RE: BMW's M diesels: the official details
Discussion
Cheib said:
I'd be staggered if the idea of of a 4WD RHD car isn't covered very early.....personally I think it's an economics thing and the "BMW UK don't want to spoil the image" thing is b
ks....it's just not economically viable. It's probably easier for Audi because the standard cars are FWD....don't know why I just think it might be. Also Audi's corporate parts/platform sharing bin gives them bigger margins than BMW in the first place. The other majore RHD markets are Australia and Japan....I think we can guess the deamnd for 4WD in Oz is bugger all....no idea about Japan, they obviously make a lot including 4WD performance cars but whether 4WD sits well with a premium brand in Japan I don't know.
BMW dabbled with the 4WD 5 series in the UK a while back. Guess the demand wasn't there for them to continue with it, in Europe the severity of the winters means demand for 4 wheel drive is greater.ks....it's just not economically viable. It's probably easier for Audi because the standard cars are FWD....don't know why I just think it might be. Also Audi's corporate parts/platform sharing bin gives them bigger margins than BMW in the first place. The other majore RHD markets are Australia and Japan....I think we can guess the deamnd for 4WD in Oz is bugger all....no idea about Japan, they obviously make a lot including 4WD performance cars but whether 4WD sits well with a premium brand in Japan I don't know. On the subject of RHD markets, isn't something like 40% of the world RHD? There are 3 countries in Europe. Ok, we've probably covered the biggest markets with Oz, Japan, UK and SA though.
Fox- said:
This is the best post in the thread.
Agreed, particularly regarding the evolution of mechanical engineering into market engineering (I've owned an E30 sport and an E46 sport - one was a great all rounder, though imperfect, but the other is the one I always looked back at after a drive).I like that BMW is making interesting engines and cars (I think the these qualify) and accept it has commercial considerations that are ultimately driving (hoho) all of of its decisions. But further to Zwolf's post, I do wonder about (a) how much longevity such complicated cars have in real terms (probably less of a concern for a manufacturer, more so for people who'll be buying or owning in 3-5 years+ from new) and (b) how thinly brand credibility can be spread before even "non-enthusiasts" start to see through it (and begin question the value of paying a premium for largely cosmetic differences - it may never happen but it makes me slightly sad all the same and BMW are not alone in this).
Dr Interceptor said:
MrRA said:
Driven hard they'll deliver very poor mpg.
Any car driven hard will deliver poor mpg.The difference with a performance diesel is that when you're not driving it hard, it can get 40mpg.
So if you lot in the UK won't (maybe?) get it, is it a Euro-only prospect? Seeing as it's LHD already, it would be nice to see them sell it in the US, though I fear it is probably wishful thinking. Jetta TDi SportWagens are very common where I live, so America is starting to wake up and realise today's diesels aren't the smokey, smelly, loud contraptions from the '80s.
Anybody know what the MPG figure translates to in the smaller US gallon?
A big, performance saloon that gets 35+MPG, but capable of 0-62 in under 5 seconds seems like a no-brainer to me.
Anybody know what the MPG figure translates to in the smaller US gallon?
A big, performance saloon that gets 35+MPG, but capable of 0-62 in under 5 seconds seems like a no-brainer to me.
Welshbeef said:
Isn't the new F30 335d Xdrive M sport the true weapon? 4.8seconds to 62 and the "mapped" versions and Alpina versions may up power to not far off 409bhp...+ 50mpg the only thing not to like is the RRP.
I can't help but feel that the whole straight line hero/power thing misses the point. A drivers car should be about sensations and the feel of things.It won't be a patch on the petrol ///M engines for sound, throttle response, hunger for revs and excitement.
The only thing that can be quoted with diesels is numbers and stats. Because that's all they've got.
If you want to attack me and the above statement, then have a go in a BMW that has a 45i (N62) engine. I honestly can't describe how much of a masterpiece it is. You'll forget the diesel stats/figures instantly.
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Wednesday 23 April 19:11
BeirutTaxi said:
Welshbeef said:
Isn't the new F30 335d Xdrive M sport the true weapon? 4.8seconds to 62 and the "mapped" versions and Alpina versions may up power to not far off 409bhp...+ 50mpg the only thing not to like is the RRP.
I can't help but feel that the whole straight line hero/power thing misses the point. A drivers car should be about sensations and the feel of things.It won't be a patch on the petrol ///M engines for sound, throttle response, hunger for revs and excitement.
The only thing that can be quoted with diesels is numbers and stats. Because that's all they've got.
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Wednesday 23 April 19:07
noise etc does play a huge roll, as does (in my opinion) rev range.......an 8k rpm screamer has always excited me more than a 4.5k rpm diesel, for example) as well as the nature of the power delivery but sheer performance always plays a role for me, but far is it from the be all and end all of said role...if that makes sense.
E65Ross said:
BeirutTaxi said:
Welshbeef said:
Isn't the new F30 335d Xdrive M sport the true weapon? 4.8seconds to 62 and the "mapped" versions and Alpina versions may up power to not far off 409bhp...+ 50mpg the only thing not to like is the RRP.
I can't help but feel that the whole straight line hero/power thing misses the point. A drivers car should be about sensations and the feel of things.It won't be a patch on the petrol ///M engines for sound, throttle response, hunger for revs and excitement.
The only thing that can be quoted with diesels is numbers and stats. Because that's all they've got.
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Wednesday 23 April 19:07
noise etc does play a huge roll, as does (in my opinion) rev range.......an 8k rpm screamer has always excited me more than a 4.5k rpm diesel, for example) as well as the nature of the power delivery but sheer performance always plays a role for me, but far is it from the be all and end all of said role...if that makes sense.
BeirutTaxi said:
I edited my above post btw Ross
And my point is, would that engine be as thrilling to you if it delivered its power in an identical fashion (ie shape of the torque curve over the same rev range was idential) except it was only 50% the power.......I doubt it'd be as exciting. But yes, it's more than just figures, totally with you on that one.Anyway, in terms of driving characteristics and torque these new turbo charged petrols are the same as the diesels.....lots and lots of low down grunt but over a wider rev range. Sound better than a diesel, less efficient, but more efficient (but not as good sounding) as the NA petrols of yesteryear...so an in-between.
E65Ross said:
BeirutTaxi said:
I edited my above post btw Ross
And my point is, would that engine be as thrilling to you if it delivered its power in an identical fashion (ie shape of the torque curve over the same rev range was idential) except it was only 50% the power.......I doubt it'd be as exciting. But yes, it's more than just figures, totally with you on that one.Anyway, in terms of driving characteristics and torque these new turbo charged petrols are the same as the diesels.....lots and lots of low down grunt but over a wider rev range. Sound better than a diesel, less efficient, but more efficient (but not as good sounding) as the NA petrols of yesteryear...so an in-between.
If I had a 200bhp engine that was exciting vs 300bhp one that wasn't... Well that would be like choosing between a small slice of home made Banoffee pie vs a gigantic frozen one from Asda.
BeirutTaxi said:
E65Ross said:
BeirutTaxi said:
I edited my above post btw Ross
And my point is, would that engine be as thrilling to you if it delivered its power in an identical fashion (ie shape of the torque curve over the same rev range was idential) except it was only 50% the power.......I doubt it'd be as exciting. But yes, it's more than just figures, totally with you on that one.Anyway, in terms of driving characteristics and torque these new turbo charged petrols are the same as the diesels.....lots and lots of low down grunt but over a wider rev range. Sound better than a diesel, less efficient, but more efficient (but not as good sounding) as the NA petrols of yesteryear...so an in-between.
If I had a 200bhp engine that was exciting vs 300bhp one that wasn't... Well that would be like choosing between a small slice of home made Banoffee pie vs a gigantic frozen one from Asda.
I find more fun in the corners etc but I also find having a decent amount of power fun as well. I don't think my car would be anywhere near as good if it only had 200bhp, even if the engine sounded and revved the same.
E65Ross said:
Agree. Although there is no denying that sheer acceleration can be a bit of a thrill in itself. For example, a car which can go from 0-100mph in 10 seconds will give some form of thrill compared to something which takes 60 seconds to do the same, if the engine sounds the same.
noise etc does play a huge roll, as does (in my opinion) rev range.......an 8k rpm screamer has always excited me more than a 4.5k rpm diesel, for example) as well as the nature of the power delivery but sheer performance always plays a role for me, but far is it from the be all and end all of said role...if that makes sense.
The problem for me on this one is provided your not destroying he speed limits you can only hit 8k revs in 1st and 2nd while 3rd is 100mph plus, on the road UK wise that's not a really usable scenario infact it could be argued that for the very vast majority of the time your driving your only using 70% or less of its power potential - Whereas in the F30 335d 4th gratis maxed out well well before 100mph as such your able to use all the power in up to 4 gears plus the best but is its huge torque/feeling of high rate of acceleration from low revs. noise etc does play a huge roll, as does (in my opinion) rev range.......an 8k rpm screamer has always excited me more than a 4.5k rpm diesel, for example) as well as the nature of the power delivery but sheer performance always plays a role for me, but far is it from the be all and end all of said role...if that makes sense.
If its a track sure high reving screamer is perfect but keeping within non ban territory on public roads in such a car gives you a problem.
Which is better a £20k ish E92 M3 or a brand new F31 335d Xdrive as the do all car while you are doing 15k plus miles a year. These are the two cars (or an E92/91 335d as its much cheaper) amazing cars though I'd guess in most situations the F30 335x will feel and be quicker than the E92 M3 on the open road whereas only when into big speed does it get M3 wins.
Welshbeef said:
The problem for me on this one is provided your not destroying he speed limits you can only hit 8k revs in 1st and 2nd while 3rd is 100mph plus, on the road UK wise that's not a really usable scenario infact it could be argued that for the very vast majority of the time your driving your only using 70% or less of its power potential - Whereas in the F30 335d 4th gratis maxed out well well before 100mph as such your able to use all the power in up to 4 gears plus the best but is its huge torque/feeling of high rate of acceleration from low revs.
If its a track sure high reving screamer is perfect but keeping within non ban territory on public roads in such a car gives you a problem.
Which is better a £20k ish E92 M3 or a brand new F31 335d Xdrive as the do all car while you are doing 15k plus miles a year. These are the two cars (or an E92/91 335d as its much cheaper) amazing cars though I'd guess in most situations the F30 335x will feel and be quicker than the E92 M3 on the open road whereas only when into big speed does it get M3 wins.
You've totally and utterly missed our (mine and BeirutTaxi's) points completely.If its a track sure high reving screamer is perfect but keeping within non ban territory on public roads in such a car gives you a problem.
Which is better a £20k ish E92 M3 or a brand new F31 335d Xdrive as the do all car while you are doing 15k plus miles a year. These are the two cars (or an E92/91 335d as its much cheaper) amazing cars though I'd guess in most situations the F30 335x will feel and be quicker than the E92 M3 on the open road whereas only when into big speed does it get M3 wins.
I agree with what you're saying about speed and performance, but (having been in a couple of 6 cylinder BMW diesels) they're very competent but never did they put a smile on my face, certainly compared to the E92 M3 which was just fantastic.
E65Ross said:
Welshbeef said:
The problem for me on this one is provided your not destroying he speed limits you can only hit 8k revs in 1st and 2nd while 3rd is 100mph plus, on the road UK wise that's not a really usable scenario infact it could be argued that for the very vast majority of the time your driving your only using 70% or less of its power potential - Whereas in the F30 335d 4th gratis maxed out well well before 100mph as such your able to use all the power in up to 4 gears plus the best but is its huge torque/feeling of high rate of acceleration from low revs.
If its a track sure high reving screamer is perfect but keeping within non ban territory on public roads in such a car gives you a problem.
Which is better a £20k ish E92 M3 or a brand new F31 335d Xdrive as the do all car while you are doing 15k plus miles a year. These are the two cars (or an E92/91 335d as its much cheaper) amazing cars though I'd guess in most situations the F30 335x will feel and be quicker than the E92 M3 on the open road whereas only when into big speed does it get M3 wins.
You've totally and utterly missed our (mine and BeirutTaxi's) points completely.If its a track sure high reving screamer is perfect but keeping within non ban territory on public roads in such a car gives you a problem.
Which is better a £20k ish E92 M3 or a brand new F31 335d Xdrive as the do all car while you are doing 15k plus miles a year. These are the two cars (or an E92/91 335d as its much cheaper) amazing cars though I'd guess in most situations the F30 335x will feel and be quicker than the E92 M3 on the open road whereas only when into big speed does it get M3 wins.
I agree with what you're saying about speed and performance, but (having been in a couple of 6 cylinder BMW diesels) they're very competent but never did they put a smile on my face, certainly compared to the E92 M3 which was just fantastic.
te off a shovel...Now I'm no stranger to grunt in a car so it wasn't just impressive compared to 'normal' cars, it was a genuinely impressive car. But lets face it, any 5 series this side of an M5 would never be a 'drivers car' but a lovely comfortable bruiser.
Take that a step forward and you have the E55 AMG I used to own - great in straight lines, crap for anything else - and I'm (hopefully) buying an SL55 this week simply because sometimes straight line grunt is great fun!
The problem is that people compare them with legendary petrol engines - no wonder they look bad! I mean, comparing a diesel to any M car of a similar age is unfair... compare them to similar power petrols and you will probably be rather impressed.
The noise isn't as good as a V8 petrol would be yes, but in the 535d (and all 35d's I'm sure) the sound is a smooth but deep sound that stops sounding like a diesel very soon after you start moving.... much like the V10 M5!
Well I much prefer the 35i engine to the 35d 
Similar power, similar torque curve over a wider band so, gear for gear, every bit as quick if not quicker and a much nicer noise! If you compare a turbo diesel to an NA petrol you'll say torque torque torque. In reality though it's the turbo that gives the shape of the curve, not the fuel. The fuel changes the amount of torque and rpm range.
Similar power, similar torque curve over a wider band so, gear for gear, every bit as quick if not quicker and a much nicer noise! If you compare a turbo diesel to an NA petrol you'll say torque torque torque. In reality though it's the turbo that gives the shape of the curve, not the fuel. The fuel changes the amount of torque and rpm range.
E65Ross said:
You've totally and utterly missed our (mine and BeirutTaxi's) points completely.
I agree with what you're saying about speed and performance, but (having been in a couple of 6 cylinder BMW diesels) they're very competent but never did they put a smile on my face, certainly compared to the E92 M3 which was just fantastic.
I do - I came about this when driving an E46 to its limits in a track and utterly loved it and I was grinning ear to ear. Thing is I don't drive like that on the road or if I did I'd either crash or lose my licence. I agree with what you're saying about speed and performance, but (having been in a couple of 6 cylinder BMW diesels) they're very competent but never did they put a smile on my face, certainly compared to the E92 M3 which was just fantastic.
I guess in drawn to incredible performance with efficiency (I'm used to 18mpg average of v+ only fuel...)
Think I need to have a look at an E92 M3 (DCT? C£20k) and then the F30 335d Xdrive - I wonder over a 3 year 45k mile timeframe which will overall cost less to own? M3 surely it will be £10k so £10k loss over 3 years while the F30 335d would be £40k plus with options and after 3 years how much ? £18-20k so £20-22k depreciation.
Next is fuel 45k miles the M3 will cost £6k more over that time frame
I'll assume that M3 will have double the
Therefore
£22k F30 335d depreciation
£5.3k fuel 45k miles
£390 3 years VED
Insurance assume the same
£500 5 year fixed price servicing
£28.2k total cost. £783pcm all in.
£10k M3 depreciation
£11.2k fuel cost
£1.2k VED
£1.5k servicing
£23.9k total cost £664pcm
Or E90 335d run out @£20k price
£12k depreciation
£6.6k fuel
£600 VED
£700 servicing
£19.9k total cost £553pcm
Or F30 330d used £32k price
£15k depreciation
£4.7k fuel
£360 VED
£400 servicing
£20,500 total cost £569 pcm
Or curve ball E92 335i used £16k?
£10k depreciation
£8.2k
£600 VED
£400 servicing
£19,200 total cost £533 PCM
Which is the best option?
Welshbeef said:
I do - I came about this when driving an E46 to its limits in a track and utterly loved it and I was grinning ear to ear. Thing is I don't drive like that on the road or if I did I'd either crash or lose my licence.
I guess in drawn to incredible performance with efficiency (I'm used to 18mpg average of v+ only fuel...)
Think I need to have a look at an E92 M3 (DCT? C£20k) and then the F30 335d Xdrive - I wonder over a 3 year 45k mile timeframe which will overall cost less to own? M3 surely it will be £10k so £10k loss over 3 years while the F30 335d would be £40k plus with options and after 3 years how much ? £18-20k so £20-22k depreciation.
Next is fuel 45k miles the M3 will cost £6k more over that time frame
I'll assume that M3 will have double the
Therefore
£22k F30 335d depreciation
£5.3k fuel 45k miles
£390 3 years VED
Insurance assume the same
£500 5 year fixed price servicing
£28.2k total cost. £783pcm all in.
£10k M3 depreciation
£11.2k fuel cost
£1.2k VED
£1.5k servicing
£23.9k total cost £664pcm
Or E90 335d run out @£20k price
£12k depreciation
£6.6k fuel
£600 VED
£700 servicing
£19.9k total cost £553pcm
Or F30 330d used £32k price
£15k depreciation
£4.7k fuel
£360 VED
£400 servicing
£20,500 total cost £569 pcm
Or curve ball E92 335i used £16k?
£10k depreciation
£8.2k
£600 VED
£400 servicing
£19,200 total cost £533 PCM
Which is the best option?
Put down the calculator and buy a used M3. That is all. I guess in drawn to incredible performance with efficiency (I'm used to 18mpg average of v+ only fuel...)
Think I need to have a look at an E92 M3 (DCT? C£20k) and then the F30 335d Xdrive - I wonder over a 3 year 45k mile timeframe which will overall cost less to own? M3 surely it will be £10k so £10k loss over 3 years while the F30 335d would be £40k plus with options and after 3 years how much ? £18-20k so £20-22k depreciation.
Next is fuel 45k miles the M3 will cost £6k more over that time frame
I'll assume that M3 will have double the
Therefore
£22k F30 335d depreciation
£5.3k fuel 45k miles
£390 3 years VED
Insurance assume the same
£500 5 year fixed price servicing
£28.2k total cost. £783pcm all in.
£10k M3 depreciation
£11.2k fuel cost
£1.2k VED
£1.5k servicing
£23.9k total cost £664pcm
Or E90 335d run out @£20k price
£12k depreciation
£6.6k fuel
£600 VED
£700 servicing
£19.9k total cost £553pcm
Or F30 330d used £32k price
£15k depreciation
£4.7k fuel
£360 VED
£400 servicing
£20,500 total cost £569 pcm
Or curve ball E92 335i used £16k?
£10k depreciation
£8.2k
£600 VED
£400 servicing
£19,200 total cost £533 PCM
Which is the best option?
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