Putin, Russia and the West
Discussion
Anybody been watching this on the Beeb? Two episodes out of four shown so far and it's fascinating IMO, they get a large number of very senior people in the Russian, US, UK and former Soviet states to speak very candidly and dispassionately about the political change in those regions over the last 20 years and the ongoing struggle between the Western and Russian governments. Well worth looking up on iPlayer if you're interested in that sort of thing.
Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice talk very candidly. Very funny to see them in that light.
The whole show has made me realise how human politicians are and how much that factors into some things.
So interesting, but is making me a bit scared of russia! Putin seems like he wants to restore Russia as a dominant force.
He's obviously very clever.
The whole show has made me realise how human politicians are and how much that factors into some things.
So interesting, but is making me a bit scared of russia! Putin seems like he wants to restore Russia as a dominant force.
He's obviously very clever.
Agreed that it's interesting - but IMO has a somewhat "western" viewpoint on Russia. Admittedly it would be difficult to get a more open & frank view from within Russia looking outwards.
My wife (Russian) is watching with interest to see which way the series goes but isn't expecting any significant revelations.
My wife (Russian) is watching with interest to see which way the series goes but isn't expecting any significant revelations.
Putin has been good in some respects but from a west point of view not so good. He is what you could class as 'old school' as dictated by his roots. He is old KGB so has an in built hatred of free press/tv. He also is slowing rebuilding the armed forces he is scraping all the old kit and buying new and transforming the army into a volunter force.
I think the most amazing thing he's doing is the Nashi. It seems to me he's setting up the youth to take Russia over when he dies or steps down.
Eventually him and his old Soviet time buddies are going to die and the last memories of what it was like to be Soviets with all the power in the world will die with them.
The Nashi seems to be an attempt to keep the mentality alive.
Eventually him and his old Soviet time buddies are going to die and the last memories of what it was like to be Soviets with all the power in the world will die with them.
The Nashi seems to be an attempt to keep the mentality alive.
Frankeh said:
So, opinions? Seems to me that Putin has been pretty good for Russia.
as a person who lived in Russia - no. he's been pretty good to himself and his friends. this can give you a very good idea
http://www.putin-itogi.ru/putin-corruption-an-inde...
right now young people don't want to do any business, they all want to work for the government - army, police, customs, tax authorities. And when you have to contact Russian authorities to, let's say bring some goods into Russia, it is such a torture to archive anything.
There is two tier society: elite (those in top level of state companies) and the rest.
those young idiots from Nashi - all they want is to take over of gas and oil sales when Putin dies.
Since he's been in power he's basically halved unemployment:
GDP has gone up ~700%
Maybe he's not the best there could be, but he seems to know what he's doing. I'm reading through the link that was posted above now, but when the name putin is in the title of the website I'm not sure how reliable a source it is. Not sure how it can claim to be independent either when it's written by russians and on a seemingly anti Putin website.
GDP has gone up ~700%
Maybe he's not the best there could be, but he seems to know what he's doing. I'm reading through the link that was posted above now, but when the name putin is in the title of the website I'm not sure how reliable a source it is. Not sure how it can claim to be independent either when it's written by russians and on a seemingly anti Putin website.
Willy Nilly said:
Other than keeping himself in power, why is Putin so afraid of democracy?
Why are most politicians?
Frankeh said:
Well oil's gone up ~300% in that time so it clearly doesn't account for the whole increase.
When Yeltsin (and the other two) slipped the rug out from under Gorbachev and the USSR he opened up Russia to the West and it got arse f
ked for years. Yeltsin left it in such a bad mess the only way was up!"This programme also explored how economic freedom had been used in Russia and the problems this had introduced. A set of policies known as "shock therapy" were brought in mainly by outsiders, which had the effect of destroying the social safety net that existed in most other western nations and Russia. In the latter, the sudden removal of e.g. the subsidies for basic goods caused their prices to rise enormously, making them hardly affordable for ordinary people. An economic crisis escalated during the 1990s and some people were paid in goods rather than money. Then-president Boris Yeltsin was accused by his parliamentary deputies of "economic genocide", due to the large numbers of people now too poor to eat. Yeltsin responded to this by removing parliament's power and becoming increasingly autocratic.
At the same time, many formerly state-owned industries were sold to private businesses, often at a fraction of their real value. Ordinary people, often in financial difficulties, would sell shares, which to them were worthless, for cash, without appreciating their true value. This ended up with the rise of the "Oligarchs"—super-rich businessmen who attributed their rise to the sell offs of the '90s. It resulted in a polarisation of society into the poor and ultra-rich, and indirectly led to a more autocratic style of government under Vladimir Putin, which, while less free, promised to provide people with dignity and basic living requirements."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_%28televisio...
Edited by Halb on Friday 27th January 22:50
you need to look more into details rather than just general statistics:
Oil went from 17USD per barrel to 120 at least (500-600%). Gas - same story. Metal ores - same story.
Russia is increasing oil output - almost two times it was before Putin.
Unemloyement decrease - because more positions are open in public sector.
Most independent oil companies had to sold their oil sources to state company Rosneft. Gasprom is a monopoly. Price of electricity unit for doemstic use is higher than in some European countries (as example - Norway). This is not just some info from internet. MAte of me went from Russia to open a small factory in Norway and it can be cheaper there to produce than in Russia. How crazy it is?
Price of petrol - 1USD per litre (in the biggest oil prducing country)
Salary - still something like 500USD per month outside of biggest cities. It is higer in Moscow in SaintPetersburg.
When I lived there, I lived not far from Norway and Finland and we were buying some food products there, because it was cheaper.
He is as good as Hitler was good for Germany before WWII. We still enjoy autobans built then. Heavy industry was on increase then.
Quality of life is not good. I mean everyday life, small things. Central streets of moscow are usually closed for 2-3 hours for anyone. Police is making a coridor so Putin can be driven to work. MP are driven in black MBs with blue lights and everyone should give them a way. It is normal for big business connected with the government to have the same. Police has right to take you in the police station if you don't have documents with you.
Police rutinely punch and kick people that might be suspected in something. Violence and greed has become a norm.
sorry, but after learning statistics in uni (Russian one
) I can tell - you can use it right and you can use it as right as you want. and it doens't show real picture.
Nashi - their position towards any people with a different point of view: anyone who has such position is either paid by West or complete idiot who can't understand how Putin is good. They have annual camp (thousands of them) in the forest in summer time and they are shown films there how West wants to destroy Russia. Their are little zombies who is ready to bite anyone who is not with them.
Oil went from 17USD per barrel to 120 at least (500-600%). Gas - same story. Metal ores - same story.
Russia is increasing oil output - almost two times it was before Putin.
Unemloyement decrease - because more positions are open in public sector.
Most independent oil companies had to sold their oil sources to state company Rosneft. Gasprom is a monopoly. Price of electricity unit for doemstic use is higher than in some European countries (as example - Norway). This is not just some info from internet. MAte of me went from Russia to open a small factory in Norway and it can be cheaper there to produce than in Russia. How crazy it is?
Price of petrol - 1USD per litre (in the biggest oil prducing country)
Salary - still something like 500USD per month outside of biggest cities. It is higer in Moscow in SaintPetersburg.
When I lived there, I lived not far from Norway and Finland and we were buying some food products there, because it was cheaper.
He is as good as Hitler was good for Germany before WWII. We still enjoy autobans built then. Heavy industry was on increase then.
Quality of life is not good. I mean everyday life, small things. Central streets of moscow are usually closed for 2-3 hours for anyone. Police is making a coridor so Putin can be driven to work. MP are driven in black MBs with blue lights and everyone should give them a way. It is normal for big business connected with the government to have the same. Police has right to take you in the police station if you don't have documents with you.
Police rutinely punch and kick people that might be suspected in something. Violence and greed has become a norm.
sorry, but after learning statistics in uni (Russian one
) I can tell - you can use it right and you can use it as right as you want. and it doens't show real picture.Nashi - their position towards any people with a different point of view: anyone who has such position is either paid by West or complete idiot who can't understand how Putin is good. They have annual camp (thousands of them) in the forest in summer time and they are shown films there how West wants to destroy Russia. Their are little zombies who is ready to bite anyone who is not with them.
I did find it funny how one of them started spreading the idea of democracy and was funding pro democracy groups. These guys aren't dumb. They know that it's much easier to influence or trick a group of people (The russian population) than it is to trick a single person (Putin).
I don't believe his sudden interest in democracy was anything more than a way to line his own pockets.
I don't believe his sudden interest in democracy was anything more than a way to line his own pockets.
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