Sinn UX: Nice watch, crappy movement!!
Discussion
Had my Sinn UX for just under a year now and whist I absolutely love the design and style of it, I have to admit that I am really not overly impressed with the movement.
In particular the second hand, which suffers quiet noticeable 'bounce back', and the second had doesn't line up well with the second marks on the face (the degree to this mis-alignment changes as the hand moves round the face).
Am I being overly critical, is it reasonable to expect more from a circa 1500quid watch??
Having seen some mention of this elsewhere with the UX, would I have a valid complaint if i was to pursue it as the watch has done this since new!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3UpzLUtcs
In particular the second hand, which suffers quiet noticeable 'bounce back', and the second had doesn't line up well with the second marks on the face (the degree to this mis-alignment changes as the hand moves round the face).
Am I being overly critical, is it reasonable to expect more from a circa 1500quid watch??
Having seen some mention of this elsewhere with the UX, would I have a valid complaint if i was to pursue it as the watch has done this since new!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3UpzLUtcs
Mine has the well known bounce as well, I think it's a case of "They all do that, Sir" and I don't think you'd get very far if you approached Sinn about it though it would be interesting to hear what they say if you did. It's most notable on the up stroke, after the hand is flicked upwards it then settles back down again, on the flat mine doesn't bounce at all. I'd guess that it has something to do with the fact that the case is oil filled, not too sure on that though.
ETA that it has proven to be extremely accurate. Yes, I know it's quartz, but it's supreme in it's timekeeping and hasn't gained or lost anything at all (to my eye) when I compare it to my atomic G in the time that I've owned it.
ETA that it has proven to be extremely accurate. Yes, I know it's quartz, but it's supreme in it's timekeeping and hasn't gained or lost anything at all (to my eye) when I compare it to my atomic G in the time that I've owned it.
Edited by CardShark on Wednesday 23 November 21:28
Edited by CardShark on Wednesday 23 November 21:29
Sounds like it has summit to do with the stepper motor overshooting!?
Bedtime reading:-
Vibration and Resonance
When a step motor makes a move from one step to the next, the rotor doesn’t immediately stop. The rotor actually passes up its final position (overshoots), then goes past it in the opposite direction (undershoots), then moves back and forth until it finally comes to rest.
We call this “ringing,” and it occurs every time the motor takes a step. In most cases, the motor is commanded to move to the next step before it comes to a rest.
Unloaded, the motor exhibits a fair amount of ringing. This ringing translates into motor vibration. The motor will often stall if it is unloaded or under-loaded, because the vibration is high enough to cause the motor to lose synchronism. Loading the motor properly will dampen these vibrations. The load should require somewhere between 30% to 70% of the torque that the motor can produce, and the ratio of load inertia to rotor inertia should be between 1:1 and 10:1. For shorter, quicker moves, the ratio should be closer to 1:1 to 3:1.
A step motor will exhibit much stronger vibrations when the input pulse frequency matches the natural frequency of the motor. This phenomenon is called resonance. In resonance, the overshooting and undershooting become much greater, and the chance of missing steps is much higher. The resonance range may change slightly due to the damping effect of the load’s inertia.
Bedtime reading:-
Vibration and Resonance
When a step motor makes a move from one step to the next, the rotor doesn’t immediately stop. The rotor actually passes up its final position (overshoots), then goes past it in the opposite direction (undershoots), then moves back and forth until it finally comes to rest.
We call this “ringing,” and it occurs every time the motor takes a step. In most cases, the motor is commanded to move to the next step before it comes to a rest.
Unloaded, the motor exhibits a fair amount of ringing. This ringing translates into motor vibration. The motor will often stall if it is unloaded or under-loaded, because the vibration is high enough to cause the motor to lose synchronism. Loading the motor properly will dampen these vibrations. The load should require somewhere between 30% to 70% of the torque that the motor can produce, and the ratio of load inertia to rotor inertia should be between 1:1 and 10:1. For shorter, quicker moves, the ratio should be closer to 1:1 to 3:1.
A step motor will exhibit much stronger vibrations when the input pulse frequency matches the natural frequency of the motor. This phenomenon is called resonance. In resonance, the overshooting and undershooting become much greater, and the chance of missing steps is much higher. The resonance range may change slightly due to the damping effect of the load’s inertia.
Edited by bry1975 on Thursday 24th November 00:35
Edited by bry1975 on Thursday 24th November 00:36
There is a reason for its 'bounce'.
1. A battery change requires sending back to Sinn for the oil change.
2. Therefore they want the battery to last longer than normal.
3. They use a low-torque design so the interval is about 7 years (iirc).
4. The hand moves oil, then the oil back-fills the voids, this 'bounces' the hand.
It's a thrermocompensated COSC quartz, so not a crappy movement in actual fact.
"I made my last pilgrimage to Sinn today and talked to their Service Manager, Sebastian about the much maligned Hydro bounce. Sebastian said that the drift is mostly positional and is caused by the resistance of the oil. He said the hand pushes the oil ahead of it on the beat and between the beats the oil following in the wake pushes the hands forward until the pressure dissipates, that’s when the hand settles backward slightly. He said this could be overcome by using a movement with more torque but the life of the battery would be greatly reduced. He said this was the best balance their engineers could arrive at and still maintain COSC accuracy."
1. A battery change requires sending back to Sinn for the oil change.
2. Therefore they want the battery to last longer than normal.
3. They use a low-torque design so the interval is about 7 years (iirc).
4. The hand moves oil, then the oil back-fills the voids, this 'bounces' the hand.
It's a thrermocompensated COSC quartz, so not a crappy movement in actual fact.
"I made my last pilgrimage to Sinn today and talked to their Service Manager, Sebastian about the much maligned Hydro bounce. Sebastian said that the drift is mostly positional and is caused by the resistance of the oil. He said the hand pushes the oil ahead of it on the beat and between the beats the oil following in the wake pushes the hands forward until the pressure dissipates, that’s when the hand settles backward slightly. He said this could be overcome by using a movement with more torque but the life of the battery would be greatly reduced. He said this was the best balance their engineers could arrive at and still maintain COSC accuracy."
Edited by andy_s on Thursday 24th November 07:21
andy_s said:
There is a reason for its 'bounce'.
1. A battery change requires sending back to Sinn for the oil change.
2. Therefore they want the battery to last longer than normal.
3. They use a low-torque design so the interval is about 7 years (iirc).
4. The hand moves oil, then the oil back-fills the voids, this 'bounces' the hand.
It's a thrermocompensated COSC quartz, so not a crappy movement in actual fact.
"I made my last pilgrimage to Sinn today and talked to their Service Manager, Sebastian about the much maligned Hydro bounce. Sebastian said that the drift is mostly positional and is caused by the resistance of the oil. He said the hand pushes the oil ahead of it on the beat and between the beats the oil following in the wake pushes the hands forward until the pressure dissipates, that’s when the hand settles backward slightly. He said this could be overcome by using a movement with more torque but the life of the battery would be greatly reduced. He said this was the best balance their engineers could arrive at and still maintain COSC accuracy."
I like that answer, if there is an 'engineering' justification makes it much easier for my 'engineers' mentality to accept. It does keep very good time it has to be said!1. A battery change requires sending back to Sinn for the oil change.
2. Therefore they want the battery to last longer than normal.
3. They use a low-torque design so the interval is about 7 years (iirc).
4. The hand moves oil, then the oil back-fills the voids, this 'bounces' the hand.
It's a thrermocompensated COSC quartz, so not a crappy movement in actual fact.
"I made my last pilgrimage to Sinn today and talked to their Service Manager, Sebastian about the much maligned Hydro bounce. Sebastian said that the drift is mostly positional and is caused by the resistance of the oil. He said the hand pushes the oil ahead of it on the beat and between the beats the oil following in the wake pushes the hands forward until the pressure dissipates, that’s when the hand settles backward slightly. He said this could be overcome by using a movement with more torque but the life of the battery would be greatly reduced. He said this was the best balance their engineers could arrive at and still maintain COSC accuracy."
Edited by andy_s on Thursday 24th November 07:21
andy_s said:
There is a reason for its 'bounce'.
1. A battery change requires sending back to Sinn for the oil change.
2. Therefore they want the battery to last longer than normal.
3. They use a low-torque design so the interval is about 7 years (iirc).
4. The hand moves oil, then the oil back-fills the voids, this 'bounces' the hand.
It's a thrermocompensated COSC quartz, so not a crappy movement in actual fact.
"I made my last pilgrimage to Sinn today and talked to their Service Manager, Sebastian about the much maligned Hydro bounce. Sebastian said that the drift is mostly positional and is caused by the resistance of the oil. He said the hand pushes the oil ahead of it on the beat and between the beats the oil following in the wake pushes the hands forward until the pressure dissipates, that’s when the hand settles backward slightly. He said this could be overcome by using a movement with more torque but the life of the battery would be greatly reduced. He said this was the best balance their engineers could arrive at and still maintain COSC accuracy."
I thought it might be oil related, and also forgot it was a COSC movement. I can live with that, as the OP said the fact that it's an engineered solution to a problem IMO makes it more than acceptable, and is also demonstrative of Sinn's usual engineering.1. A battery change requires sending back to Sinn for the oil change.
2. Therefore they want the battery to last longer than normal.
3. They use a low-torque design so the interval is about 7 years (iirc).
4. The hand moves oil, then the oil back-fills the voids, this 'bounces' the hand.
It's a thrermocompensated COSC quartz, so not a crappy movement in actual fact.
"I made my last pilgrimage to Sinn today and talked to their Service Manager, Sebastian about the much maligned Hydro bounce. Sebastian said that the drift is mostly positional and is caused by the resistance of the oil. He said the hand pushes the oil ahead of it on the beat and between the beats the oil following in the wake pushes the hands forward until the pressure dissipates, that’s when the hand settles backward slightly. He said this could be overcome by using a movement with more torque but the life of the battery would be greatly reduced. He said this was the best balance their engineers could arrive at and still maintain COSC accuracy."
Edited by andy_s on Thursday 24th November 07:21
andy_s said:
Ha - I think they may mean 'cavitation' for the bounce and 'gravitation' for the difference in bounce as it goes uphill or down, relatively speaking.
Problem is, even in the vertical, it's all wrong. It's going down with the problem from 15 to 30 and up with the problem from 30 to 45 but otherwise it's just misaligned. It wouldn't be so bad if it did it all the time.Mine doesn't bother me at all. As said, it's all down to the oil filling.
I can quite happily put up with it, as the sharpness of the dial is really good, and that's a direct result from using the oil.
I would love it if one day they could come up with an automatic movement with an oil filled case. Best of both worlds then!
I can quite happily put up with it, as the sharpness of the dial is really good, and that's a direct result from using the oil.
I would love it if one day they could come up with an automatic movement with an oil filled case. Best of both worlds then!
sneijder said:
Wouldn't bother me too much to be honest, I was reading a thread on WUS last night though showing a nearly new one full of floaters.
My money would be on a U1 though given the choice.
Here : http://forums.watchuseek.com/f24/sinn-ux-s-gsg-9-i...My money would be on a U1 though given the choice.
Looks like a 'Friday afternoon' watch.
Whilst I was digging that out, I found this :
EZM BAPE ?
I'm going for a lie down.
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