interest and not more than 2 pages some good names on their too references are glowing.
One thing I would like to ask is and I know this may sound a bit dubious but could it be a case of does the face fit?
I have
Once again thanks for the replies guys.
johnnybegood said:
Hi guys thanks for the replies.
I have done quality work and as said probably the little more glamourous stuff but i am a firm believer that beggers cant be choosers and am in debt recovery at the moment. So im not a job snob.
Another thing might be that employers may think I would do a runner if something better comes up or that as I have not really done high street work that I may loose interest and not be up for the job lets face it a trainee is possibly a partner, associate of the future.
As I have said I really dont want to move out of the north west as its just not viable given that I have 3 young children and other family committments. But am willing to travel 50-60 mile commute no problem.
I didnt go to a red brick and I know that this is a big blooper as I should have went as I had an offer but being young went where my mates went big mistake.
My CV is definatley tip top good extra cirricular activities, charity work and interest and not more than 2 pages some good names on their too references are glowing.
One thing I would like to ask is and I know this may sound a bit dubious but could it be a case of does the face fit?
I have
Once again thanks for the replies guys.
Ok, can totally understand your reasons for not relocating and good to see you will travel if necessary.I have done quality work and as said probably the little more glamourous stuff but i am a firm believer that beggers cant be choosers and am in debt recovery at the moment. So im not a job snob.
Another thing might be that employers may think I would do a runner if something better comes up or that as I have not really done high street work that I may loose interest and not be up for the job lets face it a trainee is possibly a partner, associate of the future.
As I have said I really dont want to move out of the north west as its just not viable given that I have 3 young children and other family committments. But am willing to travel 50-60 mile commute no problem.
I didnt go to a red brick and I know that this is a big blooper as I should have went as I had an offer but being young went where my mates went big mistake.
My CV is definatley tip top good extra cirricular activities, charity work and interest and not more than 2 pages some good names on their too references are glowing.
One thing I would like to ask is and I know this may sound a bit dubious but could it be a case of does the face fit?
I have
Once again thanks for the replies guys.
What you need to do is show a high street firm, if that's what you get offered, that you WANT to be there no matter what the type of work. Don't give them the reason to say no based on the possibility that you may look elsewhere. Do you have experience in a high street firm (you may have said) but if not get that in the bag as well.
Yes, sometime it is a case as to whether your face fits. What type of feedback are you getting from the interviews you have attended?
I just get that they were impressed but they found a more suitable candidate.
That may just be softening the blow.
I went for an interview with Hill Dicks once and all the other potential trainees were the most beautiful people I had seen I think I should have hit the gym in preparation for the interview and not the books haha.
Also question for the lawyers out there is it possible for joe public to invest in a Law firm or would they have to wait for the legal services act?
That may just be softening the blow.
I went for an interview with Hill Dicks once and all the other potential trainees were the most beautiful people I had seen I think I should have hit the gym in preparation for the interview and not the books haha.
Also question for the lawyers out there is it possible for joe public to invest in a Law firm or would they have to wait for the legal services act?
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