Change in police numbers.
Discussion
On the back of:
"The number of police officers in England and Wales has fallen to its lowest level for a decade, official figures show.
There were 135,838 police officers in September 2011 - 6,012 fewer than the 141,850 there had been a year earlier."
Has any one noticed a difference? Are more crimes being committed or going unsolved?
"The number of police officers in England and Wales has fallen to its lowest level for a decade, official figures show.
There were 135,838 police officers in September 2011 - 6,012 fewer than the 141,850 there had been a year earlier."
Has any one noticed a difference? Are more crimes being committed or going unsolved?
The cuts are just starting to bite on the front line and there's at least two more years of it to come. There are numerous 'projects' going on at the moment to further slash capability. Officers, cars and equipment are all going. Of course, those doing the cutting have never been the sole Officer on duty for a 100 square miles.
They still seem to find money for Diversity managers though!
They still seem to find money for Diversity managers though!
Just wait till we have elected Commissioners. Even more politics in policing, just what we need.
Two most complained about things in neighbourhood meetings. Dog mess and speeding. Guess where your elected Politician will insist on resources being directed. If it doesn't win votes, then they will ignore it.
It's a disaster waiting to happen. But then again, a £100'000 salary plus the cost of all their staff. Let's just forget about the cuts for a while. I'm sure they won't abuse their expense accounts at all.
Two most complained about things in neighbourhood meetings. Dog mess and speeding. Guess where your elected Politician will insist on resources being directed. If it doesn't win votes, then they will ignore it.
It's a disaster waiting to happen. But then again, a £100'000 salary plus the cost of all their staff. Let's just forget about the cuts for a while. I'm sure they won't abuse their expense accounts at all.
Fittster said:
On the back of:
"The number of police officers in England and Wales has fallen to its lowest level for a decade, official figures show.
There were 135,838 police officers in September 2011 - 6,012 fewer than the 141,850 there had been a year earlier."
Has any one noticed a difference? Are more crimes being committed or going unsolved?
Another 'interesting' fact is that over recent years, under other cuts, retired police officers were brought in for various 'just' jobs, like warrants, statements, that sort of thing. They got paid a little over the minimum, the amount depending on location, and got a few expenses. This allowed police officers to be on response. A good idea everyone thought."The number of police officers in England and Wales has fallen to its lowest level for a decade, official figures show.
There were 135,838 police officers in September 2011 - 6,012 fewer than the 141,850 there had been a year earlier."
Has any one noticed a difference? Are more crimes being committed or going unsolved?
This time last year my force cut most of them, saving little money, but at the same time taking officers off the street to cope with the mundane jobs. Those dispensed with are not shown on in the above figures, nor is the fact that the officer having to do the job are not 'on the street'. On top of that the numbers of police has dropped, and will continue to drop for some time. So less officers available with fewer of those who are actually out on the street.
On top of that some police roles are not cut. Cameron, for instance, hasn't sufferend a 20%+ drop in prot officers. And this sort of ring fencing is rife. So althought there will be a 20% cut in manpower, the actually drop of numbers on the street will be considerably higher.
On top of that the figures already show a rise in crime. This has been put down to the recession but that it rubbish. The main cause of a rise in crime is the lack of police, mainly those on the streets but investigation as well.
The 20%+ drop in budget, especially as it is required to be completed in such a short time, is draconian. No force will be able to plan for the changes. They will all have to use 'quick fixes' initially then try and cope later. One major problem, for my force in particular and for others no doubt, is that they were forced along the PFI route under the previous government. This means that they cannot make any savings in the budget. So the 20%+ of total budget has to come out of a reduced percentage of operational policing.
Looked at logically it is a recipe for disaster but I feel certain that the government has looked at all the options and feels that it will be alright.
V88Dicky said:
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
When Police Authorities are told 'You need to make X savings', they don't cut jobs and facilities from the top down, but from the bottom up.
This.When Police Authorities are told 'You need to make X savings', they don't cut jobs and facilities from the top down, but from the bottom up.
Beleive me, if the public knew how few officers were on duty (and how hours were stretched to provide that cover) [i[before[/i] the cuts they'd likely have been horified in many places. Now it is, frankly, with the laughable custodial sentences handed to recidivists, a crimewave waiting to happen.
Digga said:
his.
Beleive me, if the public knew how few officers were on duty (and how hours were stretched to provide that cover) before the cuts they'd likely have been horified in many places. Now it is, frankly, with the laughable custodial sentences handed to recidivists, a crimewave waiting to happen.
About 1996 I was given the job of showing a number of Eastbourne Tound Table members around force HQ one evening. It was after 16.30 so there were no HQ staff available. The force had just got new equipment that displayed resource levels in real time and I wanted to play with it.Beleive me, if the public knew how few officers were on duty (and how hours were stretched to provide that cover) before the cuts they'd likely have been horified in many places. Now it is, frankly, with the laughable custodial sentences handed to recidivists, a crimewave waiting to happen.
So I got the group into the lecture theatre then showed them a fairly normal late turn in Eastbourne. I asked them initially how many cars would be patrolling their town at that moment. They were shocked to see the figures: just the two cars and three walkers. Once I pointed out that all but one unit was with prisoner it all went quiet. Then I showed them the grade II - respond within 20 minute - queue. We then had the situation where the only unit out and about required assistance with a stroppy prisoner. So two units had to leave their prisoners, go to the location, one dropped off and the other was told to maintain patrol.
I phoned the cells to find that the chap's prisoner had been released on bail due to the fact that it was unlikely, with no overtime available, that they could be dealt with that night.
I got a pull, as I knew that I would, from HQ PR. I was told that the fact that I had told the Round Table members the truth was against force policy as fear of crime (or rather lack of ability to respond to it) is a major problem. I said that in future whenever I was asked I would tell them that I could not answer their questions in case it frightened them.
Since then there have been three rounds of cuts to budgets. And that's before the current 20%+ series. What must be happening is that many calls no longer are responded to. There were not enought PCs on the streets before the 20%+ cuts. And now we are going thrugh the biggest cut in manpower the police has ever seen.
I think the events of last summer showed the public - and the criminals/disadvantaged youth [delete as applicable] exactly how thin the thin blue line really is. I'm surprised in many ways that Law and Order and the cuts in Police budgets hasn't been more political. Isn't this a classic story for the likes of the Express and Daily Mail? My MIL and GrandMIL read these two papers and consume their agenda without question. Neither of them have ever railed at me about the topic. Perhaps they're too busy worrying about muslims/benefits cheats etc. Shame.
Hi Derek. You sold it yet?
Hi Derek. You sold it yet?
Derek Smith said:
About 1996 I was given the job of showing a number of Eastbourne Tound Table members around force HQ one evening. It was after 16.30 so there were no HQ staff available. The force had just got new equipment that displayed resource levels in real time and I wanted to play with it.
So I got the group into the lecture theatre then showed them a fairly normal late turn in Eastbourne. I asked them initially how many cars would be patrolling their town at that moment. They were shocked to see the figures: just the two cars and three walkers. Once I pointed out that all but one unit was with prisoner it all went quiet. Then I showed them the grade II - respond within 20 minute - queue. We then had the situation where the only unit out and about required assistance with a stroppy prisoner. So two units had to leave their prisoners, go to the location, one dropped off and the other was told to maintain patrol.
I phoned the cells to find that the chap's prisoner had been released on bail due to the fact that it was unlikely, with no overtime available, that they could be dealt with that night.
I got a pull, as I knew that I would, from HQ PR. I was told that the fact that I had told the Round Table members the truth was against force policy as fear of crime (or rather lack of ability to respond to it) is a major problem. I said that in future whenever I was asked I would tell them that I could not answer their questions in case it frightened them.
Since then there have been three rounds of cuts to budgets. And that's before the current 20%+ series. What must be happening is that many calls no longer are responded to. There were not enought PCs on the streets before the 20%+ cuts. And now we are going thrugh the biggest cut in manpower the police has ever seen.
Derek, its interesting as you say there were two cars and three walkers on patrol for a late shift. Would it not have been better to have the three walkers in cars so that they could respond more quickly to where they were needed? Or am I misunderstanding it. So I got the group into the lecture theatre then showed them a fairly normal late turn in Eastbourne. I asked them initially how many cars would be patrolling their town at that moment. They were shocked to see the figures: just the two cars and three walkers. Once I pointed out that all but one unit was with prisoner it all went quiet. Then I showed them the grade II - respond within 20 minute - queue. We then had the situation where the only unit out and about required assistance with a stroppy prisoner. So two units had to leave their prisoners, go to the location, one dropped off and the other was told to maintain patrol.
I phoned the cells to find that the chap's prisoner had been released on bail due to the fact that it was unlikely, with no overtime available, that they could be dealt with that night.
I got a pull, as I knew that I would, from HQ PR. I was told that the fact that I had told the Round Table members the truth was against force policy as fear of crime (or rather lack of ability to respond to it) is a major problem. I said that in future whenever I was asked I would tell them that I could not answer their questions in case it frightened them.
Since then there have been three rounds of cuts to budgets. And that's before the current 20%+ series. What must be happening is that many calls no longer are responded to. There were not enought PCs on the streets before the 20%+ cuts. And now we are going thrugh the biggest cut in manpower the police has ever seen.
PS I live near Haywards Heath, as I understand it there are 2 cars covering Haywards Heath and Burgess Hill at night and they regularly have to go to East Grinstead at the weekends to deal with the clubs at chucking out time. They also have to take the prisoners they pick up to Crawley since they closed HH police station effectively so I can understand why people would be more than a little concerned!
richtea78 said:
Derek, its interesting as you say there were two cars and three walkers on patrol for a late shift. Would it not have been better to have the three walkers in cars so that they could respond more quickly to where they were needed? Or am I misunderstanding it.
PS I live near Haywards Heath, as I understand it there are 2 cars covering Haywards Heath and Burgess Hill at night and they regularly have to go to East Grinstead at the weekends to deal with the clubs at chucking out time. They also have to take the prisoners they pick up to Crawley since they closed HH police station effectively so I can understand why people would be more than a little concerned!
Hi, Rich. I'm moving up your way this year, if I sell my house that it. PS I live near Haywards Heath, as I understand it there are 2 cars covering Haywards Heath and Burgess Hill at night and they regularly have to go to East Grinstead at the weekends to deal with the clubs at chucking out time. They also have to take the prisoners they pick up to Crawley since they closed HH police station effectively so I can understand why people would be more than a little concerned!
As for the three walkers being better in cars, this is not always the best idea. A foot unit in the town centre can be much more effective at nipping trouble in the bud than a vehicle. Further, the officers might, probably were, new probationers and might not have had a driving course. Nowadays they just have a test and are let loose on the public. One or more might have been a local beat officer (I forget what they were called in those days).
On top of that, the division might well have only had two marked cars available. There would be vans but many officers avoided van courses.
As for the centralised lock ups, this is the norm in Sussex. There are a few cell blocks, one per division or so, and all prisoners have to be taken there. If a prisoner is arrested on the division boundary it can take over an hour even outside of rush hours, to get the prisoner there. Mind you, when the cell block from Brighton was in Brighton, a PC once took over an hour to get a prisoner to the nick and even then got out of the vehicle in St James Street, about two hundred yards away, due to traffic.
It was the only response to Home Office demands.
Once there, the officers often have to queue for a long time before getting their prisoners booked in.
Funny how this drop is supposedly such a disaster, because apart from 2004 to 2010 when Labour were on a mission to have everyone working for the state, we've always had less police than this. If such an insignificant drop has any appreciable effect on the delivery of front-line services then there are serious questions to be asked about how the police are being managed and the commitment of individual officers. It's very easy to cry 'THE CUTS' 'THE CUTS' and sit on your bum and gloat as society collapses so you can make a political point isn't it!
I can state with total certainty that I won't be doing any gloating whatsoever if society collapses, "THE CUTS" "THE CUTS" or not.
I'd be very surprised indeed if Police Authorities will be able to manage this genuine reduction in their budgets whilst maintaining head count and officers on patrol. I'll be pleasantly surprised if politicians are able to make meaningful headway into reducing administration to allow a more efficient use of resources while these cuts are implemented. I truly hope there will be no significant changes to crime figures.
(I'm rather afraid) We shall see.
I'd be very surprised indeed if Police Authorities will be able to manage this genuine reduction in their budgets whilst maintaining head count and officers on patrol. I'll be pleasantly surprised if politicians are able to make meaningful headway into reducing administration to allow a more efficient use of resources while these cuts are implemented. I truly hope there will be no significant changes to crime figures.
(I'm rather afraid) We shall see.
scenario8]I think the events of last summer showed the public - and the criminals/disadvantaged youth [delete as applicable said:
exactly how thin the thin blue line really is. I'm surprised in many ways that Law and Order and the cuts in Police budgets hasn't been more political. Isn't this a classic story for the likes of the Express and Daily Mail? My MIL and GrandMIL read these two papers and consume their agenda without question. Neither of them have ever railed at me about the topic. Perhaps they're too busy worrying about muslims/benefits cheats etc. Shame.
Hi Derek. You sold it yet?
There have been offers although none to my minimum so they didn't get through to me. I'm told that there are few buyers around but that numbers are beginning to rise. I can't moan as I told the estate agents that I was after selling in the middle of the year so would not take an offer until later. One couple who made an offer have gone into rented accommodation, contract for 3 mnths, and are intending to wait me out. It's reassuring. I've always got a long stop, although at 40,000 less than I'm asking and all but 20 below my minimum it's a bit more of a long stop.Hi Derek. You sold it yet?
There's nothing as big around my way at my price but smaller accommodation is there at a little more. Two places have recently sold, above my price, but after over a year's wait. So no worries at the moment.
I've told the estate agent I don't want anyone looking around who can't afford the place or haven't acepted an offer on theirs. This limits the visits but not to any amount that matters.
Mr GrimNasty said:
Funny how this drop is supposedly such a disaster, because apart from 2004 to 2010 when Labour were on a mission to have everyone working for the state, we've always had less police than this. If such an insignificant drop has any appreciable effect on the delivery of front-line services then there are serious questions to be asked about how the police are being managed and the commitment of individual officers. It's very easy to cry 'THE CUTS' 'THE CUTS' and sit on your bum and gloat as society collapses so you can make a political point isn't it!
And herein lies the problem. People with no idea what's going on spout Cameron's b
ks. 20& an insignificant drop. I wouldn't like to see what you consider a major cut to be. In the 'good old days', we didn't have to be mental health workers, surrogate parents, teachers, marriage guidance councillors, alcoholic councillors, babysitters, taxis and every other role that society has now deemed necessary. Occassionally, we get to deal with crime.
Interesting that a decline in numbers hasnt seen a rise in crime.
I'll wager that a decline in numbers means that people arent getting picked up as often for drugs possession, or for other recordable crimes whereby feet on the ground detect them.
A combination of that and also ignoring crime recording standards, therefore writing stuff off as crime related instead.
I'll wager that a decline in numbers means that people arent getting picked up as often for drugs possession, or for other recordable crimes whereby feet on the ground detect them.
A combination of that and also ignoring crime recording standards, therefore writing stuff off as crime related instead.
Elroy Blue said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Funny how this drop is supposedly such a disaster, because apart from 2004 to 2010 when Labour were on a mission to have everyone working for the state, we've always had less police than this. If such an insignificant drop has any appreciable effect on the delivery of front-line services then there are serious questions to be asked about how the police are being managed and the commitment of individual officers. It's very easy to cry 'THE CUTS' 'THE CUTS' and sit on your bum and gloat as society collapses so you can make a political point isn't it!
And herein lies the problem. People with no idea what's going on spout Cameron's bks. 20& an insignificant drop. I wouldn't like to see what you consider a major cut to be. In the 'good old days', we didn't have to be mental health workers, surrogate parents, teachers, marriage guidance councillors, alcoholic councillors, babysitters, taxis and every other role that society has now deemed necessary. Occassionally, we get to deal with crime.
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