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R0G

Original Poster:

3,863 posts

38 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
Not sure if this has been done before but it may be useful to some ....

I have extensive knowledge on this issue and already have a trailer towing clinic HERE

Trailers over 3500 kgs plated MAM weight come under different rules which is why all the trailers towed by B class vehicles , those of 3.5 tonnes and under, are not plated at more than 3500 kgs or 3.5 tonnes MAM

Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Vehicles in the B licence category will have the following information on a plate in the vehicle, in the handbook or on the V5 form.
Information can also be found on many internet vehicle specification sites.
Unladen or Kerb weight - although there is a slight difference in the two it is not that much
GVW - the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded
GTW - the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
Towing capacity - this is the ACTUAL weight that can be towed by the vehicle - it does not mean the trailer MAM weight.
None of the above weights must be exceeded


FOR B+E LICENCES
Where a towing capacity is listed then this would be a legal example:-
CAR has GVW of 2000 and a towing capacity of 1800
TRAILER has a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000
The trailer can be loaded with a maximum weight of 800

Where there is not a towing capacity listed then the GTW is used
GTW minus the GVW does not give the towing capacity unless the vehicle is fully laden
EXAMPLE: -
VAN has GVW of 3500 and GTW of 6000
TRAILER has MAM of 3500
The van and trailer can weigh 3000 each and be legal

FOR B LICENCES
The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so I have managed to find a simple way of determining whether a driver can tow something on a B only licence -

To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to say NO to the following:-
Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle?
Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs?
Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity?

Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found....

Towing vehicle -
Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800

Trailer -
Unladen/empty = 800
MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing)

Load trailer with 700 max

Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence -
The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500
The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing rule

I hope this helps those who are unsure of the rules

mph1977

7,069 posts

51 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
nice summary, well done Rog, let's have the original post as a sticky please !

lgw

305 posts

93 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
I agree very informative and easy to understand, just a query I am sure there are trailer maximum lengths and widths requirements though I cannot remember what they are.

R0G

Original Poster:

3,863 posts

38 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
lgw said:
I agree very informative and easy to understand, just a query I am sure there are trailer maximum lengths and widths requirements though I cannot remember what they are.
Yes there are
There are also other rules to towing such as towing ball weights etc but I decided just to keep it down to the licence and weight requirements as that seems to be the main area in which there can be some confusion or misunderstanding

mph1977

7,069 posts

51 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
lgw said:
I agree very informative and easy to understand, just a query I am sure there are trailer maximum lengths and widths requirements though I cannot remember what they are.
http://www.towitall.co.uk/law/law/dimensions.aspx

7m * 2.3 metres

which is a gnats nadger under 23 ft and a smidge wider than 7ft 6" in old money
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lgw

305 posts

93 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
Thanks

liner33

4,065 posts

85 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
What if there is no handbook available , no plate on the vehicle and no weights listed on the V5??

Can you just weigh the car at a weighbridge and go from there??



Aviz

1,484 posts

52 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
Very informative. I spent ages trying to work out what I could tow using my range rover. I passed on 98 so only have B. in the end I think I worked out I could tow upto 750kg , giving a MAM of 4250kg including the range rover. Everyone told me I could only have a MAM of 3500kg. Did I get it right ?

My trailer has no plate. Not sure what the tyre ratings are though ! I assume they need to addup to less than 750 ?

mph1977

7,069 posts

51 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
Aviz said:
Very informative. I spent ages trying to work out what I could tow using my range rover. I passed on 98 so only have B. in the end I think I worked out I could tow upto 750kg , giving a MAM of 4250kg including the range rover. Everyone told me I could only have a MAM of 3500kg. Did I get it right ?

My trailer has no plate. Not sure what the tyre ratings are though ! I assume they need to addup to less than 750 ?
you can tow an unbraked <750kg MAM trailer with a cat B vehicle regardless of it's MAM

which in theory allows you a MTM of 4250 - however this is only in relation to unbraked trailers

lgw

305 posts

93 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
As ROG has previously stated no trailer load plate use the tyre load index see link

http://www.rotationuk.com/gbu0-display/tyre_load_r...

Aviz

1,484 posts

52 months

[news] 
Monday 16th January 2012 quote quote all
mph1977 said:
you can tow an unbraked <750kg MAM trailer with a cat B vehicle regardless of it's MAM

which in theory allows you a MTM of 4250 - however this is only in relation to unbraked trailers
Thanks. 1 trailer is braked, an old indespension trailer, that has long since lost it's plate, but i suspect it used to be plated at around 1200. The other is a very well built DIY Job, similar size to a campng trailer, and not braked. To be honest, I only really use them for shifting ladders, and garden waste etc. I suspect I may need to check the tyre ratings on them both. If the tyres are rated less than 750, would I still be ok using the braked trailer with no plate ?

R0G

Original Poster:

3,863 posts

38 months

[news] 
Tuesday 17th January 2012 quote quote all
Aviz said:
Very informative. I spent ages trying to work out what I could tow using my range rover. I passed on 98 so only have B. in the end I think I worked out I could tow upto 750kg , giving a MAM of 4250kg including the range rover. Everyone told me I could only have a MAM of 3500kg. Did I get it right ?

My trailer has no plate. Not sure what the tyre ratings are though ! I assume they need to addup to less than 750 ?
3500+750=4250 is legal

The 750 must be the maximum MAM so I assume that the tyre load ratings must not add up to more than that - but that is a guess

Going over 750 kgs MAM is when the 3500 rules comes into play

Sgt Bilko

1,663 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 17th January 2012 quote quote all
A question if i may?

I have post 97 license. B cat as basic entitlement.

Last year i completed the D1 training and gained the category. I need to tow a box trailer in the future, is the category for trailers just "+E", or is it linked to the method of propulsion, ie. B+E or D1+E?

R0G

Original Poster:

3,863 posts

38 months

[news] 
Tuesday 17th January 2012 quote quote all
Sgt Bilko said:
A question if i may?

I have post 97 license. B cat as basic entitlement.

Last year i completed the D1 training and gained the category. I need to tow a box trailer in the future, is the category for trailers just "+E", or is it linked to the method of propulsion, ie. B+E or D1+E?
Different towing rules apply for D and C category vehicles

Those rules are very simple

Any trailer over 750 kgs MAM requires the driver to have the +E on the licence

That means towing a trailer over 750 with a D1 category vehicle requires the driver to have a D1+E licence

If you wish to get the +E you could pass the D1+E test which would upgrade your B to B+E
BUT BUT BUT
You will lose the B+E if you let the D4 medical for the D1 lapse

You can get it back if you pass a D4 medical at any time

If you pass the B+E test then that will last for life - well, as long as the B licence remains valid

If you think it is unfair that the B+E will be lost if the D4 medical lapses then so do I as the B+E is not a vocational licence and a test has been passed (D1+E) which is harder than B+E
I am in current email contact with the DfT over this because it is a situation they did not consider after the 1997 licence changes

General Price

1,429 posts

66 months

[news] 
Tuesday 17th January 2012 quote quote all
mph1977 said:
lgw said:
I agree very informative and easy to understand, just a query I am sure there are trailer maximum lengths and widths requirements though I cannot remember what they are.
http://www.towitall.co.uk/law/law/dimensions.aspx

7m * 2.3 metres

which is a gnats nadger under 23 ft and a smidge wider than 7ft 6" in old money
They changed the maximum width in 2010 from 2.3m to 2.55m

Syd knee

437 posts

88 months

[news] 
Tuesday 17th January 2012 quote quote all
ROG this is good stuf but may I just put this in to a practical example?

"SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner"

Means I, a 50 year old father who passed his test 30 odd years ago can sit beside my 21 year old daughter driving a Deffender with a horse box behind with L plates up.

I was told that "grandfather writes" had been remooved. Which internet person do I trust.

Glyn84

569 posts

63 months

[news] 
Tuesday 17th January 2012 quote quote all
Syd knee said:
Means I, a 50 year old father who passed his test 30 odd years ago can sit beside my 21 year old daughter driving a Deffender with a horse box behind with L plates up.

I was told that "grandfather writes" had been remooved. Which internet person do I trust.
The "grandfather writes" thing only effects the commercial categories such as C1, D1 etc, not the B license, so you are correct, with L plates your daughter can tow with you sitting alongside.

I'm in a similar position and wanted my dad to sit alongside me so I could tow a trailer so put the question to the DVLA and they said that was correct. Interestingly the DSA assured me that wasn't the case, so I called the DVLA again who re-confirmed you can. There is a lot of wonky information out there, even from government agencies it seems!

You can also tow on the motorway with L plates as you already have the full B category for the vehicle you're driving and the plates are for the +E (towing a trailer). This was confirmed by the DVLA (twice) and the DSA last week for me.

Sgt Bilko

1,663 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 17th January 2012 quote quote all
R0G said:
Sgt Bilko said:
A question if i may?

I have post 97 license. B cat as basic entitlement.

Last year i completed the D1 training and gained the category. I need to tow a box trailer in the future, is the category for trailers just "+E", or is it linked to the method of propulsion, ie. B+E or D1+E?
Different towing rules apply for D and C category vehicles

Those rules are very simple

Any trailer over 750 kgs MAM requires the driver to have the +E on the licence

That means towing a trailer over 750 with a D1 category vehicle requires the driver to have a D1+E licence

If you wish to get the +E you could pass the D1+E test which would upgrade your B to B+E
BUT BUT BUT
You will lose the B+E if you let the D4 medical for the D1 lapse

You can get it back if you pass a D4 medical at any time

If you pass the B+E test then that will last for life - well, as long as the B licence remains valid

If you think it is unfair that the B+E will be lost if the D4 medical lapses then so do I as the B+E is not a vocational licence and a test has been passed (D1+E) which is harder than B+E
I am in current email contact with the DfT over this because it is a situation they did not consider after the 1997 licence changes
Thanks for that. So as it seems, a D1+E can be used for a lower category (B+E), but if you do a B+E test you cannot use it for a D1+E?

Also, i've not heard anything about a requal medical for D1? I only drive a 17 str minibus.

vonhosen

28,501 posts

100 months

[news] 
Tuesday 17th January 2012 quote quote all
You'll need another medical at age 45 & then every five years.

R0G

Original Poster:

3,863 posts

38 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Sgt Bilko said:
Thanks for that. So as it seems, a D1+E can be used for a lower category (B+E), but if you do a B+E test you cannot use it for a D1+E?

Also, i've not heard anything about a requal medical for D1? I only drive a 17 str minibus.
Anyone who passed a DSA PCV test must have passed a D4 medical to gain the provisional
That medical must be kept current to keep the PCV or LGV valid
For those that passed the medical before the age of 40 a new medical will be required at ages 45 50 55 etc
For those who passed the medical after the age of 40 it will be every 5 years from that age which could be at ages 43 48 53 58 etc
After age 65 the medical is required every year and that includes those with pre 97 D1s and C1s


Correct about the B+E not counting for D1+E
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